Word Of Wisdom Poll

[Kiwi]

Try being a diabetic, who has given up caffeine, in a restaurant and you will feel otherwise.  Even in Utah it wasn't all that common to find a low sugar, caffeine-free soda in a restaurant...

 

It was quite often than we didn't find caffeine-free diet soda in Kmart, Target (without groceries), Staples etc. And try to find it cold! It wasn't that I would buy drinks everywhere, but after I gave up caffeine I started looking to see just what was available...

 

Here in AZ I have yet to find a restauarnt that has a diet caffeine-free soda.

 

Then look at the grocery shelves.  (This was a blessing living in Utah where I always found at least 1 caffeine-free diet soda, but sometimes not more than one)  There are a lot alternatives there compared to 10 years ago, which isn't saying much.  But don't just assume that a diet orange or lemon lime is caffeine free.  Diet Sunkist has it.  It has more caffeine than regular sunkist.  In fact many diet drinks have more caffeine than their regular full sugar partners.  An awful lot of the flavored sparkling diet "waters" have caffeine or tea in them.  

 

And don't just assume that because you looked at the label when you bough a soda at Safeway and found no caffeine that the soda at Albertsons will have it caffeine-free as well.  Barq's rootbeer is sometime caffeinated and sometimes not.  

 

 

Good points Rain; thank you for setting me straight on my erroneous assumption.

 

I don't often drink sodas myself, and don't like the taste of artificial sweeteners, so on the odd occasion that I do drink a soda I don't so much mind the high sugar content. So to be honest I've never actually shopped for sodas that were both caffeine-free and sugar-free. But because I'd seen quite a few different caffeine-free sodas and quite a few different sugar-free sodas, I'd assumed that there would also be quite a few sodas that were both caffeine-free and sugar-free. My mistake.

 

I personally tend to just drink water, and when I want to treat myself, I prefer fruit juice over soda.

[Thinking]

I claim no originality for the following. I heard it from somebody, who heard it from somebody, who...

 

What's the difference between a Mormon and a non-Mormon?

 

The temperature of their caffeine.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Thinking

[cursor]

I forgot whether it was in a thread on this forum or another forum, but someone said that the Word of Wisdom is an obedience commandment, rather than being put in place because of the contents (such as caffeine) of the things we are commanded not to partake of. In other words, it was given as a test of obedience, and nothing more.

 

The promise of D&C 89 (the Word of Wisdom) is:

 

" ... health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint."

 

It's about health, and about obedience to the laws of quality health.

 

"... to be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days."

 

Note the reference to "temporal salvation."

 

How exactly is "temporal salvation" related to eternal salvation, as suggested by current temple exclusion of a Saint for infraction of D&C 89?

"Temporal salvation" is about real health ... about conscious and decisive execution for one's physical (temporal) health.

 

Excessive consumption of any substance will lead to health (or perhaps behavioral) issues: coffee, tea, tobacco, cheesecake, cheetos, fritos, chipos, fries, McDonalds (or any fast-food) crap, Halloween candy, Easter egg sweets, Thanksgiving pecan pies, sugared/marshmellowed yams, ice cream (UT is the greatest US consumer) ... or whatever.

 

The point is that "temporal salvation" (bodily health) is a matter of personally adopting smart nutritional protocols.

[JLHPROF]

The promise of D&C 89 (the Word of Wisdom) is:

 

" ... health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint."

 

It's about health, and about obedience to the laws of quality health.

 

Are you completely sure about that?  You might want to check the temple.

I may be wrong though...

[cursor]

I'm looking at the text from D&C 89. Is there any more authoritative source?

[JLHPROF]

I'm looking at the text from D&C 89. Is there any more authoritative source?

 

Oh, I actually agree with you.  It is a temporal law.  I was just playing devils advocate a bit.

But the promise you quoted bears striking resemblance to at a very key part of the endowment, a part decidedly NOT temporal.

 

Just wondering if the similarity is mere coincidence...

