Do We Worship Joseph Smith?

[Scott Lloyd]

I hear you. I just disagree with you. Honoring Joseph Smith is not the same thing as honoring Jesus Christ and as long as many members feel that way, the church will continue to be accused of worshipping Joseph Smith.

Yes, many people will continue to spread falsehood. I understand that.

 

Doesn't mean we should allow them to goad us into changing our doctrine or our earnestly held beliefs.

[why me]

Absurd. You can't believe it because it is offensive and you don't want to believe the church leaders would do that. I understand but you're wrong. They did it and it absolutely IS lifting JS above Christ when we decide to worship his birthday instead of Christmas. Wrap your brain around it. Church leaders did something5  really stupid and it caused problems not only for members but for non-member family members and less actives who came to church at Christmas time to worship Christ. Instead, we worshiped Joseph Smith, though no one would ever really admit that what was done.

I think that you got this one wrong. But lets say for the sake of argument that you are right. Why leave the church over a silly 'mistake' like this. People are allowed to make mistakes in their life. No one decided to worship JS over Christ for Christmas. But maybe someone went over board. So what? But I also tend to doubt that it was done the way you say it was done. But really what does it matter if a mistake was made? I have never seen perfection in my life and I don't expect church leaders to be perfect. And I can honestly say that I have never seen a December christmas greeting meeting from salt lake celebrating christmas with joseph smith at the center.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I'll repeat something I've said in the past: It's remarkable that some people who couldn't be bothered to crack open a Church history book in the past suddenly become omnivorous consumer so fall things anti-Mormon once they begin to fall away.

This is a problematic way to look at it as well. I've always read church history. I've been very active in reading and studying various aspects...BUT...I was always studying from church approved sources and Deseret Book printed publications. I was always afraid to look at anything from any other source. So when the church began releasing additional information in the Joseph Smith Papers etc and Deseret Book started printing more controversial historical issues then it opened the floodgates for many. Assuming that people were lazy because they didn't know JS practiced polyandry or married 14 year old girls is silly. People trusted the church narrative. When information became more accessible then they studied voraciously

[JLHPROF]

Excellent definition of worship.

Tell me again though, is this not the way the church views Joseph Smith? A sacred personage- he's done more for mankind save Jesus Christ. Reverent Honor- a few years ago when Sunday fell on Dec. 23 (JS's birthday) our stake, and many surrounding stakes) gave instructions to have a Sacrament Meeting focused on Joseph Smith on DECEMBER 23rd. Forget Christmas, we'll celebrate the birth of JS.

 

Of Course.  Christ was born on April 6th, not in December.  Why would we not have a meeting dedicated to Joseph Smith around December 23rd and one dedicated to Christ in April?

[HappyJackWagon]

I think that you got this one wrong. But lets say for the sake of argument that you are right. Why leave the church over a silly 'mistake' like this. People are allowed to make mistakes in their life. No one decided to worship JS over Christ for Christmas. But maybe someone went over board. So what? But I also tend to doubt that it was done the way you say it was done. But really what does it matter if a mistake was made? I have never seen perfection in my life and I don't expect church leaders to be perfect. And I can honestly say that I have never seen a December christmas greeting meeting from salt lake celebrating christmas with joseph smith at the center.

I never said I left the church over this but for someone this could have been a last straw. Some people are hanging on by their fingernails and then showing up for  a Christmas, JS worship service is too much.

 

I love that everyone is quick to call me a liar. This is something I witnessed personally and fought against before it actually happened. I lost that fight and it happened. This is one example. Other people have their examples. We should recognize that people do make mistakes like this and this is WHY people think we worship Joseph Smith. Why does this matter? Becuase I don't worship Joseph Smith and I am opposed to anyone thinking that I do because I'm Mormon.

[JLHPROF]

Martyrs do not have guns.  Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives.  I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

 

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

 

Don't know about kicked off, but you are completely wrong.

 

1. Martyrs can absolutley have a gun or resist.  There is no requirement for a martyr to be a pacifist.  A martyr is anyone who is killed for a cause, just as Joseph was killed for his religion.

