Do We Worship Joseph Smith?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Martyrs do not have guns.  Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives.  I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

 

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

Oh please. The whole gun thing. You clearly are ignorant of it.

 

Tell me the story please. "You left the church because you found out JS had a gun at Carthage".

 

Literally one of the worst, least thought out, reasons to leave.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Scott Lloyd]

Excellent definition of worship.

Tell me again though, is this not the way the church views Joseph Smith? A sacred personage- he's done more for mankind save Jesus Christ.

In essence saying that he has done more for mankind than any other mortal except Jesus Christ. I believe that is true. But it's not the same as worshiping Joseph.

 

Who has done more for the salvation of mankind than Jesus, if it's not Joseph Smith? And whoever it is, does believing so amount to worshiping that person?

 

 

Reverent Honor- a few years ago when Sunday fell on Dec. 23 (JS's birthday) our stake, and many surrounding stakes) gave instructions to have a Sacrament Meeting focused on Joseph Smith on DECEMBER 23rd. Forget Christmas, we'll celebrate the birth of JS.

 

Sorry, but I refuse to believe your stake leaders told you to forget Christmas.

 

And I'm guessing, if this was a few years ago, it fell on the 200th anniversary of the Prophet's birth. I don't think there is anything inappropriate or untoward about giving extra focus to observance of his birth on a landmark year like this that only comes around once every hundred years or so.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Martyrs do not have guns.  Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives.  I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

 

 

CFR that martyrs do not have guns.

 

And Joseph was commanded by God to institute and practice plural marriage in this dispensation.

 

 

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

 

If drive-by sniping like this is going to be your pattern, perhaps you do need to take a break.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Excellent definition of worship.

Tell me again though, is this not the way the church views Joseph Smith? A sacred personage- he's done more for mankind save Jesus Christ. Reverent Honor- a few years ago when Sunday fell on Dec. 23 (JS's birthday) our stake, and many surrounding stakes) gave instructions to have a Sacrament Meeting focused on Joseph Smith on DECEMBER 23rd. Forget Christmas, we'll celebrate the birth of JS.

Uh'uh. Do tell us more. Did they sing Smithmas carols too?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

CFR that martyrs do not have guns.

No, it is for shock and awe, as you well know. And I am not going to just sit here and have some one throw it in my face. JS being given a gun when he got to the jail in no way negates his martyrdom status.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Ahab]

Martyrs do not have guns. Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives. I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

Well at least you're aware that some people are kinda touchy when others denigrate or cast aspersions on Joseph Smith. I tend to look at people's actions instead of trying to judge or evaluate the person as a whole and I do see a lot of good things to emulate in how Joseph Smith was, and probably still is. And if you can't see those good qualities in Joseph Smith then you just can't see a lot of the good things I can see.

[HappyJackWagon]

Oh please. The whole gun thing. You clearly are ignorant of it.

 

Tell me the story please. "You left the church because you found out JS had a gun at Carthage".

 

Literally one of the worst, least thought out, reasons to leave.

Maybe, but it plays into the larger narrative of Joseph Smith and the church as innocent and pure or as Elder Anderson quoted John Taylor "I testify before God, angels, and men, that [Joseph] was a good, honorable, [and] virtuous man— … [and] that his private and public character was unimpeachable—and that he lived and died as a man of God.”

 

It creates an unrealistic caricature of who we think Joseph Smith was when in fact the details prove him to be a much more complex person.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, it is for shock and awe, as you well know. And I am not going to just sit here and have some one throw it in my face. JS being given a gun when he got to the jail in no way negates is martyrdom status.

We've been over this repeatedly on this board, yet it still continues to crop up.

 

Being a martyr means that one refuses to renounce his convictions as a price for being allowed to stay alive. It does not mean that he has to passively accept being murdered.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Maybe, but it plays into the larger narrative of Joseph Smith and the church as innocent and pure or as Elder Anderson quoted John Taylor "I testify before God, angels, and men, that [Joseph] was a good, honorable, [and] virtuous man— … [and] that his private and public character was unimpeachable—and that he lived and died as a man of God.”

 

It creates an unrealistic caricature of who we think Joseph Smith was when in fact the details prove him to be a much more complex person.

Yeah so. He was still a virtuous man. What they said was not false. It just is not the narrative you and other critics like.

[HappyJackWagon]

In essence saying that he has done more for mankind than any other mortal except Jesus Christ. I believe that is true. But it's not the same as worshiping Joseph.

 

Who has done more for the salvation of mankind than Jesus, if it's not Joseph Smith? And whoever it is, does believing so amount to worshiping that person?

 

 

Sorry, but I refuse to believe your stake leaders told you to forget Christmas.