[cursor]

If my life-long healthiness (firm/clear adherence to the laws of physical/"temporal" health) suggest that I have been supremely diligent in my efforts (I've been active, I've been sports involved, I've done resistance training, I've been aerobically active, I've eaten quality foods (and in proper amounts/balance) ... how should that isolate/separate me from other Saints who hit the Cheesecake factory every Saturday night and consume 1800 calories of nonsense food, and who weigh in at 350 lbs, and who sport a 30-50%+ body fat value?

[cursor]

The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) was issued in 1833. What were the Saints doing at that time that elicited such a revelation? How might their behavior vary from that of our current generation(s)? How is it that any negative value of tea, or coffee, or wine, is not extended to include the contemporary health myths that are "5-Hour Energy", freakin' "Airborne", "Red Bull", etc?

 

The 1833 focused attention on coffee, tea, wine was because THOSE were the current problem issues of the time.

 

In my younger years, when living in Santa Barbara ... that'd be when I was between 13 & 16, perhaps ... we were not allowed to play "cards" (explicitly "face-cards" that is). It was OK to play PIT, it was OK to play Monopoly, it was OK to play chess, it was OK to play UNO, it was OK to play freakin' Chutes & Ladders. Dad said "card playing is of the Devil!" (based on some quote from Brigham Young). It's REALLY about time smartly and intelligently spent. Apparently at that time, the Saints found themselves excessively involved in such activities.

 

Consider, what where the practices of the times?

What were the negative consequences?

What corrective measures were implemented for those folks, at that time?

 

How is it, given modern-day revelation (and considering the same vein of logic) that XBox games are not disallowed, or that vampire videos are not explicitly removed from one's video queue?

 

How much more dangerous is texting while driving ... than coffee consumption?

How much MORE time and attention is given to texting or net-surfing today (compare with face-card playing back in the day)?

How much more negatively significant are song/concert lyrics (and related activities) ... than coffee consumption?

 

Should we have another, specific, Lord delivered, revelation?

 

It's about common sense. DO ... but, smartly.

Edited November 5, 2014 by cursor

[ERayR]

The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) was issued in 1833. What were the Saints doing at that time that elicited such a revelation? How might their behavior vary from that of our current generation(s)? How is it that any negative value of tea, or coffee, or wine, is not extended to include the contemporary health myths that are "5-Hour Energy", freakin' "Airborne", "Red Bull", etc?

 

The 1833 focused attention on coffee, tea, wine was because THOSE were the current problem issues of the time.

 

In my younger years, when living in Santa Barbara ... that'd be when I was between 13 & 16, perhaps ... we were not allowed to play "cards" (explicitly "face-cards" that is). It was OK to play PIT, it was OK to play Monopoly, it was OK to play chess, it was OK to play UNO, it was OK to play freakin' Chutes & Ladders. Dad said "card playing is of the Devil!" (based on some quote from Brigham Young). It's REALLY about time smartly and intelligently spent. Apparently at that time, the Saints found themselves excessively involved in such activities.

 

Consider, what where the practices of the times?

What were the negative consequences?

What corrective measures were implemented for those folks, at that time?

 

How is it, given modern-day revelation (and considering the same vein of logic) that XBox games are not disallowed, or that vampire videos are not explicitly removed from one's video queue?

 

How much more dangerous is texting while driving ... than coffee consumption?

How much MORE time and attention is given to texting or net-surfing today (compare with face-card playing back in the day)?

How much more negatively significant are song/concert lyrics (and related activities) ... than coffee consumption?

 

Should we have another, specific, Lord delivered, revelation?

 

It's about common sense. DO ... but, smartly.

 

Hand held video devices has replaced cards.

[Calm]

I never used to play solitaire unless there was really nothing else to do save maybe chores that I would have to do again later anyway (all my books were read, no TV due to lack of programming or not allowed on a school day). I have at times now been surprised to see the sun coming up when I've allowed myself a half a hour to pass time while waiting for medication to kick in only to find it has been 6 or more hours....sigh.

