Tacenda Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 The answer may lie in the assumption that Jesus' birth is really on April 6th, closer to Easter. And I don't even want to begin with Easter Services in LDS churches, that is a whole other ball of wax!! 1
Calm Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) The cover was of the First Vision, which is not important because JS was present, but because Christ and the Father were.I prefer first vision pictures that don't show God as no picture can come close to the reality, IMO. Edited October 16, 2014 by calmoriah
Popular Post Silhouette Posted October 16, 2014 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2014 I believe that worship involves intent. If it is not one's intent to worship something or someone, then they aren't worshipping. When I sing "Praise to the Man", it has never occurred to me that this was a form of worshipping Joseph Smith. I personally don't believe that it is, and it's not my intent to worship him while I'm singing it, therefore, I'm not worshipping him at all. To me it's just a fun, lively song to sing.If my ward held a Sacrament meeting focusing on Joseph Smith the Sunday before Christmas, it wouldn't bother me in the least. I wouldn't view such an event as detracting from Christ, because in my own heart, Christ is still more important than Joseph Smith.Like I said, I think it's all about the intent in one's heart as to whether or not they are "worshipping" something or someone. 7
HappyJackWagon Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Silhouette, I appreciate your thoughts though I do think actions can reasonably appear to be worship by others who are viewing the behavior and don't have an inside view of the intentions or heart of the person participating. 1wor·ship noun \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\: the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god: excessive admiration for someoneWould it be possible for a reasonable person to misinterpret these actions, both on the individual or institutional level. It doesn't mean they are right. I'm merely suggesting that this is a reason why people could reasonably think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. Edited October 17, 2014 by HappyJackWagon
Scott Lloyd Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) The cover was of the First Vision, which is not important because JS was present, but because Christ and the Father were. Good observation. And just as Christ is present in depictions of the First Vision, He is also present in discussions of and themed meetings about Joseph Smith, because it was Christ who called and commissioned Joseph Smith and gave him keys and authority to do what he did. What I wonder is if what the critics really want is some typically sectarian concept of Christ served up without any of the light, knowledge and revelation that has come to us by virtue of the latter-day Restoration. An altogether wrong-headed attitude, to put it mildly. Edited October 17, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Silhouette, I appreciate your thoughts though I do think actions can reasonably appear to be worship by others who are viewing the behavior and don't have an inside view of the intentions or heart of the person participating. Would it be possible for a reasonable person to misinterpret these actions, both on the individual or institutional level. It doesn't mean they are right. I'm merely suggesting that this is a reason why people could reasonably think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. Assuming for the moment that they do so reasonably, is it reasonable for them to continue to think so after repeated correction and clarification from those in a position to know best: the Church and its members themselves? Edited October 17, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Ahab Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 You must not have read the thread conversation very closely but that's okay.I do know the difference. It is difficult to approach the Stake President to question his directive but I did that at the time. He put me in my place quite quickly and the Sacrament Meetings throughout the Stake went forward as he directed.No I didn't see you mention anything before about talking with the stake president about it and I'd like to hear more about what he said, and how you brought it up to him. But you're not really trying to be like a news reporter, it seems.At this point I'm thinking he was either very disrespectful of our Father and our Lord by putting the focus on Joseph Smith, or it wasn't as bad as you think it was, and I'm leaning toward the latter.
Silhouette Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Silhouette,I appreciate your thoughts though I do think actions can reasonably appear to be worship by others who are viewing the behavior and don't have an inside view of the intentions or heart of the person participating.Would it be possible for a reasonable person to misinterpret these actions, both on the individual or institutional level. It doesn't mean they are right. I'm merely suggesting that this is a reason why people could reasonably think Mormons worship Joseph Smith.I thought about this after I made my earlier post. I can see where an outside observer might think we worship Joseph Smith in these circumstances. 1
ERayR Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Officially the LDS Church does not worship Joseph Smith, but the reverence shown to him borders on worship. Which, in some circles, can be said for pancakes and waffles. If you don't believe me go to any IHOP on any given Sunday.
ERayR Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) The answer may lie in the assumption that Jesus' birth is really on April 6th, closer to Easter. And I don't even want to begin with Easter Services in LDS churches, that is a whole other ball of wax!! Why? I have found Easter Services in the LDS church to be quite appropriate. Edited October 18, 2014 by ERayR
ERayR Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Silhouette, I appreciate your thoughts though I do think actions can reasonably appear to be worship by others who are viewing the behavior and don't have an inside view of the intentions or heart of the person participating. Would it be possible for a reasonable person to misinterpret these actions, both on the individual or institutional level. It doesn't mean they are right. I'm merely suggesting that this is a reason why people could reasonably think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. That is really not my problem as I do not live my life to satisfy the perceptions of others.
