Michael Homer's Book On Mormism And Masonry

[VideoGameJunkie]

mfbukowski, I've memorized the handshakes and sayings at the veil of the endowment ceremony and I enjoy the temple ceremony every time I go through. I encourage all endowed members to go as often as possible and renew temple covenants.

[Jeanne]

I apologize in advance if all of this has been mentioned before.  I have only a few moments a day/week to be a part of your discussions which I am sure that I really serve no value other than my never ending questions.  That being said, if I may indulge your patience, can anyone get back to me on whether the symbols of the garments are relevant to masonry?  Is there alot that is unique in JS and BY's take on masnonry that is in our endowments?  And finally, why was it that Joseph did not have his garments on in Carthrage? 

 

Please forgive me if these questions have been asked and answered a thousand times..but I work at "WallyWorld" and I might as well move in there!!

[Tacenda]

I apologize in advance if all of this has been mentioned before.  I have only a few moments a day/week to be a part of your discussions which I am sure that I really serve no value other than my never ending questions.  That being said, if I may indulge your patience, can anyone get back to me on whether the symbols of the garments are relevant to masonry?  Is there alot that is unique in JS and BY's take on masnonry that is in our endowments?  And finally, why was it that Joseph did not have his garments on in Carthrage? 

 

Please forgive me if these questions have been asked and answered a thousand times..but I work at "WallyWorld" and I might as well move in there!!

Jeanne!!!  Wally World are you serious?  I love the movie with Chevy Chase called "National Lampoon's Vacation" and they try to get to Wally's World only to find out it was closed for repairs that day or week!!

 

For your questions...yes the symbols are the same.  But I'm sure it's really what the symbol's mean that Joseph put them on the garment, they symbolize what we are to remember.  As for why JS didn't wear the garment, I've read a few different reasons, one that he changed his mind about polygamy and said it wasn't suppose to be introduced, and that it is what brought on all the harm to the church and his eventual death.  And I've heard it was because Emma didn't want him to wear them.  So there are a couple of guesses.  Maybe the people that don't believe Joseph ever lived polygamy started the one about him saying polygamy should never have been instituted, but there is not clear cut answers.  But here is probably the correct answer by Fair Mormon here.  http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Removed_garments

 

I do find it interesting that John Taylor is the only one to have worn his garments and he is the only one to have come out unscathed.  That's a plus to wear them night and day!  ETA:  Oops, not John Taylor I mean Willard Richards.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tacenda

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[mfbukowski]

I don't think Christians should aspire to be Jesus Christ. I agree that that doesn't sound right at all. But, as C.S. Lewis observed, Christianity does promise that we can be like him:

 

 

In the book of Revelation we read that Jesus Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made [anointed] us kings and priests unto God" (1:5-6). Later, the Savior declares: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me [on] my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father [on] his throne" (3:21). The temple ceremonies dramatize this progression back to the presence of the Father, as we follow in the footsteps of the "pioneer of our salvation" (Heb. 2:10, NRSV), the "great high priest who has passed through the heavens" before us (Heb. 4:14, NRSV).

John 17

 

²⁰ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

²¹ That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

²² And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

²³ I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll use the Transformers cartoon quote. "Til all are one!"

[volgadon]

Well, didn't JS study Kabbalism, maybe before introducing the temple ceremony?

 

No, there is not one shred of solid evidence showing that he did.

There isn't even good evidence for Neibaur, either.

[volgadon]

Based on Christ? From the Kabbalah?

 

 

Well, Jewish Kabbalah does have some Christian influences, but far more relevant is the Christian Kabbalah, the adaptation of Kabbalistic thought and ideas into a Christian framework. Mirandola, Reuchlin, etc.,. I would consider that as Christian as Christian teachings based on Plato.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Anyone see the episode of The SImpsons called "Homer the Great"? Homer joins a mason group called the Stonecutters. They even have special underwear.

[ERayR]

I apologize in advance if all of this has been mentioned before.  I have only a few moments a day/week to be a part of your discussions which I am sure that I really serve no value other than my never ending questions.  That being said, if I may indulge your patience, can anyone get back to me on whether the symbols of the garments are relevant to masonry?  Is there alot that is unique in JS and BY's take on masnonry that is in our endowments?  And finally, why was it that Joseph did not have his garments on in Carthrage? 

 

Please forgive me if these questions have been asked and answered a thousand times..but I work at "WallyWorld" and I might as well move in there!!

 

Whether they do or not is not relevant to the symbols as they relate to Latter-day Saints.

[mfbukowski]

Well, Jewish Kabbalah does have some Christian influences, but far more relevant is the Christian Kabbalah, the adaptation of Kabbalistic thought and ideas into a Christian framework. Mirandola, Reuchlin, etc.,. I would consider that as Christian as Christian teachings based on Plato.

OK gotcha.  So that would be Christianity deliberately grafted into Kabbalistic thought based on Plato rather than the Jewish sources.  Sounds interesting!

 

I have no problem with the model of Joseph using a Masonic symbolic vocabulary "translation" to express the presentation of the Endowment, but that is quite different I think than the idea that he just stole the whole thing from the Masons ready made and moved it from one temple to another across the street as it were.  Big difference.

 

There is the endowment message itself which is really about our individual journeys from pre-earth life through resurrection and apotheosis, and then there is the "presentation" of the endowment- the temple "script" itself, - the spoken concepts expressed in words- and then there is the symbolic vocabulary- the "language" it is expressed in, in gestures.

