omni Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 ==But here's the thing: She does not seem to be encouraging others to leave the LDS Church because "her views have evolved" (vis-à-vis a testimony of or belief in the truth claims of the LDS Church). Instead, she is encouraging others to leave the Church for trivial reasons (such as a present lack of "sparked joy", or to punish the leaders of the Church), or even no reason whatsoever. I don't see her encouraging others to leave for trivial reasons, in fact she states, "The decision for a person to stay active in the Mormon church should be based on an honest evaluation of its benefits, and not fear." I would absolutely recommend this advice to someone who is a member of an organization that requires significant time and financial contributions and is not experiencing joy. ==By way of analogy: If a person, who has recently gone through a divorce, went around encouraging others to divorce their spouse if the marriage is currently not "sparking joy," then that would be irresponsible and unwise advice. I say this not because all marriages everywhere are perfect, but because marriage is an important institution, and ought not to be terminated for trivial reasons or no reason whatsoever. Again, I don't see her telling people to leave for trivial reasons. In the article she states, "I don't wish for Mormon women to follow me — or to follow anyone. I want them to follow their own hearts, aspirations and dreams. Sometimes the culmination of that journey will lead them out of the church — and that's O.K.!" ==Here's another one: Let's say there is a man who has been divorced for several years and is presently estranged from both his ex-wife and his children (most of whom are now young adults). The estrangement has been going on for quite a while, so it is somewhat entrenched in the fellow, but he still feels a desire to have some relationship with his children. However, due to prior arguments, slights and acrimonies, he presently feels no "spark" of "joy" in relation to his children. By Kate Kelly's rationale, he should abandon his role as father to his children "with (his) head held high." But this would be bad / unwise / irresponsible advice. As I stated earlier, I think a much more apt analogy would be to compare a similar situation using another religion or atheism. Would it be wrong for a former atheist or JW to encourage current atheists /JW's to leave those ideologies if it no longer sparked joy? If that isn't the case, then it would seem you're holding Mormonism to a different standard.
Avatar4321 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 She wants people to follow their own desires, we want people to follow Christ.Where does Christ fall in her belief system? 4
Russell C McGregor Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 She wants people to follow their own desires, we want people to follow Christ.Where does Christ fall in her belief system? Evidently, by the wayside. 1
smac97 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) I just came across this quote from President Harold B. Lee in 1970 (then the First Counselor in the First Presidency and President of the Council of the Twelve) (emphases added): We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. There will be, as President Tanner has said, "Hypocrites, those professing, but secretly are full of dead men's bones." (Matt. 23:27) We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church. Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, "as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me—as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith." (D&C 21:4-5) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory." (D&C 21:6) Sound counsel, that. And prescient, I think. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 27, 2015 by smac97 2
Sleeper Cell Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I don't see her encouraging others to leave for trivial reasons, in fact she states, "The decision for a person to stay active in the Mormon church should be based on an honest evaluation of its benefits, and not fear." I would absolutely recommend this advice to someone who is a member of an organization that requires significant time and financial contributions and is not experiencing joy. Again, I don't see her telling people to leave for trivial reasons. In the article she states, "I don't wish for Mormon women to follow me — or to follow anyone. I want them to follow their own hearts, aspirations and dreams. Sometimes the culmination of that journey will lead them out of the church — and that's O.K.!" As I stated earlier, I think a much more apt analogy would be to compare a similar situation using another religion or atheism. Would it be wrong for a former atheist or JW to encourage current atheists /JW's to leave those ideologies if it no longer sparked joy? If that isn't the case, then it would seem you're holding Mormonism to a different standard. Shouldn’t one’s beliefs/ideologies be based on truth (not on a "what's in it for me" cost-benefit analysis)? In my experience, Mormons do not advocate people leave atheism or other religions if they do not spark joy or, even because some of their beliefs are wrong. They want people to become Mormons, not ex-Catholics, or ex-protestants. No Mormon ever suggested that I resign or in any way renounce my previous church affiliation. For that matter, I can count on one hand the times I have heard Mormons denounce their former churches. Far more typical are people like my former bishop and stake president (a former Catholic). I have never heard him speak of his former church in any other way than with love and gratitude. On the other hand, KK and the “mass resignation” group does not seem to offer much to replace the church they oppose. This is not to say that ex-Mormons cannot find joy and fulfillment outside the Church. But, in my experience, one gets far more joy and fulfillment from being for something than against something 3
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I just came across this quote from President Harold B. Lee in 1970 (then the First Counselor in the First Presidency and President of the Council of the Twelve) (emphasis added): We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. There will be, as President Tanner has said, "Hypocrites, those professing, but secretly are full of dead men's bones." (Matt. 23:27) We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church. Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, "as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me—as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith." (D&C 21:4-5) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory." (D&C 21:6) Sound counsel, that. And prescient, I think. Thanks, -Smac So, you think she was against the church all along and just pretending to believe?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 So, you think she was against the church all along and just pretending to believe?She may have been believing at one point in her life. But as of recently before her excommunication I think it is exactly as you say.