[Tacenda]

My Dad suffered from chronic back pain that stemmed from an accident and having several back surgeries. He eventually had to quit his job and went on disability. I remember coming home from school and him sitting in his recliner playing solitaire on his old drafting board sitting on his lap. It was so hard to witness. Just seemed so depressing. In my mind he was there all day, but most likely not.

[cursor]

So, in my mind, the idea that playing face-cards is a frivolous waste of time, on its own ... is kinda nuts ... in our time and place.

Brigham Young was responding to an EXCESS that he perceived, in his generation.

 

The word "excess" is the key. How much time do you spend at said activity? How much neglect does that offer your responsible conduct?

 

Again, to disallow Temple access based on coffee (or tea, or consumption, when not considering personal obesity, or type 2 diabetes, or whatever other human defect) doesn't make sense at all to me.

[Stargazer]

There are those who drink "alcohol free" beer, justifying that by saying the by removing the alcohol it is technically no longer an alcoholic beverage but a barley drink, and the WoW promotes barley consumption. Although technically they may be correct, in my opinion they are unnecessary flirting with a proscribed substance, and exhibiting the "appearance of evil" (1 Thess. 5:22).

With the alcohol removed, it is no longer a strong drink, is it? What about alcohol-free malt-drinks, such as those produced in Germany and elsewhere that never had any alcohol in them to begin with? Or 0.5% maximum?

 

D&C 89:17 -

Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Can you logically call a beverage with 0.5% alcohol or less a strong drink? I served my mission in Germany, and a particular brand of malt beer, Karamalz, was enjoyed by many of us US elders. Our German mission president did not have a conniption over this. In fact he never mentioned it. Ever. Although I am sure it came to his attention, because there were inevitably Elders who had never seen such a thing and got bent out of shape enough about it to report the "problem" to the mission president.

How do you feel about putting that teaspoon of vanilla extract in whatever thing you are baking? Vanilla extract is required by the FDA to be at least 70 proof. If you didn't know this before, what will you do about it now? Leave out the vanilla?

The question in my mind is this: how Pharisaic do we really want to be?

As to the appearance of evil, I am sure you have heard of Postum and Pero. Until Kraft discontinued it in 2007 Postum was a very popular Mormon coffee-substitute. To someone who does not know any better, it sure looks like one is drinking coffee when one partakes of Postum. A member of my stake works in the same building I do, and every morning he goes to the coffee stand and buys a hot chocolate. Looks like a nice cup of joe. Should he stop doing that?

 

With hundreds of relatively innocent alternative beverages available to us, why would we purposely choose to drink alcohol free beer?

Because its alcohol-free? Milk is also alcohol-free, and so can egg-nog be alcohol-free.

 

One of my missionary companions was such a person. Can you imagine what the liquor store attendant and customers must have thought when he walked in wearing his name tag, bought an "alcohol free" beer, and proceeded to drink it in public?! I just about flipped, but he just laughed at me and gave me the "it's not against the WoW; it's a barley drink" excuse! Interestingly, he wasn't too concerned about strict obedience to other things either.

And there you go with the only certainty in this post. The Elder should NOT have been doing that. Because done in that way would definitely be "evil in appearance". There is a local bar that I understand has a really good cook, and you can get a very good meal at a reasonable price there. But I would never ever go there. It actually seems to me that your companion was deliberately skirting the edge -- and incidentally putting the Church into disrepute as well.

And I will admit to being very careful who saw me buying an alcohol-free malt drink, too. On the very rare occasion when I indulge.

 

Despite the fact that the Lord didn't specify caffeine, (for probable reasons I have explained in my previous posts above), I personally believe the reason for the "hot drinks" proscription WAS precisely because of the caffeine. What other logical explanation could there be to proscribe these addictive stimulating drinks as part of a revelation that also proscribed other clearly unhealthy and addictive substances?