 

2. Yes, Joseph had more than one wife, just like EVERY prophet chosen of God where we have record of their family life.  Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, (and as anyone with any common sense will acknowledge, Christ).

[HappyJackWagon]

Of Course.  Christ was born on April 6th, not in December.  Why would we not have a meeting dedicated to Joseph Smith around December 23rd and one dedicated to Christ in April?

Oh, please. I don't have the energy to argue the April 6th thing. But, the Christian world celebrates Christmas as December 25th. If our church chooses to celebrate it at a different time that will just be one more thing to make us a peculiar people and I will skip every Christmas time service were it ever to be switched to Joseph Smith day.

[why me]

I loved Joseph Smith.  I reveled him.  Probably I would be the one to say that I worshiped him.  My heart just broke because of this man.  I feel that you all see my anger and to that I apologize and should think before I speak; but JS wasn't put into jail for his religion.  He destroyed a printing press and broke the law.

You got this wrong. He was killed for his religion and for the hostility that it not only brought him but also other members. He was not the only member that was killed. Also, mormon printing presses were burned down and their property too and nothing happened to the perpretrators. What would you have done if you were a mormon living in nauvoo who fled the mobs and their hatred whose printing presses were printing hostile comments in their papers and after moving to nauvoo to seek peace, someone was to begin a newspaper that was not going to be too favorable to mormons? Would you welcome this newspaper with open arms? Or would you be fearful that the mobs would again come and burn your home down again because of what this newspaper may be reporting? And we need to remember that it wasn't just JS involved with the printing press but the town council which had the support of the residents. 

[why me]

I never said I left the church over this but for someone this could have been a last straw. Some people are hanging on by their fingernails and then showing up for  a Christmas, JS worship service is too much.

 

I love that everyone is quick to call me a liar. This is something I witnessed personally and fought against before it actually happened. I lost that fight and it happened. This is one example. Other people have their examples. We should recognize that people do make mistakes like this and this is WHY people think we worship Joseph Smith. Why does this matter? Becuase I don't worship Joseph Smith and I am opposed to anyone thinking that I do because I'm Mormon.

I guess a local church made a mistake. What to do? Like I said, I have never been to one where JS was worshipped. And most on this board hasn't either. But yes, mistakes are made. So what? People need to stop leaving over trivial things. The fact is that the lds have a book of mormon. Is it true or not? Now that is an issue to leave over. Did the 11 witnesses get it all wrong? Or did they get it right? And why did they keep to their testimonies throughout their lives, even on their deathbed? Now those are questions to leave over if one can find critical answers for. But not because of a mistake. Members need to get a life. No church can survive perfection because they are made up of imperfect people.

[ERayR]

Oh, please. I don't have the energy to argue the April 6th thing. But, the Christian world celebrates Christmas as December 25th. If our church chooses to celebrate it at a different time that will just be one more thing to make us a peculiar people and I will skip every Christmas time service were it ever to be switched to Joseph Smith day.

I am sorry you feel that way.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is a problematic way to look at it as well. I've always read church history. I've been very active in reading and studying various aspects...BUT...I was always studying from church approved sources and Deseret Book printed publications. I was always afraid to look at anything from any other source. So when the church began releasing additional information in the Joseph Smith Papers etc and Deseret Book started printing more controversial historical issues then it opened the floodgates for many. Assuming that people were lazy because they didn't know JS practiced polyandry or married 14 year old girls is silly. People trusted the church narrative. When information became more accessible then they studied voraciously

I've been in the Church my whole life, and I just passed my 60th birthday.

 

Never, in all that time, have I had anyone in the Church even hint to me that I could only read and study Church-approved or Church-correlated sources.

 

And many, many people, both inside and outside of the Church refuse or neglect to "study voraciously," despite there being an abundance of material.

 

Again, I wish that were different, but I can't change the facts.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I never said I left the church over this but for someone this could have been a last straw. Some people are hanging on by their fingernails and then showing up for  a Christmas, JS worship service is too much.