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 She may have been believing at one point in her life. But as of recently before her excommunication I think it is exactly as you say. I don't have any special insight into Kate Kelly's thought processes, and I doubt anyone else does, either.
KevinG Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I have a slightly different take. By her actions and words she fervently believes what she teaches. What she teaches is however, not compatible with the policies and practices of the church today. She has by virtue of her beliefs and actions separated herself from the body of the LDS Church. Separation is not always an instant thing it is gradual. It is also not a permanent thing and her story is not over. 4
smac97 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Posted July 27, 2015 So, you think she was against the church all along and just pretending to believe? I was not thinking of Kate Kelly in particular. Thanks, -Smac 3
stemelbow Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I have a slightly different take. By her actions and words she fervently believes what she teaches. What she teaches is however, not compatible with the policies and practices of the church today. She has by virtue of her beliefs and actions separated herself from the body of the LDS Church. Separation is not always an instant thing it is gradual. It is also not a permanent thing and her story is not over. This is well stated. Shoot, about the moment I'm sitting in Church, quite often, I get the desire to pack my bags and never look back. Somehow I remain and somehow I manage to be actively involved (both a SS instructor for youth and a councilor in the EQ). I personally don't see myself leaving, but my thought process and my perspective on Church in general feels about a million miles away from what they were 20 years ago (as I started my mission). My hope going forward is in that my thought process and perspective on Church will be another million miles away from where it is now in another 20. I don't need people begrudging me for my journey and neither does Kelly, I figure.
MorningStar Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 We've seen people try to deceive others on this board like people claiming they were raised in the church and left. And then it turns out they don't know terms like "ward" and "cultural hall" or the words to Popcorn Popping. I wouldn't be that shocked at all if Kate Kelly left the church spiritually a long time ago and is an opportunist who wanted attention. And a free laptop. Who knows? What I do know is that I don't trust people in the church who act like they are above General Authorities. They might be intentionally deceptive or haven't actually realized themselves that they have one foot out the door. 4
ttribe Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 We've seen people try to deceive others on this board like people claiming they were raised in the church and left. And then it turns out they don't know terms like "ward" and "cultural hall" or the words to Popcorn Popping. Can you point to an example of this?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) I don't have any special insight into Kate Kelly's thought processes, and I doubt anyone else does, either.Actions as well as her words John. I don't have any special insight either but what I could tell is that the ship of belief sailed long ago. Edited July 27, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
ttribe Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Actions not words John. I don't have any special insight either but what I could tell is that the ship of belief sailed long ago. How "long ago" and how can you tell?
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Actions as well as her words John. I don't have any special insight either but what I could tell is that the ship of belief sailed long ago. I have no idea, and I don't think you do, either. Getting excommunicated had to be a punch to the gut, and the aftermath would have involved a lot of soul-searching, I would think. I just don't think we can say what she was thinking when. Yes, you disagree with her actions before and after she was excommunicated, but I don't think that means she wasn't sincere in her faith. I've said before that I think she misunderstood how the church works, but I don't think that necessarily says anything about her faith. In all sincerity, I think there were no winners here: both Kate Kelly and the church lost. 1
MorningStar Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Can you point to an example of this? I could do a board search, but not sure what's there anymore. I remember one person in particular who went by "Darby" I think it was. They said they were raised in the church their entire life and now they knew the truth. They had a long list of all the ways the church ws wrong and said something about their "congregation" rather than their ward. They didn't know basic Mormon lingo, so it was an obvious lie. After I asked them if they would take a simple quiz (which couldn't be answered easily by googling), they declined. That's when a new user showed up and messaged me saying they were Darby's mom and that they were going through a rough time in the church and to please be nice to them. Another obvious ploy. I also remember another guy (don't remember the name) admitting he lied about being a member when we all called him on it. It's not easy to fake being an ex-Mormon. So he hoped to keep conversing with us, but we all felt like, "Why would we talk to you about this when the first thing you did was lie to us?" We've seen it here at least a few times because they seem to think it carries more weight to state they used to be a member and found the truth rather than just telling us they're Evangelical Christian and think the church is wrong.