Ahab Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Silhouette,I appreciate your thoughts though I do think actions can reasonably appear to be worship by others who are viewing the behavior and don't have an inside view of the intentions or heart of the person participating.Would it be possible for a reasonable person to misinterpret these actions, both on the individual or institutional level. It doesn't mean they are right. I'm merely suggesting that this is a reason why people could reasonably think Mormons worship Joseph Smith.I think we can reasonably put it this way:Anyone who thinks worshipping is all about emulating someone by trying to be like them, and/or about making something or someone a very important part of their life, can reasonably think people are worshipping Joseph Smith if it looks to them that those people are trying to be like him or that he is a very important part of their lives.It just depends on what people think worshipping is. 1
3DOP Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) I thought about this after I made my earlier post. I can see where an outside observer might think we worship Joseph Smith in these circumstances. Hey Silhouette. I am an outsider, and have never been to an LDS building except to enjoy a bunch of Nativity scenes a few years back at Christmas time, at the behest of our good LDS neighbors, may Mr. and Mrs. _____ rest in peace. I don't think anyone could think that Mormons confuse Joseph Smith with God, unless they already have a malicious agenda towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The same crowd of haters do the same thing with us Catholics and the Mother of Christ. We love her. We honour her. We have songs about her. Horror of horrors, we speak to her. But we deny that she is God. And if we don't worship Mary, (and we don't), then you very clearly don't worship Joseph Smith, except according to those who despise Mormonism. Edited October 18, 2014 by 3DOP 2
Calm Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 It seems to me that most people would assume that others do not worship their fellowman, other human beings. At least in this day and age where we don't say our kings are divine, etc. If I saw something that looked like worship to me, I would assume I was likely seeing it the wrong way and not that people were actually worshipping (at least in countries that do not follow certain religious faiths, but are primarily JudeoChristian or Islamic). I wonder how many people would think Joseph Smith was being worshipped from what they actually saw if they hadn't heard that idea already being promoted by others.
Silhouette Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Hey Silhouette.I am an outsider, and have never been to an LDS building except to enjoy a bunch of Nativity scenes a few years back at Christmas time, at the behest of our good LDS neighbors, may Mr. and Mrs. _____ rest in peace. I don't think anyone could think that Mormons confuse Joseph Smith with God, unless they already have a malicious agenda towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The same crowd of haters do the same thing with us Catholics and the Mother of Christ. We love her. We honour her. We have songs about her. Horror of horrors, we speak to her. But we deny that she is God. And if we don't worship Mary, (and we don't), then you very clearly don't worship Joseph Smith, except according to those who despise Mormonism.Nicely said.
Ahab Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) It seems to me that most people would assume that others do not worship their fellowman, other human beings. At least in this day and age where we don't say our kings are divine, etc. If I saw something that looked like worship to me, I would assume I was likely seeing it the wrong way and not that people were actually worshipping (at least in countries that do not follow certain religious faiths, but are primarily JudeoChristian or Islamic). I wonder how many people would think Joseph Smith was being worshipped from what they actually saw if they hadn't heard that idea already being promoted by others.Do you agree with my view of worship being about wanting to be like someone, or making someone or something an important part of a person's life? If so then what would you call it when you saw that behavior manifest itself in others, if not worship?It's not as if worship is a bad thing. It is a good thing as long as what is being worshipped is good. Edited October 18, 2014 by Ahab
Ahab Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Which, in some circles, can be said for pancakes and waffles. If you don't believe me go to any IHOP on any given Sunday.If they're going there only one day a week I don't think that counts as being a very important part of their lives, or at least they don't worship it very much. When I worship something I want it to be an every day activity, and I want it to be good for me to worship it as much as I can
Ahab Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Wife is shopping for clothes while I'm in the store with her sitting in a nice comfy chair chatting on this board through Wi Fi while occasionally telling her I like how she looks. I like this.
Calm Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Do you agree with my view of worship being about wanting to be like someone, or making someone or something an important part of a person's life? If so then what would you call it when you saw that behavior manifest itself in others, if not worship?It's not as if worship is a bad thing. It is a good thing as long as what is being worshipped is good.No, I don't agree with that definition of worship.
Tacenda Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Hey Silhouette.I am an outsider, and have never been to an LDS building except to enjoy a bunch of Nativity scenes a few years back at Christmas time, at the behest of our good LDS neighbors, may Mr. and Mrs. _____ rest in peace. I don't think anyone could think that Mormons confuse Joseph Smith with God, unless they already have a malicious agenda towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The same crowd of haters do the same thing with us Catholics and the Mother of Christ. We love her. We honour her. We have songs about her. Horror of horrors, we speak to her. But we deny that she is God. And if we don't worship Mary, (and we don't), then you very clearly don't worship Joseph Smith, except according to those who despise Mormonism.You should visit the LDS church on Easter Sunday or Sundays during the Christmas holidays. I'd like to know what you think.
Ahab Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 No, I don't agree with that definition of worship.I didn't think so. But that's still what it is.
Calm Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 I didn't think so. But that's still what it is.No, it isn't. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 At this point I'm thinking he was either very disrespectful of our Father and our Lord by putting the focus on Joseph Smith, or it wasn't as bad as you think it was, and I'm leaning toward the latter. No. He was respectful. He simply thought that celebrating Joseph Smith was more important than celebrating Christmas on this particular occassion. His attitude was similar to many here. I wouldn't even say he is a JS worshiper or anything like that, he simply thought it was a special opportunity to celebrate JS. I think his timing was wrong and could lead people to draw false conclusions.
Rain Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Don't like singing "Praise to the Man" even though I did as a young boy. The tune is good and it was enjoyable to sing, but as I got older I became progressively more uncomfortable with the words. Joseph was an instrument through whom the Church of Jesus Christ was restored - no more and no less. I'm good with the song, though hard for me to sing. I'm uncomfortable singing it is sacrament meeting. Ans so much more uncomfortable singing it as the closing song when there has been no mention of Christ in any of the talks that day.
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