Word Of Wisdom Poll

Stargazer · December 26, 2014

Are Monster Rehab energy drinks against the word of wisdom and would withhold someone from a temple recommend?

Monster Rehabs contain coffee, I believe, so yes you can't drink them and T/R. Try Monster Assault -- much tastier, IMHO.

Stargazer · December 26, 2014

"Hot drinks" does not refer to coffee and tea in my humble opinion. As a convert, I can tell you, and anyone who has ever had a shot of vodka can tell you, hard alcohol burns like the fiery depths of hell going down. Seems to me to be a re-iteration of avoiding "strong" drinks. That being said, I still don't drink coffee/tea because of my husband. I miss it all the time.

May I subject your humble opinion to a little fact? Yes, it does refer to coffee and tea, and to the point, please refer to a post in this same thread here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64484-word-of-wisdom-poll/page-4#entry1209436578

As for the less meat more grain issue, my household has recently taken on a low carb, high protein diet, essentially eliminating grains, and meat is the staple of most meals. And I have watched first hand my health and my husband's health improve like you wouldn't believe. I've watched my mother naturally keep her high blood pressure at bay with a couple of glasses of wine a week, without becoming an alcoholic I might add. In the past I have used coffee for its natural pain relieving properties, which I figure to be a better option than narcotics.

I intended to start doing such a diet, having experimented with it for short periods to see what it did. And found immediate results like you describe. Not everyone benefits from it in the same way, and fewer still even need it.

What was it about the wine that benefited your mother? The alcohol? Other chemicals in the wine? If it is other chemicals in the wine, then red grape juice (e.g. Welch's) would work as well.

As to pain relief, consider that aspirin derives from white willow bark, with the active ingredient being salicylate. This is also obtainable in health food stores, so you needn't rely upon coffee.

Does any of this discredit the WoW? I don't think so. It is my personal opinion and revelation that the spirit of the law is, all things in moderation. Except for things like tobacco and other harmful drugs, probably should avoid those

I agree that it doesn't discredit the WoW.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Stargazer

blooit · December 26, 2014

When I made a legitimate effort to not only abstain from forbidden things in the WOW - but to follow the "dos" as well - I was shocked at how good I felt physically. I went heavy on the grains, fruits and vegetables. I went very light on meats. I went light on sugars and crap-foods too. Man - I felt like a million bucks.

I needs to get back to that.

Stargazer · December 26, 2014

was Jesus not clear enough for you?
"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.""

Who said anything about defilement? The Word of Wisdom isn't about defilement, it's about wisdom relating to health matters. If the LDS Church has decided to require a certain amount of adherance or committment to it before a member is asked to hold certain leadership positions, how is this any of your business? In short, the LDS church asks that those who exercise leadership in the church abstain from partaking of certain things.

if Jesus was unclear, will you believe His apostle?

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,

So, what does this mean in connection with what Paul said about eating blood and meat which has been offered to idols?

or in respect of an holyday

So, do you celebrate Christmas, or are you one of those Scrooges who insist that Christmas is not part of Christian worship?

, or of the new moon

Do you not celebrate Easter? A moveable feast, the First Council of Nicaea (325) established the date of Easter as the first Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon, the full moon that occurs on or soonest after 21 March. So the council was apostate, then? I agree!

, or of the sabbath days:

So when John the Apostle mentioned that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (the Christian substitute for the Sabbath) he should have been treating it like any other day of the week, and shouldn't have made anything special out of it? What day of the week do you attend services, then?

i am curious to know how that seeing what the scriptures say, you are able to ignore them and subject yourself to men whose commands are contrary to those of the risen Lord?

No, you're not in the slightest bit interested in what the scriptures say. You are only interested in judging people by your own interpretation of what the scriptures say.

Everything that Paul wrote in the verses in Collosians which you have quoted here pertained to those who would judge Christians by their non-observance of the Law of Moses, a law which had been fulfilled. For it is the case that Christians may eat pork and shellfish, they are not required to observe the Passover, nor the Feast of the Tabernacles, and the Sabbath had been changed from the Seventh to the First day of the week.

Paul had to be concerned about this because the formerly-Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, who were probably still the majority of those who had accepted Christ, did still observe the Law of Moses. There was concern that the law-observant Christians would cause contentions by insisting that Gentiles become Jewish converts before they were accepted as Christians.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Stargazer

PurpleMinion · January 5, 2015

Stargazer - Sheesh, shall I get you an even higher horse?

Actually the way that wine is made, being fermented with the grape skins for long periods of time, makes it much more heart healthy than say, grape juice. Additionally, yes, alcohol itself in moderation does in fact lower blood pressure. Nonetheless, I personally don't drink the stuff, tastes like battery acid.

As for your pain relief "suggestion," forgive me, but LOL!!! I've been in pain constantly for almost 15 years and have tried everything you can buy over the counter, various other prescription medications, I've had upwards of 20 cortisone injections, physical therapy, ultrasonic therapy, electrode therapy, chiropractic therapy, acupuncture, heck even psycho therapy...pretty much everything except surgery. But sure, thanks for the tip. Haha. And for the record, the best relief I ever got was from a single daily cup of coffee. Like I said though, I don't rely on it. I've been trying to live the "faithful" life or whatever and instead do things like yoga (which certainly makes my body stronger, but does not relieve my pain).

I agree not every diet works for every human. Which is exactly why the WoW irks me. People have allergies and intolerances and hormone imbalances and different taste buds, etc, etc. There are a lot of things that just weren't known then about our inner workings and the science of the foods on the do/do not list in the WoW. Taking a spirit of the law approach to this particular item of Church business helps me keep those disagreeable feelings at bay and maintain my own personal harmony with the Lord. I am sorry your world is so black and white though. Good luck!

Sleeper Cell · January 5, 2015

What was culturally happening when these dictates were issued that might stimulate such a proclamation?

My dad told us that face-cards were evil, yet playing Pit was OK. Also, UNO was OK. Playing Monopoly was awesome. Doing crossword puzzles singularly, or as a group, was awesome.
(Truly) healthful methods, truthfully, extent substantially beyond the very limited expression in the "Word of Wisdom." Tea has it's place. Coffee does no harm, except in severe excess [does that mean that we should never consume? ... based on what real scientific analysis]?
The truth is that there is nothing wrong with coffee.
The truth is that there is nothing wrong with tea.
The truth is that obsessive consumption of carbonated drinks is harmful.
The truth is that obsessive consumption of Red Bull (or any other nonsensical brand of caffeine drink) is harmful.
The truth is that obsessive consumption of menu items from the Cheese Cake factory is harmful (and not in keeping with the Word of Wisdom
The truth is that a three egg breakfast, combined with a 300 calorie breakfast muffin, with potatoes, combined with [gee] fruit?, combined with ... whatever ... is not in the interest of one's personal health ... and not in keeping with the Word of Wisdom.
[ What was the current status of cultural events when this mandate was issued? ]

Those who don't engage in such activities have access to a Temple recommend ... while those who drink coffee [ir]regularly cannot enjoy such access.

Oops ...I drink coffee.

As far as the WoW goes ...

I can do more squats [with more weight], or do more curls [with more weight], or do more triceps extension exercises [with more weight] than I expect most/any of you can do [even given you're younger age and fitness status (and I expect that I'll live longer, as the result). And I'll be 62 in about a week. I don't eat crap, yet I do drink coffee, with light cream ... no sugar ... yet that alone precludes me from a temple recommend. Yet, I see overweight and obese bishops, and shape stake presidents, and plenty of ward members who don't have a clue about physical fitness awareness. Isn't that after-all what the Word of Wisdom is all about?

I'm currently 72" tall, 182 lbs, 9% body fat, at nearly 62 years old ... yet find myself out of the loop in Mormon circles.

To make dietary consumables a matter of acceptance to the CLUB is nuts. Frankly. And, when those WofW questions regarding personal health come from a 350-lbs Bishop ... then you're turned down ... that's pretty distasteful to me.

How freakin' shortsighted. I very seriously God supports the same nearsightedness.