ttribe Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I could do a board search, but not sure what's there anymore. I remember one person in particular who went by "Darby" I think it was. They said they were raised in the church their entire life and now they knew the truth. They had a long list of all the ways the church ws wrong and said something about their "congregation" rather than their ward. They didn't know basic Mormon lingo, so it was an obvious lie. After I asked them if they would take a simple quiz (which couldn't be answered easily by googling), they declined. That's when a new user showed up and messaged me saying they were Darby's mom and that they were going through a rough time in the church and to please be nice to them. Another obvious ploy. I also remember another guy (don't remember the name) admitting he lied about being a member when we all called him on it. It's not easy to fake being an ex-Mormon. So he hoped to keep conversing with us, but we all felt like, "Why would we talk to you about this when the first thing you did was lie to us?" We've seen it here at least a few times because they seem to think it carries more weight to state they used to be a member and found the truth rather than just telling us they're Evangelical Christian and think the church is wrong. Okay. Well, certainly a couple of these kinds of farces are to be expected on a public board. My fear in seeing it brought up is that it will be interpreted as the norm; which I'm pretty sure it isn't.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) I have no idea, and I don't think you do, either. Getting excommunicated had to be a punch to the gut, and the aftermath would have involved a lot of soul-searching, I would think. I just don't think we can say what she was thinking when. Yes, you disagree with her actions before and after she was excommunicated, but I don't think that means she wasn't sincere in her faith. I've said before that I think she misunderstood how the church works, but I don't think that necessarily says anything about her faith. In all sincerity, I think there were no winners here: both Kate Kelly and the church lost.So, you are of the PC opinion that you cannot know some one's beliefs by their words and actions? Oh well. I guess I can't tell if you are a believer or not any more. Not sure why I even bothered to carry on this conversation. Carry on. Edited July 27, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Okay. Well, certainly a couple of these kinds of farces are to be expected on a public board. My fear in seeing it brought up is that it will be interpreted as the norm; which I'm pretty sure it isn't. Next thing you know, we'll be talking about people who pretend to be large green rabbits with digestive troubles.
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 So, you are of the PC opinion that you cannot know some one's beliefs by their words and actions? Oh well. I guess I can't tell if you are a believer or not any more. Not sure why I even bothered to carry on this conversation. Carry on. PC? I've stated my opinion: I have no idea what she was or was not thinking before or after she was excommunicated. Heck, I barely paid any attention to her. I think she badly misunderstood how the church works: people don't effect change by agitating for it. But her misunderstanding doesn't necessarily mean she was not a believer. I don't know. Nobody can, really.
MorningStar Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 PC? I've stated my opinion: I have no idea what she was or was not thinking before or after she was excommunicated. Heck, I barely paid any attention to her. I think she badly misunderstood how the church works: people don't effect change by agitating for it. But her misunderstanding doesn't necessarily mean she was not a believer. I don't know. Nobody can, really. Although she associated with Margaret Toscano, so she had to have some idea of how it worked. I'm not sure why she was surprised by her excommunication.
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Although she associated with Margaret Toscano, so she had to have some idea of how it worked. I'm not sure why she was surprised by her excommunication. Never underestimate the human capacity for self-deception.
MorningStar Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Never underestimate the human capacity for self-deception.No, I don't think that's a thing. On an unrelated note, I'm rich, famous, and 25!
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 No, I don't think that's a thing. On an unrelated note, I'm rich, famous, and 25! What I mean is that, if people want to believe something badly enough, they will ignore all evidence to the contrary. Someone who really wants to believe they can agitate for change the church from within is likely to ignore a lot of the reality of the situation.
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