 

I love that everyone is quick to call me a liar. This is something I witnessed personally and fought against before it actually happened. I lost that fight and it happened. This is one example. Other people have their examples. We should recognize that people do make mistakes like this and this is WHY people think we worship Joseph Smith. Why does this matter? Becuase I don't worship Joseph Smith and I am opposed to anyone thinking that I do because I'm Mormon.

I don't think anyone's calling you a liar.

 

But people's perceptions and memories can be affected by their own pre-dispositions.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

Absurd. You can't believe it because it is offensive and you don't want to believe the church leaders would do that. I understand but you're wrong. They did it and it absolutely IS lifting JS above Christ when we decide to worship his birthday instead of Christmas. Wrap your brain around it. Church leaders did something really stupid and it caused problems not only for members but for non-member family members and less actives who came to church at Christmas time to worship Christ. Instead, we worshiped Joseph Smith, though no one would ever really admit that what was done.

 

The Savior has been the central focus of every single sacrament meeting in the church since it was restored.  The purpose of sacrament meeting is to partake of the sacrament and renew our covenants with God.  Aside from temple worship, this should be the spiritual center, not only of the meeting, but the day and the week as well.  Our lives revolve around and are given purpose by this holy ordinance and sacred time in which we have to ponder the Savior's atonement.

 

Saying that a sacrament meeting was not about Christ is missing the point of why one is there.

[JLHPROF]

Oh, please. I don't have the energy to argue the April 6th thing. But, the Christian world celebrates Christmas as December 25th. If our church chooses to celebrate it at a different time that will just be one more thing to make us a peculiar people and I will skip every Christmas time service were it ever to be switched to Joseph Smith day.

 

1. We are SUPPOSED to be a peculiar people.  If we ever aren't it's because we are in apostasy.

 

2. What a silly thing to skip a meeting over.

 

I swear sometimes I think many of our members WANT us to be just another evangelical sect, praying to Christ, downplaying our differences, and being just "one of the gang".

 

During his life, even Christ refused any worship, but we do it anyway.  Are we breaking a commandment?

[ksfisher]

 

2. Yes, Joseph had more than one wife, just like EVERY prophet chosen of God where we have record of their family life.  Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, (and as anyone with any common sense will acknowledge, Christ).

 

You might want to reword this one.  I can name quite a number of prophets who have had only one wife.  Thomas S Monson, Gordon B Hinckley, Howard W Hunter, etc.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I guess a local church made a mistake. What to do? Like I said, I have never been to one where JS was worshipped. And most on this board hasn't either. But yes, mistakes are made. So what?

The "so what" is that we need to learn from mistakes so they're not repeated.

[HappyJackWagon]

The Savior has been the central focus of every single sacrament meeting in the church since it was restored.  The purpose of sacrament meeting is to partake of the sacrament and renew our covenants with God.  Aside from temple worship, this should be the spiritual center, not only of the meeting, but the day and the week as well.  Our lives revolve around and are given purpose by this holy ordinance and sacred time in which we have to ponder the Savior's atonement.

 

Saying that a sacrament meeting was not about Christ is missing the point of why one is there.

It is true that the Sacrament focuses the attention on Christ and that is the main reason we meet. But aside from the Sacrament there are many sacrament meetings where Jesus Christ is only mentioned as the talk is closed.  

 

2. What a silly thing to skip a meeting over.

 

I swear sometimes I think many of our members WANT us to be just another evangelical sect, praying to Christ, downplaying our differences, and being just "one of the gang".

 

Either you missed the context of this, didn't understand or you think it would be okay to have Christmas worship services focused on Joseph Smith instead of Christ. If the church decided to focus the December meeting on JS, like they did in this one case in my area, then I don't think it would be a small thing. I want to worship the Savior, not JS and I'm not willing to be Peculiar in this way.

[Ahab]

It is true that the Sacrament focuses the attention on Christ and that is the main reason we meet. But aside from the Sacrament there are many sacrament meetings where Jesus Christ is only mentioned as the talk is closed.