The Lord couldn't have specified caffeine because the state of biochemical knowledge in those days was such that caffeine had not yet been identified as a chemical substance.

But alcohol was widely known as a chemical substance, and yet the Lord did not say "Don't partake of alcohol." That would have covered it all, with no doubt. But He didn't, which leads me to believe that alcohol in tiny quantities is OK -- i.e. "mild drinks".

 

Rather than provide an exhaustive listing of every known type of alcoholic beverage, the Lord in the WoW sufficed by grouping them together under the single reference "wine or strong drinks." The meaning was clear to everybody and required no further explanation.

Exactly!

 

In like manner, the Lord's grouping of the two most common and abundantly consumed caffeinated drinks of the day (tea and coffee) under the single reference "hot drinks" is entirely consistent with his grouping of the alcoholic beverages; and at the time it didn't require any further explanation either.

Yep, it sure doesn't, and if you insist upon caffeine as the key item here, then decaf must be perfectly OK.

Both Joseph and Hyrum said "hot drinks" means coffee and tea. If you want to believe that this implicates caffeine, that's fine, but what of the other chemicals found in these two drinks? Some of them are actually beneficial; others are not. But maybe the Lord was more concerned about the diterpenes found in coffee, which have recently been implicated in heart disease! Why does it have to be caffeine? And tea has tannin -- how do you know that it is the caffeine in tea rather than the tannin that cause the Lord to put tea on this list? These chemicals are also present in other plants. For example, the active substance in the natural non-nutritive sweetener Stevia, steviol, is also a diterpene. Perhaps you need to avoid Stevia-sweetened products as well as coffee?

 

Just as with alcohol free beer, removing the caffeine from tea or coffee would technically remove the reason for their proscription, but their consumption would still be unnecessary flirting with a proscribed substance and giving the appearance of evil. There are plenty of non-caffeine herbal infusion alternatives to choose from, so why specifically choose decaf coffee or tea?

Because coffee and tea have beneficial chemical compounds that are not found in these alternatives, perhaps? Both of them have anti-oxidants and anti-inflammatory chemicals that make them beneficial.

But you see, if you insist upon caffeine as the proscriptive, then you must allow the decaf alternative. I personally take what Joseph and Hyrum said literally. I don't touch any form of coffee or tea. Including green tea, by the way, which is still the tea plant, just processed differently.

 

Even if none of the cold or hot drink alternatives quite measure up to the taste of beer or coffee/tea, surely the alternatives include plenty of options that are sufficiently pleasing to the taste buds to remove any real need to resort to them? And surely there are plenty of pleasant tasting non-caffeinated and low-sugar sodas available to remove any real need to consume high-sugar caffeinated ones? Wouldn’t that be in keeping with the obvious intent or spirit of the WoW, regardless of whether or not the Lord or the Church officially proscribes them?

When it comes to the spirit or the intent of the WoW, what will you argue? That we must expand the clear language of the WoW to cover much more than the literal word? That is what happens when some LDS take any beverage labelled with the word "tea" to be part of the WoW, such as peppermint tea, just because of the word "tea". And what if a life-saving medicine is only available in an alcoholic solution? We must suffer because of the alcohol? And we will refuse to use cooking sherry in a dish that calls for it, but we will happily add vanilla extract? Yes, I've heard General Conference talks in which the authority has said that we shouldn't use alcohol in cooking, because it might accustom us to the taste of the liquor (presumably driving us to drink), but I just don't see that as a prime concern in my life. As it happens, I've never added an alcoholic beverage to my cooking (but have added vanilla extract), but I'm just not aghast about it.

What frustrates me about some Latter-day Saints is that they see the Word of Wisdom as the gospel. When I was baptized in 1966, the family that brought me into the Church were extremely abstemious about the WoW, but were perfectly content with stopping at the local ice cream parlor after church services. And when they described a relative of theirs who had gone inactive, the seriousness of this was pointed up by the importance they attached to the fact that he was now drinking coffee.