 

And I'm guessing, if this was a few years ago, it fell on the 200th anniversary of the Prophet's birth. I don't think there is anything inappropriate or untoward about giving extra focus to observance of his birth on a landmark year like this that only comes around once every hundred years or so.

They absolutely did tell us to celebrate JS birthday instead of Christmas. We sang Praise to the man. I remember it well because it really ticked me off. And I don't care if it was the 200th anniversary (you're probably right about that), there is never any occassion where we should hold up JS before Christ. THESE are the types of actions that reasonably cause people to think the church worships JS.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe, but it plays into the larger narrative of Joseph Smith and the church as innocent and pure or as Elder Anderson quoted John Taylor "I testify before God, angels, and men, that [Joseph] was a good, honorable, [and] virtuous man— … [and] that his private and public character was unimpeachable—and that he lived and died as a man of God.”

 

It creates an unrealistic caricature of who we think Joseph Smith was when in fact the details prove him to be a much more complex person.

Please look up the word unimpeachable. It does not mean perfect.

 

It's akin to saying that someone is of sterling or impeccable character. If that meant the person being described was perfect, we couldn't apply it to anyone other than Christ Himself.

[Jeanne]

Oh please. The whole gun thing. You clearly are ignorant of it.

 

Tell me the story please. "You left the church because you found out JS had a gun at Carthage".

 

Literally one of the worst, least thought out, reasons to leave.

I didn't leave the church because of this..I didn't know about a lot of things even after I left.  I have my reasons.  They are no more a joke than why you stay.

[Scott Lloyd]

They absolutely did tell us to celebrate JS birthday instead of Christmas. We sang Praise to the man. I remember it well because it really ticked me off. And I don't care if it was the 200th anniversary (you're probably right about that), there is never any occassion where we should hold up JS before Christ. THESE are the types of actions that reasonably cause people to think the church worships JS.

I still don't believe they told you to ignore Christ or "to hold up Joseph Smith before Christ."

 

And at any rate, honoring Joseph Smith for his role as Prophet of the Restoration is not ignoring Christ, since Joseph was an instrument in Christ's hands for accomplishing His purposes in latter days.

[Jeanne]

Well at least you're aware that some people are kinda touchy when others denigrate or cast aspersions on Joseph Smith. I tend to look at people's actions instead of trying to judge or evaluate the person as a whole and I do see a lot of good things to emulate in how Joseph Smith was, and probably still is. And if you can't see those good qualities in Joseph Smith then you just can't see a lot of the good things I can see.

I loved Joseph Smith.  I reveled him.  Probably I would be the one to say that I worshiped him.  My heart just broke because of this man.  I feel that you all see my anger and to that I apologize and should think before I speak; but JS wasn't put into jail for his religion.  He destroyed a printing press and broke the law.

[Ahab]

We've been over this repeatedly on this board, yet it still continues to crop up.

Being a martyr means that one refuses to renounce his convictions as price for being allowed to stay alive. It does not mean that they have to passively accept being murdered.

I hereby nominate your post for a sticky thread that would be kinda nice to have so we don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over. We could just say something like "see the sticky thread, post # (whatever the post # would be in the sticky thread), and that would be that. And then we would move on to the next issue.

And I would also like to hereby nominate one of my posts in this thread as a good definition for what it means to worship someone or something.

And now onto the next issue

[HappyJackWagon]

Yeah so. He was still a virtuous man. What they said was not false. It just is not the narrative you and other critics like.

When the church focus's on JS as this near perfect prophet who communed with Jehovah, as a virtuous, praiseworthy, unimpeachable man, they do a disservice because they paint a picture that no one can live up to. They raise him on a high pedastal from which he will fall when people learn some of the less virtuous aspects of his life.

 

The critique I have is that this is nowhere near a complete representation of who Joseph Smith was. You can dismiss me easily if you like but this is a problem the church is facing right now. Expectations are set so high people are tumbling into doubt when they realize JS cannot meet those expectations.

[Scott Lloyd]

I loved Joseph Smith.  I reveled him.  Probably I would be the one to say that I worshiped him.  My heart just broke because of this man.  I feel that you all see my anger and to that I apologize and should think before I speak; but JS wasn't put into jail for his religion.  He destroyed a printing press and broke the law.

He wasn't put into jail for destroying a printing press either.

 

He was put into jail ostensibly under "protective custody" while he awaited a hearing on charges of inciting to riot, stemming from Nauvoo being placed under martial law to defend the citizens from marauding mobs. Actually, it was all in line with a plot so his enemies could get him isolated so they could murder him.

 

And afterward the members of the Nauvoo City Council were acquitted on charges pertaining to the destruction of the printing press. Did you know that?

 

Please do some reading on Church history from reliable sources before spouting off like this.

