Do We Worship Joseph Smith?

[Jeanne]

Don't know about kicked off, but you are completely wrong.

 

1. Martyrs can absolutley have a gun or resist.  There is no requirement for a martyr to be a pacifist.  A martyr is anyone who is killed for a cause, just as Joseph was killed for his religion.

 

2. Yes, Joseph had more than one wife, just like EVERY prophet chosen of God where we have record of their family life.  Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, (and as anyone with any common sense will acknowledge, Christ).

Then why didn't I know this, a devout young woman and young mother..did not know anything about the wives and as for primary stories of Carthrage, never knew there was a gun.  We can say that I should have seen this in the ensign..but hey, this is what I was taught before I could read!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Then why didn't I know this, a devout young woman and young mother..did not know anything about the wives and as for primary stories of Carthrage, never knew there was a gun.  We can say that I should have seen this in the ensign..but hey, this is what I was taught before I could read!

Sigh, not the gun. Do you watch conference? Ever? They talked about it fairly recently. They also talked about the stone in the hat.

 

I am having a hard time with the devout business. It paints a nice picture but the reality is that I am not all the devout esp right now and I have known about this stuff for years now. I am in my mid 30-s. I learned about the gun and the stone in the hat when I was in High school in seminary.

 

The claim that the church hides these 2 events is false.

 

I mean, what do you want from us? You want us to leave over this too? You want us to go along with a proven false narrative?

 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Scott Lloyd]

Then why didn't I know this, a devout young woman and young mother..did not know anything about the wives and as for primary stories of Carthrage, never knew there was a gun.  We can say that I should have seen this in the ensign..but hey, this is what I was taught before I could read!

The very gun Joseph Smith had at Carthage has been on display for the past 25 years at the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City, the Church's flagship museum, in a (semi-)permanent Church history exhbit.

 

A photo of the gun, together with another gun that one of Joseph's companions at Carthage had, has been featured for many years on one of the pages of Church History in the Fulness of Times, the Church Educational System Institute of Religion student manual for Church history courses.

 

I will refrain from blaming you for having missed these (and perhaps other) sources of information if you will refrain from accusing the Church of having hidden the information from you.

 

And as I frequently add in conversations such as this: What does it matter anyway? Are you going to begrudge Joseph Smith the use of a woefully inadequate pistol in his effort to fend off a murderous mob and preserve the lives of his brother and two supportive friends? Where's your sense of justice?

Edited October 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

This is a problematic way to look at it as well. I've always read church history. I've been very active in reading and studying various aspects...BUT...I was always studying from church approved sources and Deseret Book printed publications. I was always afraid to look at anything from any other source. So when the church began releasing additional information in the Joseph Smith Papers etc and Deseret Book started printing more controversial historical issues then it opened the floodgates for many. Assuming that people were lazy because they didn't know JS practiced polyandry or married 14 year old girls is silly. People trusted the church narrative. When information became more accessible then they studied voraciously

Funny thing is, some of those books that you may have read at Deseret Bookstores that showed some warts or controversial things were pulled off the shelves. And for awhile were online, for instance...Mormon Enigma, In Sacred Lonliness and for a short time Mormonism Unveiled. And last I checked, Brian Hale's book "Joseph Smith's Polygamy" (?) is online only. But for how long?

[Pahoran]

They absolutely did tell us to celebrate JS birthday instead of Christmas.

I was an active member of the Church in 2005. Forgive me, but I very politely find it incredible -- as in, not credible that any "they" told you not to celebrate Christmas.

It never happened.

Sorry.

We sang Praise to the man. I remember it well because it really ticked me off. And I don't care if it was the 200th anniversary (you're probably right about that), there is never any occassion where we should hold up JS before Christ. THESE are the types of actions that reasonably cause people to think the church worships JS.

No.

They are the kinds of actions that malicious people exploit as a pretext to falsely claim that we worship Joseph Smith.

Regards,

Pahoran

[JLHPROF]

Funny thing is, some of those books that you may have read at Deseret Bookstores that showed some warts or controversial things were pulled off the shelves. And for awhile were online, for instance...Mormon Enigma, In Sacred Lonliness and for a short time Mormonism Unveiled. And last I checked, Brian Hale's book "Joseph Smith's Polygamy" (?) is online only. But for how long?

 

Brian Hale's book is not online only and is available at any Mormon bookstore that the Church doesn't have any control of - Benchmark books, Confetti books, Ken Sanders Books, Sam Wellers,  etc.  You just won't find it at Deseret Book or Seagull Book.

 

The same applies to the other books you mention (Mormon Enigma, In Sacred Lonliness) - as long as they're in print or there are used available they're pretty available in stores.  Just not from the Church's stores.

