Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I agree with all this in general.But my reverence and respect for Joseph Smith is much different than my reverence for George Washington.I was using the criteria laid out by Cinepro as to whether it could be said we worship Joseph Smith.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Explain how it is not what we do with Joseph Smith, instead of just saying it's not. Though we believe Joseph Smith will eventually attain exaltation -- as will all faithful individuals among the sons and daughters -- we don't render obeisance to him as the Creator and Father (in a divine sense) to us all. I'm not convinced we ever will. I don't know why this should be so hard to grasp. I think I'm actually on your side as to the question of whether Joseph deserves our respect and honor.
why me Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I think many in the church absolutely do worship Joseph Smith and to some of the same extent Thomas S. Monson and all the other prophets. I don't, and I know others who don't, but I see it all around me.I think that worship is too strong a word. I might say 'admire'. But not worship. So, I think that what you see around you is the importance that members place in the restoration and its founder. And with Monson they may see a man who has been in the church since many were just babes and the amount of work he has put into the welfare of the saints. But lds definitely do not worship any person but they do worship heavenly father and jesus through prayer and attempting to observe the commandments.
Boanerges Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Though we believe Joseph Smith will eventually attain exaltation -- as will all faithful individuals among the sons and daughters....This actually gives me great hope because if Joseph Smith can be exalted there's absolutely no reason almost all of us can't.
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Though we believe Joseph Smith will eventually attain exaltation -- as will all faithful individuals among the sons and daughters -- we don't render obeisance to him as the Creator and Father (in a divine sense) to us all. I'm not convinced we ever will.Do you mean "as" as in not to the same degree as or as in not if he is the same person as? I know he's not the same person but in many ways he was and still is the same kind of person, as well as the same kind of being, with many of the same qualities we worship/emulate in our Father and Lord, and those qualities are what makes them the kind of people I want to worship/emulate.I don't know why this should be so hard to grasp. I think I'm actually on your side as to the question of whether Joseph deserves our respect and honor.I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this either. Seems to me that everyone should want to worship/emulate the best qualities in any or all of us. It's not as if we can or should worship/emulate only one person.
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Though we believe Joseph Smith will eventually attain exaltation -- as will all faithful individuals among the sons and daughters -- we don't render obeisance to him as the Creator and Father (in a divine sense) to us all. I'm not convinced we ever will.Do you mean "as" as in not to the same degree as or as in not if he is the same person as? I know he's not the same person but in many ways he was and still is the same kind of person, as well as the same kind of being, with many of the same qualities we worship/emulate in our Father and Lord, and those qualities are what makes them the kind of people I want to worship/emulate.I don't know why this should be so hard to grasp. I think I'm actually on your side as to the question of whether Joseph deserves our respect and honor.I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this either. Seems to me that everyone should want to worship/emulate the best qualities in any or all of us. It's not as if we can or should worship/emulate only one person.
ERayR Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I think many in the church absolutely do worship Joseph Smith and to some of the same extent Thomas S. Monson and all the other prophets. I don't, and I know others who don't, but I see it all around me. From my observation I think you conflate respect with worship. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 This actually gives me great hope because if Joseph Smith can be exalted there's absolutely no reason almost all of us can't.Well, if this is an oblique way of casting aspersions upon the character of Joseph Smith, I will respond that, with whatever imperfections he possessed, Joseph eclipses in greatness even the best of his critics and detractors. 4
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 From my observation I think you conflate respect with worship.Respect is about liking or being nice to someone.Worship is about wanting to be like someone or to develop the same qualities.I hope that helps to clear up some confusion.
ksfisher Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Respect is about liking or being nice to someone.Worship is about wanting to be like someone or to develop the same qualities.I hope that helps to clear up some confusion. Worship: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship?s=t
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Worship: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship?s=tYada yada yada. Can you put that in regular everyday words and actions that I can understand. I mean, any better than I did?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Yada yada yada. Can you put that in regular everyday words and actions that I can understand. I mean, any better than I did?It was clear enough to me. 2
ksfisher Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Yada yada yada. Can you put that in regular everyday words and actions that I can understand. I mean, any better than I did? Which words are unsure of? Your definition was "Worship is about wanting to be like someone or to develop the same qualities." I disagree. There are many qualities that my mother has that I would like to develop, but I would never use the word worship to describe my admiration for her. I would like to be able to write as well as some of the members of this board. But I would never use the word worship to describe that desire. The same goes for Joseph Smith. We, as members of the church admire him and desire to posses many of the same attributes as he had, but we most definitely do not worship him. We reserve that word for the manner in which we relate to God. Edited October 14, 2014 by ksfisher 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Which words are unsure of? Your definition was "Worship is about wanting to be like someone or to develop the same qualities." I disagree. There are many qualities that my mother has that I would like to develop, but I would never use the word worship to describe my admiration for her. I would like to be able to write as well as some of the members of this board. But I would never use the word worship to describe that desire. The same goes for Joseph Smith. We, as members of the church admire him and desire to posses many of the same attributes as he had, but we most definitely do not worship him. We reverse that word for the manner in which we relate to God.Agreed, except that I think you meant to say "reserve" instead of "reverse."
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 It was clear enough to me.Maybe you could help to rephrase it with regular everyday words and actions that I can understand better than the way I already understand it too then.How does a person "pay" homage to God, exactly?And why limit worship only to God or something or someone sacred? And what is God? And what does it mean to say something or someone is sacred?We are all God, with something sacred and divine in each one of us, and I will worship the best that is in each one of us by trying to be the very best kind of God-person that I can be.
ksfisher Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Agreed, except that I think you meant to say "reserve" instead of "reverse." Edited. The words do make more sense if you put the letters in the proper order.