“How freakin shortsighted?” As compared to an otherwise faithful and believing Latter Day Saint choosing to drink coffee, rather than choosing to go to the temple? And then attempting to justify it with an “holier than thou” attitude toward many of his fellow temple going Saints. To say nothing of the judgmental reference to [his?] 350 lb bishop (who may well be obese mostly due to medical or psychological problems), simply because he is in better physical shape.

Let’s assume that the commandment against coffee drinking had absolutely no health basis, and even that it is merely an arbitrary TR requirement. Wouldn’t the situation be similar to that of Naanan, the Syrian who was told that the Lord would cure him of leprosy if he would bathe in a prescribed manner in a certain river? IIRC, the gist of the story was that he took exception to the way the prophet choose to perform the healing; in particular, to the arbitrary constraints he imposed. (why can’t I use my hometown rivers). Fortunately, he had wise servants who told him

“If the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? How much rather then, when he saith to thee, wash and be clean?

Unfortunately, you are stuck with advice from an obnoxious internet jerk, who is probably more judgmental and “holier than thou” in his personal life than he accuses you of being. You should still heed his advice, quit the coffee, return to the temple, and argue about it later.

Ironically, the only WoW related TR question I would be in favor of modifying is the only one to which nobody on this thread seems to have objected. -- No tobacco. I am in favor of giving some leeway for those who have been struggling for years to overcome their smoking habit. After all, for most people, tobacco is an addictive substance; generally speaking, coffee is not. On the rare occasions that the subject comes up in my priesthood group, the argument is usually whether smoking ranks as a 1 or a 2 on the “sin scale” (10 being the worst), with some arguing that for long time smokers who are struggling to quit, it is no longer a sin at all, but a habit. (To what extent can you say that an otherwise “temple worthy” person who is struggling to quit smoking, but is unsuccessful because he is addicted, is really choosing to smoke?)

Edited January 5, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

ERayR · January 6, 2015

“How freakin shortsighted?” As compared to an otherwise faithful and believing Latter Day Saint choosing to drink coffee, rather than choosing to go to the temple? And then attempting to justify it with an “holier than thou” attitude toward many of his fellow temple going Saints. To say nothing of the judgmental reference to [his?] 350 lb bishop (who may well be obese mostly due to medical or psychological problems), simply because he is in better physical shape.

Let’s assume that the commandment against coffee drinking had absolutely no health basis, and even that it is merely an arbitrary TR requirement. Wouldn’t the situation be similar to that of Naanan, the Syrian who was told that the Lord would cure him of leprosy if he would bathe in a prescribed manner in a certain river? IIRC, the gist of the story was that he took exception to the way the prophet choose to perform the healing; in particular, to the arbitrary constraints he imposed. (why can’t I use my hometown rivers). Fortunately, he had wise servants who told him

Unfortunately, you are stuck with advice from an obnoxious internet jerk, who is probably more judgmental and “holier than thou” in his personal life than he accuses you of being. You should still heed his advice, quit the coffee, return to the temple, and argue about it later.

Ironically, the only WoW related TR question I would be in favor of modifying is the only one to which nobody on this thread seems to have objected. -- No tobacco. I am in favor of giving some leeway for those who have been struggling for years to overcome their smoking habit. After all, for most people, tobacco is an addictive substance; generally speaking, coffee is not. On the rare occasions that the subject comes up in my priesthood group, the argument is usually whether smoking ranks as a 1 or a 2 on the “sin scale” (10 being the worst), with some arguing that for long time smokers who are struggling to quit, it is no longer a sin at all, but a habit. (To what extent can you say that an otherwise “temple worthy” person who is struggling to quit smoking, but is unsuccessful because he is addicted, is really choosing to smoke?)

Can't find much to object to in your post except the idea that because it is a habit it is not a sin. Sinful habits are sin.

cursor · January 6, 2015

“How freakin shortsighted?” As compared to an otherwise faithful and believing Latter Day Saint choosing to drink coffee, rather than choosing to go to the temple? And then attempting to justify it with an “holier than thou” attitude toward many of his fellow temple going Saints. To say nothing of the judgmental reference to [his?] 350 lb bishop (who may well be obese mostly due to medical or psychological problems), simply because he is in better physical shape.

Let’s assume that the commandment against coffee drinking had absolutely no health basis, and even that it is merely an arbitrary TR requirement. Wouldn’t the situation be similar to that of Naanan, the Syrian who was told that the Lord would cure him of leprosy if he would bathe in a prescribed manner in a certain river? IIRC, the gist of the story was that he took exception to the way the prophet choose to perform the healing; in particular, to the arbitrary constraints he imposed. (why can’t I use my hometown rivers). Fortunately, he had wise servants who told him

Unfortunately, you are stuck with advice from an obnoxious internet jerk, who is probably more judgmental and “holier than thou” in his personal life than he accuses you of being. You should still heed his advice, quit the coffee, return to the temple, and argue about it later.

Ironically, the only WoW related TR question I would be in favor of modifying is the only one to which nobody on this thread seems to have objected. -- No tobacco. I am in favor of giving some leeway for those who have been struggling for years to overcome their smoking habit. After all, for most people, tobacco is an addictive substance; generally speaking, coffee is not. On the rare occasions that the subject comes up in my priesthood group, the argument is usually whether smoking ranks as a 1 or a 2 on the “sin scale” (10 being the worst), with some arguing that for long time smokers who are struggling to quit, it is no longer a sin at all, but a habit. (To what extent can you say that an otherwise “temple worthy” person who is struggling to quit smoking, but is unsuccessful because he is addicted, is really choosing to smoke?)

The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) is ALL about personal health. The heading reads, "Abstinence from wine, strong drink, tobacco and hot drinks." My personal salvation is all about how I responsibly address my personal surroundings ... really, it's a test. You know of course the Talents parable. Wait ... are you that 400-lbs Bishop that I interviewed with last week ...?

As a matter of fact, the number of overweight folk in this world is NOT related to those with "medical or psychological problems." But rather ... here it comes ... related to the excess nonsense that people (not just LDS) suck into their bodies. Bad food choices ... and in poor amounts.

By the way (or should I actually type out BTW) what the hell does "TR" mean in your post, "Sleeper Cell"?

Calm · January 6, 2015

Most likely temple recommend

cursor · January 7, 2015

THX Cal.

strappinglad · January 7, 2015

One of the ways I avoid breaking the WoW is to not attend ward parties.

As far as answering the TR questions, there is wiggle room in almost all of them. Do you sustain the Brethren ...? Yes (as far as they are translated correctly). Do you pay a full tithe? Yes ( but I pay on net ) . Do you support any apostate groups ? No,( but I do donate to the Salvation army at Christmas).Then there is that last one designed to keep out almost everyone. So cursor, you can answer yes to the WoW question if you mentally add( better than most).

Sleeper Cell · January 7, 2015

Edited January 7, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

Sleeper Cell · January 7, 2015

The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) is ALL about personal health. The heading reads, "Abstinence from wine, strong drink, tobacco and hot drinks." My personal salvation is all about how I responsibly address my personal surroundings ... really, it's a test. You know of course the Talents parable. Wait ... are you that 400-lbs Bishop that I interviewed with last week ...?

As a matter of fact, the number of overweight folk in this world is NOT related to those with "medical or psychological problems." But rather ... here it comes ... related to the excess nonsense that people (not just LDS) suck into their bodies. Bad food choices ... and in poor amounts.

By the way (or should I actually type out BTW) what the hell does "TR" mean in your post, "Sleeper Cell"?

What did you expect your bishop to do? Overrule church policy and sign your temple recommend anyway? Shouldn’t your anger be directed toward President Monson, who has the authority to change the “no coffee” requirement?

You speak of your “personal salvation” as “all about how you address … [your] personal surroundings/” You even speak of this as “a test.” How well have you addressed that portion of your personal surroundings which you identify as your “400 lb bishop?” With Christian love?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

Sleeper Cell · January 7, 2015

As a matter of fact, the number of overweight folk in this world is NOT related to those with "medical or psychological problems." But rather ... here it comes ... related to the excess nonsense that people (not just LDS) suck into their bodies. Bad food choices ... and in poor amounts.