[The Nehor]

It is true that the Sacrament focuses the attention on Christ and that is the main reason we meet. But aside from the Sacrament there are many sacrament meetings where Jesus Christ is only mentioned as the talk is closed.  

 

And there are meetings where Joseph Smith is never mentioned at all.

[cinepro]

I see no appreciable difference between praising George Washington -- in song, poetry or prose -- for the great things he accomplished and similarly praising Joseph Smith for the great things he accomplished.

 

Do you know of any other religion, anywhere, that has a hymn in their hymnbook that is focused on "praising" one of their leaders and listing all the great things he has done? 

 

I don't know of any, but I don't know much about the songs other churches and religions sing.

[Raingirl]

Martyrs do not have guns.  Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives.  I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

 

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

Is there some sort of law that I am unaware of that prevents martyrs from possessing a gun? How is this law enforced?

Have you ever actually studied church history at all? And from credible sources? Or are you content to passively accept whatever tidbits some ignorant person with an axe to grind against the church tosses your way?

[The Nehor]

Do you know of any other religion, anywhere, that has a hymn in their hymnbook that is focused on "praising" one of their leaders and listing all the great things he has done? 

 

I don't know of any, but I don't know much about the songs other churches and religions sing.

 

You get some Mary songs in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

I have heard hymns in praise of most major leaders and prophets from the Bible but I have no idea if they made it into hymnbooks.

 

There is even an ostensibly Judeo-Christian movie containing a hymn in praise of the pagan gods of Egypt

 

[Scott Lloyd]

And there are meetings where Joseph Smith is never mentioned at all.

Probably most meetings, if the truth be known.

 

And I don't buy it that there are sacrament meetings in which Jesus Christ is never mentioned. That is foreign to my experience.

[Scott Lloyd]

Do you know of any other religion, anywhere, that has a hymn in their hymnbook that is focused on "praising" one of their leaders and listing all the great things he has done? 

 

I don't know of any, but I don't know much about the songs other churches and religions sing.

I don't see why it matters in any case. Why should we refrain from doing something good and worthwhile just because there might not be anything comparable to it in the sectarian world?

 

Our purpose is clear in the words to the song: We praise Joseph Smith because he "communed with Jehovah," because "Jesus anointed that prophet and seer," because he was "blessed to open the last dispensation."

 

I'll say it again: Honoring the Prophet Joseph Smith is tantamount to honoring Jesus Christ, who accomplished His purposes through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith. It's marvelous in my eyes, and I make no excuse or apology for doing so.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

You get some Mary songs in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

I have heard hymns in praise of most major leaders and prophets from the Bible but I have no idea if they made it into hymnbooks.

 

"Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho" comes to mind, but I don't know whether it's in Protestant hymnbooks, especially predominately white ones.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Ham Clam]

So am I really the only poster here who is willing to confess that he has a scaled-down version of this in his house ...

 

 

... where sacrificial Johnnycakes are offered up both morning and night???

I want it NOW!

[Jeanne]

Getting ready for work so not much time here..just wanted to say that yes, I WAS devout.  I am in my 50's and took church history twice.  Once in seminary and then a night class.  I guess I was just listening to the wrong teachers, the wrong conferences, and reading all the wrong books and church magazines.  I do remember the peep/stone hat in the Era I believe.  Anyway, I will just close with this thought that yes, I learned a lot about JS..loved him, read all the Lund books but will admit that I haven't sat through a whole conference in about a year.  But read Church News once a week and get updates.

 

Hugs to all...

 

I am not leaving..I left

[HappyJackWagon]

Then you ought to understand why a remembrance and appreciation for all that Christ did including the marvelous events of the latter-day restoration are part and parcel of worshiping and honoring the Savior and why a 200-year anniversary observance of the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith in no way detracts from that worship and honor.

No. Not instead of a Christmas program. NEVER.

[Ahab]

Getting ready for work so not much time here..just wanted to say that yes, I WAS devout. I am in my 50's and took church history twice. Once in seminary and then a night class. I guess I was just listening to the wrong teachers, the wrong conferences, and reading all the wrong books and church magazines. I do remember the peep/stone hat in the Era I believe. Anyway, I will just close with this thought that yes, I learned a lot about JS..loved him, read all the Lund books but will admit that I haven't sat through a whole conference in about a year. But read Church News once a week and get updates.

Hugs to all...

I am not leaving..I left

Okay. Got it. You're welcome to come back if you ever want to. No explanation necessary. Just don't expect us all to become perfect while you are away.

[Storm Rider]

Getting ready for work so not much time here..just wanted to say that yes, I WAS devout.  I am in my 50's and took church history twice.  Once in seminary and then a night class.  I guess I was just listening to the wrong teachers, the wrong conferences, and reading all the wrong books and church magazines.  I do remember the peep/stone hat in the Era I believe.  Anyway, I will just close with this thought that yes, I learned a lot about JS..loved him, read all the Lund books but will admit that I haven't sat through a whole conference in about a year.  But read Church News once a week and get updates.

 

Hugs to all...

 

I am not leaving..I left

 

I only lived in Utah for a few years; I was never able to read the Church News.  It was just not something I found interesting.  

 

If you are happy then that is great.  I always took God at his word - man is that he may have joy.  Some of us are led in different paths.  

 

Lund could write a good book, but I only read a few of them and never went back.  I do enjoy some fiction, but find I read more non-fiction than anything else.  

[Ahab]

No. Not instead of a Christmas program. NEVER.

So is the baby Jesus all you want to think about at Christmas time? Nothing he said or did after that time, then? No mention of who he talked to later in his life, unless maybe it is mentioned in The Holy Bible? You just want us to stick to that book and talk about this last dispensation some other time? And then we can talk about what he did through Joseph Smith?

[Tacenda]

Okay. Got it. You're welcome to come back if you ever want to. No explanation necessary. Just don't expect us all to become perfect while you are away.

I think she meant she left the church, not Mormon Dialogue. Atleast I hope not!

[HappyJackWagon]

I was an active member of the Church in 2005. Forgive me, but I very politely find it incredible -- as in, not credible that any "they" told you not to celebrate Christmas.

It never happened.

Sorry.

No.

They are the kinds of actions that malicious people exploit as a pretext to falsely claim that we worship Joseph Smith.

Regards,

Pahoran

That's just foolish, Pahoran. If something doesn't fit your expectations it must be a lie. More anti-mormon propoganda. It's convenient to dismiss uncomfortable truths. Apologists are really good at it and it looks like you're trying to follow in those footsteps of denial. That's okay.

 

I admit that I'm amused so many on this board have a hard time admitting that something so blatantly wrong could have happened. Then we have another bunch who doesn't see that it's a big deal at all.

 

The Stake Presidency didn't say "cancel Christmas." What they said was Dec. 23rd should be focused on Joseph Smith in celebration of his birthday. We sang songs and had talks about JS. THere was no focus on Christmas...except for maybe a christmas song as the closing hymn.

 

Refusing to admit reality doesn't change it.

[Ahab]

I think she meant she left the church, not Mormon Dialogue. Atleast I hope not!

Yeah that's what I think she meant too. Edited October 15, 2014 by Ahab

[Ahab]

That's just foolish, Pahoran. If something doesn't fit your expectations it must be a lie. More anti-mormon propoganda. It's convenient to dismiss uncomfortable truths. Apologists are really good at it and it looks like you're trying to follow in those footsteps of denial. That's okay.

I admit that I'm amused so many on this board have a hard time admitting that something so blatantly wrong could have happened. Then we have another bunch who doesn't see that it's a big deal at all.

The Stake Presidency didn't say "cancel Christmas." What they said was Dec. 23rd should be focused on Joseph Smith in celebration of his birthday. We sang songs and had talks about JS. THere was no focus on Christmas...except for maybe a christmas song as the closing hymn.

Refusing to admit reality doesn't change it.

Well, you know, December 23rd was his birthday.

Have you ever been to anyone else's birthday party when their birthday is close to Christmas day, which by the way wasn't really the day he was born?

[HappyJackWagon]

So is the baby Jesus all you want to think about at Christmas time? Nothing he said or did after that time, then? No mention of who he talked to later in his life, unless maybe it is mentioned in The Holy Bible? You just want us to stick to that book and talk about this last dispensation some other time? And then we can talk about what he did through Joseph Smith?

Trying to set up a straw man? I never said that we say nothing at Christmas except the nativity. There is an entire life and mission to celebrate. Apparently you're one, like many others on this board, who are comfortable raising JS to a high level similar to Jesus Christ, even on a day when we traditionally celebrate Christ, his birth and mission. Your point might be valid if JS was mentioned in connection with Christ's mission and not when Christ is mentioned in connection with Joseph Smith.

[HappyJackWagon]

Well, you know, December 23rd was his birthday.

Have you ever been to anyone else's birthday party when their birthday is close to Christmas day, which by the way wasn't really the day he was born?

Yes, I know Dec. 23 is JS birthday but I wouldn't go to anyone's birthday party at church instead of participating in a christmas celebration.

 

Yeah, you're right. Go to church to celebrate a man's birthday in place of the Savior's. That makes sense. Apparently those who claim the church worships Joseph Smith is on to something. It sounds like many do, or at the very least don't have a problem elevating him to a position of admiration similar to the Savior's.

Edited October 15, 2014 by HappyJackWagon