Either you missed the context of this, didn't understand or you think it would be okay to have Christmas worship services focused on Joseph Smith instead of Christ. If the church decided to focus the December meeting on JS, like they did in this one case in my area, then I don't think it would be a small thing. I want to worship the Savior, not JS and I'm not willing to be Peculiar in this way.

I'm interested in knowing what you mean when you say those members were "worshipping" Joseph Smith. It could be just your perception that they were "worshipping" him because of the way you define what "worship" is.

So what were they doing that you are calling "worshipping" him?

Singing songs about him? Talking about him?

What exactly did they do to "worship" him?

[Scott Lloyd]

It is true that the Sacrament focuses the attention on Christ and that is the main reason we meet. But aside from the Sacrament there are many sacrament meetings where Jesus Christ is only mentioned as the talk is closed.  

 

Either you missed the context of this, didn't understand or you think it would be okay to have Christmas worship services focused on Joseph Smith instead of Christ. If the church decided to focus the December meeting on JS, like they did in this one case in my area, then I don't think it would be a small thing. I want to worship the Savior, not JS and I'm not willing to be Peculiar in this way.

For believing Latter-day Saints, a large part of worshiping the Savior is recognizing and appreciating the miracle He wrought in the latter-day restoration of the gospel, priesthood keys and salvific ordinances through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith.

 

Take that away and we lose much of the precious whole; we would hardly have any more than what other Christian sects have.

 

Edited to add:

 

The question just occurred to me: If I'm worshiping Christ at the celebration of His birth into mortality, does that mean I neglect to appreciate and remember his resurrection and Atonement? I believe it was President Hinckley who pointed out that the Nativity would be meaningless with the events at the end of His life.

 

Similarly, much of what we have that is precious and essential would be lost if we neglected the wonderful, prophesied events of the Restoration in the latter days.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The "so what" is that we need to learn from mistakes so they're not repeated.

I am pretty sure that you do this too. So what. Don't act like you are all perfect.

[HappyJackWagon]

I am pretty sure that you do this too. So what. Don't act like you are all perfect.

I'm not sure why you're so testy about this. I never claimed I was perfect. What I did was describe a situation and the problems it caused and someone else asked "so what?" So I answered why I think it's important to learn from our mistakes. Does that make me self righteous? Maybe in your mind. Nothing I can do about that.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The question just occurred to me: If I'm worshiping Christ at the celebration of His birth into mortality, does that mean I neglect to appreciate and remember his resurrection and Atonement? I believe it was President Hinckley who pointed out that the Nativity would be meaningless with the events at the end of His life.

I agree completely.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree completely.

Then you ought to understand why a remembrance and appreciation for all that Christ did including the marvelous events of the latter-day restoration are part and parcel of worshiping and honoring the Savior and why a 200-year anniversary observance of the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith in no way detracts from that worship and honor.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not sure why you're so testy about this. I never claimed I was perfect. What I did was describe a situation and the problems it caused and someone else asked "so what?" So I answered why I think it's important to learn from our mistakes. Does that make me self righteous? Maybe in your mind. Nothing I can do about that.

Yeah so what.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a problematic way to look at it as well. I've always read church history. I've been very active in reading and studying various aspects...BUT...I was always studying from church approved sources and Deseret Book printed publications. I was always afraid to look at anything from any other source. So when the church began releasing additional information in the Joseph Smith Papers etc and Deseret Book started printing more controversial historical issues then it opened the floodgates for many. Assuming that people were lazy because they didn't know JS practiced polyandry or married 14 year old girls is silly. People trusted the church narrative. When information became more accessible then they studied voraciously

You only studied from "church approved" materials. And just what are church approved materials?

 

I mean I studied it all. I read the Tanner stuff I came to this board and read all sorts of articles from non church approved material. I was never told to only study church approved stuff. There is not even a group of materials that are "church approved".

 

In the mission field I was told to only read what was approved for missionaries in the mission to read. But even then I read all sorts of things.

 

Not sure I would call it lazy, just perhaps a bit misinformed. What is the church to do when people have a mistaken view of something? Such as the "church approved materials". They already tell us to study from the best books. Some of those are not LDS.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram