Do We Worship Joseph Smith?

[JLHPROF]

It goes without saying that through Christ was are offered the opportunity to become joint-heirs with him.  To become like God by his making, his grace is true doctrine. However, between here and there is a lot of road.  Christ does not just have a head start he is a member of the Godhead; there is no comparison between him and any mere mortal. 

 

According to Mormonism, Christ was the firstborn spirit child of our spiritual generation.  If as we know, Christ has already achieved Godhood, we have to ask ourselves how.  What did Christ do to achieve Godhood without even having a physical body?

I don't believe for one second that he was spiritually born a God and we simply weren't.  I believe he merited his Godhood through his actions in the premortal world.  Given that belief along with Abraham's description of the noble and great ones I don't have any issue believing many of the prophets (especially the 6 other heads of dispensation besides Christ) are already much closer to Godhood than the average man.  When we are told Joseph has done more for mankind than anyone except our Savior I have no issue with the idea that he is closer in stature and position to our Savior than we care to realize.

Edited October 13, 2014 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

Do we worship Joseph Smith?  No.

Do I consider him just another prophet, equal with every other prophet of the Church?  No.

I revere him just as the other prophets of the dispensation do.
 

 

“I am bold to say that, Jesus Christ excepted, no better man ever lived or does live upon this earth” Brigham Young

 

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." John Taylor

 

"I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Lord. While he gave his temporal life in order that his testimony might be binding upon the children of men, I am sure as I stand here that today he is exalted in the presence of the Redeemer..."  George Albert Smith

 

“The God of all these worlds and the Son of God, the Redeemer, our Savior, in person attended [the Prophet Joseph Smith]. He saw the living God. He saw the living Christ. Few of all the man-creation had ever glimpsed such a vision. . . . Joseph now belonged to an elite group—the tried and trusted, and true. He was in a select society of persons whom Abraham describes as ‘noble and great ones’ that were ‘good’ and that were to become the Lord’s rulers."  Spencer W. Kimball

 

"...to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."  - Brigham Young

 

"If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them when they shall have been officiated for, and bring them up."  Brigham Young

 

""If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"  George Q. Cannon

 

"“[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" Joseph Fielding Smith

 

"“Some have said that I was presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham (Young) was my God and savior, Brother Joseph was his God and the one that gave Joseph (Smith) the keys of the Kingdom was his God which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the Father of Jesus Christ was Adam”   - Wilford Woodruff

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by JLHPROF

[ERayR]

I do not undermine Joseph and what God accomplished through him.  Nor am I demeaning his role as one of the prophets of a dispensation.  However, I am also not going to be so foolish has to put Joseph or any other prophet even close to the position I hold each member of the Godhead.  

 

I have always separated man from God.  I have a clear understanding of the Plan of Salvation and the purpose of this mortal life. I understand our Father's desire for each of us and the gift that offers us through Christ.  I understand that he desires to make us like him, but that does not indicate that we are him nor any other creature.  Our Father is so far beyond us as to make the conversation laughable to make a comparison. 

 

Some think that Joseph must be mentioned only in the most respectful of voices; I obviously disagree.  Men are men and God is God. 

 

Is it enough? When compared to our Savior it does not come close. 

 

I don't know anybody who does this.  In my experience this only takes place in the dementia of some critics and antis.

 

And yet he says to know him and be as he is and that we are literaly his children.  I do not think the gap is as humongous as you paint it.

 

Men are of God's family.

 

Nobody that I know are denigrating what the Savior did.

[Scott Lloyd]

I know we're just supposed to worship God and Jesus, but do we also worship Joseph Smith?

Many years ago, I frequented a secular message board that had become somewhat overrun with anti-Mormons. I tangled with someone who made the oft-repeated false accusation that Mormons worship Joseph Smith.

 

I taught the gospel doctrine class in Sunday School back then, and I pledged to put the question to my class that following Sunday and report back the results.

 

I posed the question this way: "We as Latter-day Saints worship Joseph Smith. True or false?"

 

Some in the class, wondering why I would even ask such a thing, were suspicious that it was a trick question. But once everybody understood I was in earnest, the response was unanimous and unequivocal in the negative: No, we don't worship Joseph Smith.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

I can only assume that he wasn't so thrilled with the final product. Of course, Brigham would not have known just how the critics are using his journals today to lead members away and the critics are not exactly forthcoming with the fact that many of the writings are impromtu remarks.

 

That is your assumption and I don't find any evidence that bolsters it.  In fact some of the discourses that some try to discredit the most I find most intriguing.

[Tacenda]

Many years ago, I frequented a secular message board that had become somewhat overrun with anti-Mormons. I tangled with someone who made the oft-repeated false accusation that Mormons worship Joseph Smith.

 

I taught the gospel doctrine class in Sunday School back then, and I pledged to put the question to my class that following Sunday and report back the results.

 

I posed the question this way: "We as Latter-day Saints worship Joseph Smith. True or false?"

 

Some in the class, wondering why I would even ask such a thing, were suspicious that it was a trick question. But once everybody understood I was in earnest, the response was unanimous and unequivocal in the negative: No, we don't worship Joseph Smith.

I can agree with this, though I've seen homes that have a lot more pictures of Joseph Smith than the Saviour. 

[thesometimesaint]

Who knows maybe they just like pictures of JS better? I've two pictures of the Savior on my walls and no pictures of JS.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think under normal circumstances, an individual ought to be taken as the ultimate authority on Whom he himself does and does not worship.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know we're just supposed to worship God and Jesus, but do we also worship Joseph Smith?

Brigham Young said; "From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation, the keys to rule in the spirit world, and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim -"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought! But it is true!" -Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)

 

So Joseph Smith reigns as a supreme being and we can't return to God without Joseph Smith's approval. So should we worship Joseph Smith too?

 

Joseph Smith once said; "Come on! Ye prosecutors! Ye false swearers! All hell boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet, when they get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the church, Vol. 6, p. 408,409)

 

So should we be showing more worship towards Joseph Smith?

Why do you ask? You been talking to your evangelical uncle again?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Absolutely NOT! We worship God the Father, through his Son Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

But........... What about Smithmas. It is coming up after all.

[Boanerges]

I think many in the church absolutely do worship Joseph Smith and to some of the same extent Thomas S. Monson and all the other prophets.  I don't, and I know others who don't, but I see it all around me.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Quote from the First Presidency:

"Dear Brethren. — It is well known to many of you that Elder George D. Watt, by our counsel, spent much time in the midst of poverty and hardships to acquire the art of reporting in Phonography which he has faithfully and fully accomplished; and he has been reporting the public sermons, discourses, lectures, &c., delivered by the Presidency, the Twelve and others in this city, for nearly two years, almost without fee or reward. "Elder Watt now proposes to publish a Journal of these reports, in England for the benefit of the Saints at large, and to obtain means to enable him to sustain his highly useful position of Reporter. You will perceive at once that this will be a work mutual benefit, and we cheerfully and warmly request your co-operation in the purchase and sale of the above named Journal, and wish all the profits arising therefrom to be under the control of Elder Watt." [signed] BRIGHAM YOUNG, HEBER C. KIMBALL, WILLARD RICHARDS" (Messages of the First Presidency 2:119.)

 

Yep, the first presidency approved the publication sale of the Journal of Discourses.

 

But the biggest, most telling thing about the Journals is that the General Authorities continue to quote from them in books and discourses.  They just pick and choose the bits they agree with.

There is a bit more to it esp what BY said about his own talks.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think many in the church absolutely do worship Joseph Smith and to some of the same extent Thomas S. Monson and all the other prophets.  I don't, and I know others who don't, but I see it all around me.

I repeat my last post:

 

I think under normal circumstances, an individual ought to be taken as the ultimate authority on Whom he himself does and does not worship.

 

Faced with a choice between the two possibilities, I think it more likely that it is you who are mistaking admiration and respect for worship than it is that the people you see "all around you" are worshiping Joseph Smith.

 

I base this observation on a close and lifelong association with numerous Latter-day Saints, none of whom could be reasonably perceived to be worshiping Joseph Smith.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

But........... What about Smithmas. It is coming up after all.

Oh, but don't you know? There is no such thing as anti-Mormons and critics creating a Smithmas meme. I and Daniel Peterson and Sevenbak and others have been hallucinating about it.

 

See last year's thread on the subject.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

I think under normal circumstances, an individual ought to be taken as the ultimate authority on Whom he himself does and does not worship.

Not everyone understands what it means to worship someone, though. Like how some people worship Satan without understanding or realizing what or how they are doing that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Not everyone understands what it means to worship someone, though. Like how some people worship Satan without understanding or realizing what or how they are doing that.

Here's a workable -- and normative -- definition from Merriam-Webster online:

 

2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence.

 

Don't know what's so difficult about grasping that.

 

And it's not what we do with Joseph Smith.

[JLHPROF]

Here's a workable -- and normative -- definition from Merriam-Webster online:

 

Don't know what's so difficult about grasping that.

 

And it's not what we do with Joseph Smith.

 

I half do that...the first half, not the second half. He's not a divine being (yet) but I still offer him reverence.

[Scott Lloyd]

I half do that...the first half, not the second half. He's not a divine being (yet) but I still offer him reverence.

I think the difference is easy to grasp.

[cinepro]

Here's a workable -- and normative -- definition from Merriam-Webster online:

 

Don't know what's so difficult about grasping that.

 

And it's not what we do with Joseph Smith.

 

I think there are a lot of different ways to "worship" something, so it's easy to choose the definition that works best to prove your point. 

 

But take this talk by President Kimball:

 

The False Gods We Worship

 

Are you so quick to criticize President Kimball's usage of the word?  For example, he says this:

 

 

 

But I am afraid that many of us have been surfeited with flocks and herds and acres and barns and wealth and have begun to worship them as false gods, and they have power over us.

 

Did President Kimball really think that there were LDS who actually worshiped their barns? Or was he using the term more loosely, to denote an unusual focus of affection and energy? 

 

Likewise, it's easy to point out that we don't pray to Joseph Smith, or consider him an actual God as if he were the fourth member of the Godhead.  But that ignores the ways in which we do raise him up; we sing songs of praise about him, we name buildings after him and erect statues of him.  We produce countless works of art, music, film and books about him.   Sure, we can say that he deserves all this because of his role as the first prophet of the restoration, but isn't it just as easy to say (without shame) that he deserves some form of worship in that same role?

 

Honestly, I can understand why it looks like we "worship" Joseph Smith to some people.  Heck, just last week an Apostle recommended this to the youth of the Church:

 

To the youth listening today or reading these words in the days ahead, I give a specific challenge: Gain a personal witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Let your voice help fulfill Moroni’s prophetic words to speak good of the Prophet. Here are two ideas: First, find scriptures in the Book of Mormon that you feel and know are absolutely true. Then share them with family and friends in family home evening, seminary, and your Young Men and Young Women classes, acknowledging that Joseph was an instrument in God’s hands. Next, read the testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Pearl of Great Price or in this pamphlet, now in 158 languages. You can find it online at LDS.org or with the missionaries. This is Joseph’s own testimony of what actually occurred. Read it often. Consider recording the testimony of Joseph Smith in your own voice, listening to it regularly, and sharing it with friends. Listening to the Prophet’s testimony in your own voice will help bring the witness you seek.

It's a good thing we don't worship Joseph Smith, because I would hate to see what Elder Andersen would have said if we did.

Edited October 13, 2014 by cinepro

[Scott Lloyd]

 

I think there are a lot of different ways to "worship" something, so it's easy to choose the definition that works best to prove your point. 