By the way (or should I actually type out BTW) what the hell does "TR" mean in your post, "Sleeper Cell"?

CFR (That means “call for references”)

And while you are at it, CFR that I said that “the number of overweight folk in this world is related to those with medical or psychological problems.” I had the impression that all I said was that these factors may well be the primary cause for the obesity of a particular individual, namely your “400 lb bishop” (who seems to have gained 50 lbs since you last posted in this thread). Or is it your position that “medical or psychological problems” cannot lead to obesity?

cursor · January 7, 2015

It's good to leave your anger behind.

cursor · January 7, 2015

CFR (That means “call for references”)

And while you are at it, CFR that I said that “the number of overweight folk in this world is related to those with medical or psychological problems.” I had the impression that all I said was that these factors may well be the primary cause for the obesity of a particular individual, namely your “400 lb bishop” (who seems to have gained 50 lbs since you last posted in this thread). Or is it your position that “medical or psychological problems” cannot lead to obesity?

Any responsible review of the increase in obesity over the last twenty years points to cultural shifts in dietary intake. Prior to that twenty or thirty year mark, people were dramatically better off. Look it up. The adoption of high fructose corn syrup in food production is a huge contributor.

The Word of Wisdom was issued in 1833. How might said revelation be responsibly enhanced by 181 years of medical and dietary knowledge?

And, whether my bishop weighs 350 or 400 pounds ... I really don't know. His body fat must be in excess of 40%, based on my experience. THAT is NOT living the Word of Wisdom. Yet I, at 9% bodyfat, 180-lbs, and 6'-0" am denied full privileges. HE is the one that decides.

What are the lessons?

What is the goal?

What are the responsible connections that we should personally enjoy with God?

The whole point of the word of wisdom is ...

And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

And I, the Lord, give unto then a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen

Edited January 7, 2015 by cursor

thesometimesaint · January 7, 2015

Any responsible review of the increase in obesity over the last twenty years points to cultural shifts in dietary intake. Prior to that twenty or thirty year mark, people were dramatically better off. Look it up. The adoption of high fructose corn syrup in food production is a huge contributor.

The Word of Wisdom was issued in 1833. How might said revelation be responsibly enhanced by 181 years of medical and dietary knowledge?

Of course what, and how much, we eat has a huge bearing on how healthy we are. However I think the bigger problem is that we have adopted a much more sedimentary lifestyle particularly when compared with the 1830's.

cursor · January 7, 2015

Yes. I agree. And how might that smart evaluation be coded into the Word of Wisdom. Dietary intake, habits, etc. ... are a serious consideration for the W of W.

ERayR · January 7, 2015

Any responsible review of the increase in obesity over the last twenty years points to cultural shifts in dietary intake. Prior to that twenty or thirty year mark, people were dramatically better off. Look it up. The adoption of high fructose corn syrup in food production is a huge contributor.

The Word of Wisdom was issued in 1833. How might said revelation be responsibly enhanced by 181 years of medical and dietary knowledge?

And, whether my bishop weighs 350 or 400 pounds ... I really don't know. His body fat must be in excess of 40%, based on my experience. THAT is NOT living the Word of Wisdom. Yet I, at 9% bodyfat, 180-lbs, and 6'-0" am denied full privileges. HE is the one that decides.

What are the lessons?
What is the goal?
What are the responsible connections that we should personally enjoy with God?
The whole point of the word of wisdom is ...

And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
And I, the Lord, give unto then a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen

You are harshly judgmental of those who are overweight without having any knowledge of why. I am admittedly overweight caused by a lack of activity caused by pain in my lower spine when I stand erect more than 5 minutes caused by degenerative disk and arthritis in my lower spine.

cursor · January 7, 2015

You are harshly judgmental of those who are overweight without having any knowledge of why. I am admittedly overweight caused by a lack of activity caused by pain in my lower spine when I stand erect more than 5 minutes caused by degenerative disk and arthritis in my lower spine.

Then address it. Fix it. Yeah, it's tough. But just frickin' do it!! It's within your power. I'm certain that I can help. PM me.

You say that I'm "harshly judgmental of those who are overweight."

There are very serious studies that clearly identify the cause of current obesity. It can be reversed. It requires focus, and deserves serious attention.

Edited January 7, 2015 by cursor

ERayR · January 7, 2015

Then address it. Fix it. Yeah, it's tough. But just frickin' do it!! It's within your power. I'm certain that I can help. PM me.

You say that I'm "harshly judgmental of those who are overweight."

There are very serious studies that clearly identify the cause of current obesity. It can be reversed. It requires focus, and deserves serious attention.

You think I am not working on it? Wrong again. I love the sanctimony of those who are blessed with good health. I used to car pool with a guy that didn't have an extra ounce on him. He carried his lunch to work in a brief case I went to work with but a single sandwich. At the time I was twenty pounds over weight and had trouble losing it and he didn't gain a pound. At the time I was much younger and did yard work and played on two softball teams and in the winter played on a basketball team.

Sleeper Cell · January 7, 2015

Any responsible review of the increase in obesity over the last twenty years points to cultural shifts in dietary intake. Prior to that twenty or thirty year mark, people were dramatically better off. Look it up. The adoption of high fructose corn syrup in food production is a huge contributor.

The Word of Wisdom was issued in 1833. How might said revelation be responsibly enhanced by 181 years of medical and dietary knowledge?

Somehow, I don‘t think that “Look it up” is a proper response to a CFR.

For that matter, the above is non-responsive to the point under dispute.

As a matter of fact, the number of overweight folk in this world is NOT related to those with "medical or psychological problems."

If you wish to answer the CFR, kindly provide a reference to the effect that obesity is never caused by medical or psychological problems (or modify your statement accordingly).

cursor · January 8, 2015

If you wish to answer the CFR, kindly provide a reference to the effect that obesity is never caused by medical or psychological problems (or modify your statement accordingly).

Yo ... dude ... I never ever suggested that

"obesity is never caused by medical or physcological problems."

Seriously, if you think that the current issue of human obesity is related to (or can be excused by) anything but bad dietary choice ... then please be free to enlighten me.

Edited January 8, 2015 by cursor

Calm · January 8, 2015

Sleep deprivation is intimately tied to obesity for many people and not just because obesity can cause sleep apnea and lower quality of sleep, but rather low quality of sleep can cause obesity. I think the change in sleep habits with people generally getting less than they would if they just allowed their bodies to dictate it as well as avoiding foods that interfere with sleep quality such as coffee and tea (and maybe tobacco iirc) could make a significant difference. It would allow the body to heal properly, provide more energy so that people would feel like moving more, encourage a more balanced biorhythm that can help in digestion (the body metabolisizes stuff diffferently at different times of the day (ask a diabetic who is on a pump if they have the same basal rate for the whole day…and if they say yes, ask them how their sugars are).

And it becomes a vicious cycle, someone feels tired they eat to raise blood sugars, but then you get too much and you usually don't compenstate with the physical movment those calories provide….that and the drop from caffiene drunk to keep one more awake tends to drive a lot of peopl towards the cupboards as well.

Percentage of accidents on the road is highest at 3 AM because that is when the body is sleepiest. You work at that time of day, your body doesn't know want to do and people don't really adjust because there are so many other cues that are telling them they need to be awake in the light and asleep in the dark.

Unfortunately there are a goodly percenatage of people out there with sleep disorders that are genetic and not a lifestyle choice. And the drugs for those people who literally will not sleep in the severe cases are well know to turn people into compulsive eating as well as slow growth (if someone gains more than 5 lbs in a week, that is not just overeating…your body shouldn't be able to do that supposedly unless something is off, like a med suppressing an satiation switch) and the drugs have the added benefit of augmenting the disorder. Do you choose no sleep now or some sleep now knowing in time the drug is going to boomerang on you but there is a possibility that a new drug that won't have thos bad effects might turn up.

Edited January 8, 2015 by calmoriah

cursor · January 9, 2015

...

Edited January 9, 2015 by cursor

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