[Ahab]

When the church focus's on JS as this near perfect prophet who communed with Jehovah, as a virtuous, praiseworthy, unimpeachable man, they do a disservice because they paint a picture that no one can live up to. They raise him on a high pedastal from which he will fall when people learn some of the less virtuous aspects of his life.

The critique I have is that this is nowhere near a complete representation of who Joseph Smith was. You can dismiss me easily if you like but this is a problem the church is facing right now. Expectations are set so high people are tumbling into doubt when they realize JS cannot meet those expectations.

He actually was as good a man as most members will say that he was. You've just bought into a lot of false testimony against him, as if the false testimony is true Edited October 14, 2014 by Ahab

[HappyJackWagon]

I still don't believe they told you to ignore Christ or "to hold up Joseph Smith before Christ."

 

And at any rate, honoring Joseph Smith for his role as Prophet of the Restoration is not ignoring Christ, since Joseph was an instrument in Christ's hands for accomplishing His purposes in latter days.

Absurd. You can't believe it because it is offensive and you don't want to believe the church leaders would do that. I understand but you're wrong. They did it and it absolutely IS lifting JS above Christ when we decide to worship his birthday instead of Christmas. Wrap your brain around it. Church leaders did something really stupid and it caused problems not only for members but for non-member family members and less actives who came to church at Christmas time to worship Christ. Instead, we worshiped Joseph Smith, though no one would ever really admit that what was done.

[why me]

Martyrs do not have guns.  Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives.  I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate.

 

(I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.

Actually, martyrs can have guns or weapons. For example, the jews at the warsaw ghetto had more than guns and yet, we can claim them to be martyrs. Also the jews at Massada had weapons and they can be claimed to be martyrs because they gave their lives because of their jewish faith. There is nothing in the rule book that states that martyrs must go quietly to their deaths. Was joan de arch a martyr? I think so.

 

I don't think that he was squeezed in between wives. It seems that the women who he was sealed to genuinely loved him and respected him. And they never said a bad word about him even after he was murdered. Can you be sure that you got it right about him? I think that most women are smart enough to see a lustful guy in the bedroom or a guy who was in it for himself. But this doesn't seem to the case with JS.

[Scott Lloyd]

When the church focus's on JS as this near perfect prophet who communed with Jehovah, as a virtuous, praiseworthy, unimpeachable man, they do a disservice because they paint a picture that no one can live up to. They raise him on a high pedastal from which he will fall when people learn some of the less virtuous aspects of his life.

 

The critique I have is that this is nowhere near a complete representation of who Joseph Smith was. You can dismiss me easily if you like but this is a problem the church is facing right now. Expectations are set so high people are tumbling into doubt when they realize JS cannot meet those expectations.

People are tumbling into doubt because they uncritically accept slanted narratives from antagonistic sources.

[Scott Lloyd]

Absurd. You can't believe it because it is offensive and you don't want to believe the church leaders would do that. I understand but you're wrong.

I can't believe it because it makes no sense and it is absolutely out-of-character with what Church leaders do on either a local or a general level.

 

They did it and it absolutely IS lifting JS above Christ when we decide to worship his birthday instead of Christmas. Wrap your brain around it. Church leaders did something really stupid and it caused problems not only for members but for non-member family members and less actives who came to church at Christmas time to worship Christ. Instead, we worshiped Joseph Smith, though no one would ever really admit that what was done.

 

Wrap your brain around the fact that honoring Joseph Smith is tantamount to honoring Christ, because it was Christ who called him and worked through him.

 

And no, there is not a thing wrong with honoring the man in a landmark year such as a bicentennial, regardless of the time of year in which the birth occurred.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

People are tumbling into doubt because they uncritically accept slanted narratives from antagonistic sources.

So the critical are uncritically accepting slanted narratives? Faithful members are looking to antagonistic sources like Rough Stone Rolling and the LDS.org essays to learn troubling things about JS they didn't know because they weren't taught as part of the correlated history.

[Scott Lloyd]

So the critical are uncritically accepting slanted narratives? Faithful members are looking to antagonistic sources like Rough Stone Rolling and the LDS.org essays to learn troubling things about JS they didn't know because they weren't taught as part of the correlated history.

Many of them are. I wish more would, but you can't force people to read and study, whether they be faithful or apostate. I wouldn't choose to force them, even if I could.

 

I'll repeat something I've said in the past: It's remarkable that some people who couldn't be bothered to crack open a Church history book in the past suddenly become omnivorous consumers of all things anti-Mormon once they begin to fall away.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Wrap your brain around the fact that honoring Joseph Smith is tantamount to honoring Christ, because it was Christ who called him and worked through him.

I hear you. I just disagree with you. Honoring Joseph Smith is not the same thing as honoring Jesus Christ and as long as many members feel that way, the church will continue to be accused of worshipping Joseph Smith.