 

But take this talk by President Kimball:

 

The False Gods We Worship

 

Are you so quick to criticize President Kimball's usage of the word?  For example, he says this:

 

 

 

 

Did President Kimball really think that there were LDS who actually worshiped their barns? Or was he using the term more loosely, to denote an unusual focus of affection and energy? 

 

Likewise, it's easy to point out that we don't pray to Joseph Smith, or consider him an actual God as if he were the fourth member of the Godhead.  But that ignores the ways in which we do raise him up; we sing songs of praise about him, we name buildings after him and erect statues of him.  We produce countless works of art, music, film and books about him.   Sure, we can say that he deserves all this because of his role as the first prophet of the restoration, but isn't it just as easy to say (without shame) that he deserves some form of worship in that same role?

 

 

As much as to say we worship George Washington. We have a holiday in his name (or did). There have been songs written about him, statues raised to him. Arguably the most prominent monument in the nation's capital was erected to his honor, a nation's capital, by the way, that was named after him. He has been the subject of countless films, works of art, etc. Every schoolchild learns early about George Washington and the designation that is still applied to him as the "Father of Our Country." One state of the Union bears his name, as have untold public schools and institutions of higher education. His is the most prominent and frequently seen image on our national currency.

 

How would most Americans view it if the conception were sent far and wide, disparagingly, that Americans "worship" George Washington?

 

When antagonistic critics say we worship Joseph Smith, they are trying to convey the false idea that we regard him as equal to the Godhead. I think this is easy to see.

 

It's a good thing we don't worship Joseph Smith, because I would hate to see what Elder Andersen would have said if we did.

 

 

I'm not embarrassed by what Elder Anderson said. It accurately describes our love and honor for the Prophet of the Restoration.

 

But it doesn't amount to worship. And we don't need to allow our detractors to shame us into not giving him the honor and admiration that is due him.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

As much as to say we worship George Washington. We have a holiday in his name (or did). There have been songs written about him, statues raised to him. Arguably the most prominent monument in the nation's capital was erected to his honor.

 

How would most Americans react if the word were sent far and wide that Americans "worship" George Washington?

 

When antagonistic critics say we worship Joseph Smith, they are trying to convey the false idea that we regard him as equal to the Godhead. I think this is easy to see.

 

 

I'm not embarrassed by what Elder Anderson said. It accurately describers our love and honor for the Prophet of the Restoration.

 

But it doesn't amount to worship.

 

I agree with all this in general.

But my reverence and respect for Joseph Smith is much different than my reverence for George Washington.

Joseph Smith may not be a member of the Godhead, but his position to me (and to all members of our dispensation) should have him firmly placed right beneath our Savior.

 

When it come to reverence and respect for the people who will determine my salvation and exaltation it goes:

#3 - Joseph Smith

#2 - My Savior Jesus Christ

#1 - My God and Heavenly Father

 

and I don't believe we get to skip straight to number 2 or number 1.  And I revere that position, even if I don't pray to Joseph Smith.

[Ahab]

Here's a workable -- and normative -- definition from Merriam-Webster online:

Don't know what's so difficult about grasping that.

And it's not what we do with Joseph Smith.

Explain how it is not what we do with Joseph Smith, instead of just saying it's not.

We are all God, being the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, so maybe you should also explain what you mean by divine or supernatural.

I don't think the distinction is as clear cut as you seem to think it is. It is something I have trouble explaining. I believe worship is all about emulation, trying to become like the object of worship or at least making it a big part of our lives, and if it were not for Joseph Smith, or the things our Father and Lord did through him, we wouldn't have much of a religion.

[Pahoran]

Of course we don't.  Does anyone credibly claim to believe that we do?

 

Regards,
Pahoran

[Ahab]

Of course we don't. Does anyone credibly claim to believe that we do?

Regards,

Pahoran

Yup. Welcome to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

[Hamba Tuhan]

So am I really the only poster here who is willing to confess that he has a scaled-down version of this in his house ...

 

 

... where sacrificial Johnnycakes are offered up both morning and night???