 

The proscriptions in the WoW don't appear to be intended to exclude all possible sources of unhealthy substances, even in the tiniest doses, but rather they appear to tackle the most common and most highly consumed sources because of the negative impact they have when consumed regularly and in higher doses. Hence there was no need to proscribe the use of cocoa, or other substances that were used infrequently and in low doses. But now that cocoa and other unhealthy and addictive substances (including fats and sugars) are more readily available, regular consumption and unhealthy doses would, in my opinion, transgress at least the spirit of the WoW, regardless of whether or not the Lord or the Church specifies it.

Fortunately, our religion does not take the Word of Wisdom quite as seriously as an Orthodox Jew takes Kashrut. I like it that you are free to live by as strict interpretation of the WoW that you want to, while I add vanilla extract to my cake, and USU78 over there is addicted to Dr. Pepper -- and all of us qualify for a temple recommend.

[Stargazer]

The idea behind Coke and Pepsi came up because the idea of Tea and Coffee didn't make much sense.  We don't follow the hot drink rule or else Cocoa, Herbal Tea, Ovaltine, Pero/Caro, Bovril, Horlicks, and all the others would be out too.

So why tea and coffee - well, maybe it's because they have caffeine.

But so does Coke, Pepsi, Doctor Pepper, Mountain Dew etc.

 

See - the problem goes back to Tea and Coffee being banned.  If we ban them for temperature we have to ban other things too.  If we ban them for chemical/drug we have to ban other things too.  Otherwise, we are banning tea and coffee for absolutely no reason.

 

Why do you have to have a reason? 

 

Look, the entire WoW is there so we walk without weariness, and run without getting faint.  That's what the Lord said.  Do you really have to have a detailed reason why the Lord singled out these substances in particular?  I trust that the Lord knows what He is talking about.  I trust that He knows the reason.  And I trust that there might be other substances out there that aren't so good for us, either, but by identifying these ones He has covered the essentials.  The rest of Mormondom can wrap itself around the axle inventing all kinds of reasons, and coming up with new lists of proscribed substances because they are looking beyond the mark, but I will not.

 

It's just like plural marriage, actually.  Why would the Lord require it from time to time?  He's never said.  Well, he did say it was to raise up righteous seed, but we're still left with the Why (or for that matter, How?) unanswered.  The Lord required plural marraige for what reason?  Heck, I don't know!  And I don't really care.  He said Do It.  That's all I need, really.  I will let the rest of Mormondom come up with Tom Fool justifications if they want to, but when it comes down to it, for me the Lord said to do it.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I have to smile at something here..My father would not let us have coke when we were younger..nor cherry coke..or pepsi..but Dr. Pepper and Tab were okay.  Obviously we didn't know about a lot of things years ago....but our refrigerator bottom was full of Dr. Pepper!  What about chocolate??  I love postum..can't find it...but I think that was okay.  But no..I do everything with moderation. I am a gym rat!

 

Kraft Foods discontinued Postum back in 2007, but a different company licensed it from Kraft and put it back into production.  It's available online, and I guess in a few stores here and there.  Try this link: http://postum.com/about-our-company/

[Stargazer]

Probably would be a good idea, that level of caffeine can start to be detrimental. And the crash afterwards isn't particularly pleasant if it hits you that way.

 

I once had to drive from southern Oregon to Olympia, Washington in one evening -- after having driven down there in the morning!  I got to Salem, OR, and was about to conk out.  Having never tried any energy drink (except for a taste of Red Bull, and it tasted like shoe polish), I asked the clerk in a convenience store to recommend one that tasted OK, and he said try Monster.  So I did.  I chugged it down, and got back on the freeway.  Amazingly enough, suddenly I was totally alert and it was like I had just woke up!  This lasted all the way to the outskirts of Olympia, and with no crash afterwards, either.  I climbed into bed at just around midnight, and went right to sleep. 

[Stargazer]

If my life-long healthiness (firm/clear adherence to the laws of physical/"temporal" health) suggest that I have been supremely diligent in my efforts (I've been active, I've been sports involved, I've done resistance training, I've been aerobically active, I've eaten quality foods (and in proper amounts/balance) ... how should that isolate/separate me from other Saints who hit the Cheesecake factory every Saturday night and consume 1800 calories of nonsense food, and who weigh in at 350 lbs, and who sport a 30-50%+ body fat value?

 

Congratulations, you are healthier than those folks.  However, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Word of Wisdom.  Obeying the complete Word of Wisdom (every jot and tittle of Section 89, plus whatever else you want to add as "in the spirit of"), as opposed to merely refraining from coffee, tea, tobacco and alchoholic spirits, does NOT make you more holy than those who regularly exceed caloric intake recommandations.  Keeping the Word of Wisdom for temple worthiness is an essential, yet small, part of the journey that Latter-day Saints should be taking on the way to emulating their Lord and Savior, and adding to His glory.

 

In the end our bodies will wither away and die.  If all we have done to prepare for eternity is keeping ourselves healthy, in the end we will be defeated.

[Calm]

I once had to drive from southern Oregon to Olympia, Washington in one evening -- after having driven down there in the morning!  I got to Salem, OR, and was about to conk out.  Having never tried any energy drink (except for a taste of Red Bull, and it tasted like shoe polish), I asked the clerk in a convenience store to recommend one that tasted OK, and he said try Monster.  So I did.  I chugged it down, and got back on the freeway.  Amazingly enough, suddenly I was totally alert and it was like I had just woke up!  This lasted all the way to the outskirts of Olympia, and with no crash afterwards, either.  I climbed into bed at just around midnight, and went right to sleep.

Not everyone is prone to such, thank goodness. I overproduce insulin (apparently connected to sleep deprivation so it varies) and caffeine contributes so high energy drinks take me way up and then I get sick when blood sugar drops....

[Stargazer]

Not everyone is prone to such, thank goodness. I overproduce insulin (apparently connected to sleep deprivation so it varies) and caffeine contributes so high energy drinks take me way up and then I get sick when blood sugar drops....

 

That would be yucky!

 

As for me, I have been drinking Monster Assaults daily for quite some time, along with Pepsi (love 'em both), but as of yesterday I had what may be my last Monster and last Pepsi for some time.  I am quitting sugary drinks, and the sugar-free versions do not appeal to me at all.  We will see what happens!

[cursor]

Congratulations, you are healthier than those folks.  However, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Word of Wisdom.  Obeying the complete Word of Wisdom (every jot and tittle of Section 89, plus whatever else you want to add as "in the spirit of"), as opposed to merely refraining from coffee, tea, tobacco and alchoholic spirits, does NOT make you more holy than those who regularly exceed caloric intake recommandations.  Keeping the Word of Wisdom for temple worthiness is an essential, yet small, part of the journey that Latter-day Saints should be taking on the way to emulating their Lord and Savior, and adding to His glory.

 

In the end our bodies will wither away and die.  If all we have done to prepare for eternity is keeping ourselves healthy, in the end we will be defeated.

 

Thanks for your insights, Stargazer.

 

My post was not about the entire gospel of Jesus Christ. It was explicitly about the very narrow slice that is the Word of Wisdom, which is a promise for quality temporal/bodily health. Please don't lose focus.

 

According to the gospel, a very major reason for our temporal existence is to obtain a physical body (right?). AND, while here, it is our responsibility to respect, protect and develop that body as best we can. Amulek promised:

 

The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame

Alma 11:43 

 

I propose that the Christ's parable of talents applies to all levels of individual human (selective — choose, or don't ... commit or don't) development. That includes personal physical development, and the mental/spiritual costs/investments to get there.

 

Spiritual investment

Emotional connection

Scholastic development

Physical UMPH 

 

If one flakes out in any of the above, the he/she will be held accountable. That hardly means that the result will be nasty ... it just means that we will each put where we belong.