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Which words are unsure of?Your definition was "Worship is about wanting to be like someone or to develop the same qualities." I disagree. There are many qualities that my mother has that I would like to develop, but I would never use the word worship to describe my admiration for her. I would like to be able to write as well as some of the members of this board. But I would never use the word worship to describe that desire.The same goes for Joseph Smith. We, as members of the church admire him and desire to posses many of the same attributes as he had, but we most definitely do not worship him. We reserve that word for the manner in which we relate to God.But don't you see, I would use the word "worship" for what you are describing. I don't reserve the word "worship" only for God, and if you were to put your desires to be like others into action in some way then I would say you are worshipping those people you drsire to be like, even though you would possibly object to using that word to define it. Edited October 14, 2014 by Ahab
ksfisher Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 But don't you see, I would use the word "worship" for what you are describing. I don't reserve the word "worship" only for God, and if you were to put your desires to be like others into action in some way then I would say you are worshipping those people you drsire to be like, even though you would possibly object to using that word to define it. I would use the word worship in relation to deity. As much as I love my mother that word seems out of place applied to her. Saying I worship my mother would seem to trivialize the word in regard to my worship for God.
JLHPROF Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Worship: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship?s=t Well, let's define sacred - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sacred late 14c., past participle adjective from obsolete verb sacren "to make holy" (c.1200), from Old French sacrer "consecrate, anoint, dedicate" (12c.) or directly from Latin sacrare "to make sacred, consecrate; hold sacred; immortalize; set apart, dedicate," from sacer (genitive sacri) "sacred, dedicated, holy, accursed," from Old Latin saceres, from PIE root *sak- "to sanctify." Joseph Smith was set apart, anointed, dedicated his entire life to God, consecrated himself through his time and talents, and was certainly "holy" by the end of his life which he left as a martyr. Yep, I consider Joseph Smith a sacred personage, just as I consider many places sacred ground.And I continue to revere, honor and pay homage to him. He's not God. We don't pray to him if that is the defintion of worship. He isn't Mormonism's Virgin Mary.But he IS next in line in my path to exaltation, below the Savior and Heavenly Father. That's enough for me to treat him as much more than just another President of the Church.I think some people here need to quit worrying about how we appear to other Christian groups and the world, and acknowledge the positions that Joseph Smith actually holds.
cinepro Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) For the most part, I agree with what has been said about LDS not "worshiping" Joseph Smith. Except for this. If we just got rid of this one hymn, it would be a lot more convincing: 1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.Blessed to open the last dispensation,Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.(Chorus]Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;Death cannot conquer the hero again.2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;Honored and blest be his ever great name!Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.Ever and ever the keys he will hold.Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;Earth must atone for the blood of that man.Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872Music: Scottish folk songI understand the context and situation under which those feelings were expressed, but I think it's a little disingenuous to say that our attitude towards Joseph Smith is similar in degree to how we feel towards George Washington or our mothers. Edited October 14, 2014 by cinepro
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I would use the word worship in relation to deity. As much as I love my mother that word seems out of place applied to her. Saying I worship my mother would seem to trivialize the word in regard to my worship for God.To me it's just a word, usually used as a verb, to describe a particular action which I describe as trying to be like someone or to make something a big focus of our lives. And God, our Father, isn't the only thing or person that is worshipped by various people. Some people try to be like their mortal Mom or Dad, or some celebrity figure, or they make something like money or football or cars, etc, a big focus of their life here.
Ahab Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) For the most part, I agree with what has been said about LDS not "worshiping" Joseph Smith. Except for this. If we just got rid of this one hymn, it would be a lot more convincing:I understand the context and situation under which those feelings were expressed, but I think it's a little disingenuous to say that our attitude towards Joseph Smith is similar in degree to how we feel towards George Washington or our mothers.I think you greatly underestimate some people's attitude toward George Washington or their Mom, or Joseph Smith. Edited October 14, 2014 by Ahab
HappyJackWagon Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Worship: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship?s=t Excellent definition of worship.Tell me again though, is this not the way the church views Joseph Smith? A sacred personage- he's done more for mankind save Jesus Christ. Reverent Honor- a few years ago when Sunday fell on Dec. 23 (JS's birthday) our stake, and many surrounding stakes) gave instructions to have a Sacrament Meeting focused on Joseph Smith on DECEMBER 23rd. Forget Christmas, we'll celebrate the birth of JS.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 For the most part, I agree with what has been said about LDS not "worshiping" Joseph Smith. Except for this. If we just got rid of this one hymn, it would be a lot more convincing: I understand the context and situation under which those feelings were expressed, but I think it's a little disingenuous to say that our attitude towards Joseph Smith is similar in degree to how we feel towards George Washington or our mothers.I see no appreciable difference between praising George Washington -- in song, poetry or prose -- for the great things he accomplished and similarly praising Joseph Smith for the great things he accomplished. And no, the hymn is not going away. It's a great piece of music, a favorite among the Latter-day Saints. And it's pretty well entrenched: It was the title track for one of the more recent album releases by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Jeanne Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Martyrs do not have guns. Dedicating his life to God was squeezed in between wives. I can't find respect or worship in any of this and least of all a person to emulate. (I know..I know) I am getting kicked off the board.
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