 

I'm personally comfortable with where I am now. Still making constant adjustments though.

[shinedown]

If my life-long healthiness (firm/clear adherence to the laws of physical/"temporal" health) suggest that I have been supremely diligent in my efforts (I've been active, I've been sports involved, I've done resistance training, I've been aerobically active, I've eaten quality foods (and in proper amounts/balance) ... how should that isolate/separate me from other Saints who hit the Cheesecake factory every Saturday night and consume 1800 calories of nonsense food, and who weigh in at 350 lbs, and who sport a 30-50%+ body fat value?

 

I'm just curious, why are you so concerned with what other Saints are doing?  If you want to go above and beyond the WoW, then that's great.  That said, when the day of judgement comes, we are each responsible for our own actions.

[Stargazer]

Thanks for your insights, Stargazer.

 

My post was not about the entire gospel of Jesus Christ. It was explicitly about the very narrow slice that is the Word of Wisdom, which is a promise for quality temporal/bodily health. Please don't lose focus.

 

According to the gospel, a very major reason for our temporal existence is to obtain a physical body (right?). AND, while here, it is our responsibility to respect, protect and develop that body as best we can. Amulek promised:

 

The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame

Alma 11:43 

 

I propose that the Christ's parable of talents applies to all levels of individual human (selective — choose, or don't ... commit or don't) development. That includes personal physical development, and the mental/spiritual costs/investments to get there.

 

Spiritual investment

Emotional connection

Scholastic development

Physical UMPH 

 

If one flakes out in any of the above, the he/she will be held accountable. That hardly means that the result will be nasty ... it just means that we will each put where we belong.

 

I'm personally comfortable with where I am now. Still making constant adjustments though.

 

I'm happy for you, genuinely, that you are comfortable with where you are now at this time.  I will say that I am not so comfortable.  I have in fact been largely ignoring my physical frame for many years.  Sure I keep the Word of Wisdom, as without it I am pretty certain that I would be in a horrible place.  My father and father's father both died before age 50 of massive heart attacks, with smoking being significant factors.  I inherited a better heart from my mother, so even as overweight as I am, it continues to pump blithely along.  I have the blood pressure of someone much younger, or so my doctor told me.  That is thanks to the Word of Wisdom I have reached 63 years of age.

 

If you are balanced in all those areas, I salute you.  Just this week I started a program of getting a better handle on the physical.  I got a ways to go.

[Stargazer]

I'm just curious, why are you so concerned with what other Saints are doing?  If you want to go above and beyond the WoW, then that's great.  That said, when the day of judgement comes, we are each responsible for our own actions.

 

That's kind of what he said, yes.  But I didn't get the impression that he was judging others for his own interpretation of the WoW, just that the topic of the thread is the WoW, so he chimed in with his 2 cents.  And that he thought that too many Saints weren't taking the WoW seriously enough, from an objective measure.

 

Unfortunately, there are Saints who make themselves judges over others in the WoW department.  These are they whom I get worked up over.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Stargazer

[shinedown]

That's kind of what he said, yes.  But I didn't get the impression that he was judging others for his own interpretation of the WoW, just that the topic of the thread is the WoW, so he chimed in with his 2 cents.  And that he thought that too many Saints weren't taking the WoW seriously enough, from an objective measure.

 

Unfortunately, there are Saints who make themselves judges over others in the WoW department.  These are they whom I get worked up over.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that he was judging others, but more of wondering why it mattered if it "should isolate/seperate" him from the rest.  I'm still new to the faith, so I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

[cursor]

Truth is truth.

Temporal fitness is what it is.

If you drop the ball in terms of physical fitness, then you lose some "talents."

If you drop the ball with respect to spirituality, then you lose a couple points.

 

The list of personal responsibilities goes on and on.

 

My personal concern is that the rules are so [unnecessarily] staunch that some of the mighty (including me) are excluded from substantive participation in eternal things that matter.

Coffee NO ... weekly cheesecake OK. Temple recommend ... NO!