 

So I see the Masonic elements as analogous to the choice of language the play is translated into, not the idea in the playwright's head, not the script, nor even the production itself, but simply the difference between translating the play into German or English.  So I see the Masonic elements as not horribly important at all compared to the central message.

 

Perhaps that works or not, but at the moment is how I see it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think a lot of members that go through the endowment think that they will literally be giving the hand clasps through the veil at some point after they die and that Adam and Eve and on down the line were given those same clasps.

 

From the Church's temple-prep manual:

 

In a symbolic way, the teachings and rituals of the temple take us on an upward journey toward eternal life, ending with a symbolic entrance into the presence of God. The characters depicted, the physical setting, the clothing worn, the signs given, and all the events covered in the temple are symbolic. When they are understood, they will help each person recognize truth and grow spiritually.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[Mike Reed]

Mike Homer's book is excellent.  Although I too look forward to Joe Swick and Cheryl Bruno's book... as of yet, Mike's Homer's book is the most definitive book ever published on the subject.  You'll even find my endorsement saying so on the inside cover.

[mfbukowski]

Mike Homer's book is excellent.  Although I too look forward to Joe Swick and Cheryl Bruno's book... as of yet, Mike's Homer's book is the most definitive book ever published on the subject.  You'll even find my endorsement saying so on the inside cover.

Hey Mike good to see you! I thought of you during the oldest of the new temple movies, with the tree of knowledge.... well you know what I mean? Very surprising, I thought we were over that.

Catch my drift, or am I being too cryptic?

[mfbukowski]

From the Church's temple-prep manual:

Yes temple workers are taught it is all symbolic as well. It is so obvious to me that I forgot that tidbit, thanks

[Jeanne]

Jeanne!!!  Wally World are you serious?  I love the movie with Chevy Chase called "National Lampoon's Vacation" and they try to get to Wally's World only to find out it was closed for repairs that day or week!!

 

For your questions...yes the symbols are the same.  But I'm sure it's really what the symbol's mean that Joseph put them on the garment, they symbolize what we are to remember.  As for why JS didn't wear the garment, I've read a few different reasons, one that he changed his mind about polygamy and said it wasn't suppose to be introduced, and that it is what brought on all the harm to the church and his eventual death.  And I've heard it was because Emma didn't want him to wear them.  So there are a couple of guesses.  Maybe the people that don't believe Joseph ever lived polygamy started the one about him saying polygamy should never have been instituted, but there is not clear cut answers.  But here is probably the correct answer by Fair Mormon here.  http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Removed_garments

 

I do find it interesting that John Taylor is the only one to have worn his garments and he is the only one to have come out unscathed.  That's a plus to wear them night and day!  ETA:  Oops, not John Taylor I mean Willard Richards.

Thank you so much for your reply.  I have never heard any of these possible reasons.  And...I am so sorry that I do not really work at "WallyWorld" ..but at Walmart.      I am candy gal working in the candy aisle.  How fun..but busy!!

[Jeanne]

Whether they do or not is not relevant to the symbols as they relate to Latter-day Saints.

Okay..obviously you can tell I have not been through the Temple. 

[Tacenda]

Thank you so much for your reply. I have never heard any of these possible reasons. And...I am so sorry that I do not really work at "WallyWorld" ..but at Walmart. I am candy gal working in the candy aisle. How fun..but busy!!

Oh my, lol...there probably isn't even a Wally World!! Except the one in Walmart!!! Which is the name I'll be calling it from now on.

[volgadon]

OK gotcha.  So that would be Christianity deliberately grafted into Kabbalistic thought based on Plato rather than the Jewish sources.  Sounds interesting!

 

Well, both Jews and Christians believed that Plato was taught by Jeremiah. However, the Christian Kabbalah was very much drawn from Jewish sources. Christian Kabbalists believed that the Kabbalah revealed the true meaning of the Old Testament, allowing scripture to be read deeper, and in unity, as well as understanding Christ to be the animating and sustaining force of the universe, etc.

 

 

 

I have no problem with the model of Joseph using a Masonic symbolic vocabulary "translation" to express the presentation of the Endowment, but that is quite different I think than the idea that he just stole the whole thing from the Masons ready made and moved it from one temple to another across the street as it were.  Big difference.

 

There is the endowment message itself which is really about our individual journeys from pre-earth life through resurrection and apotheosis, and then there is the "presentation" of the endowment- the temple "script" itself, - the spoken concepts expressed in words- and then there is the symbolic vocabulary- the "language" it is expressed in, in gestures.

 

So I see the Masonic elements as analogous to the choice of language the play is translated into, not the idea in the playwright's head, not the script, nor even the production itself, but simply the difference between translating the play into German or English.  So I see the Masonic elements as not horribly important at all compared to the central message.

 

Perhaps that works or not, but at the moment is how I see it.

 

 

 

 

Stealing it ready made, of course not.

[Widow's Son]

For those interested in masonry, their Temple in Philadelphia is often open for tours. In it you will see Ben Franklin's apron. Their ceremony requires the use of a religious book (scripture) and in their collection is a first edition Book of Mormon.

I was stunned by some similarities and amused by others such as the bar (alcohol) on the other side of the veil!

Great to see if in the Philly area

[bjw]

I wanted to chime in on this topic since there are a few things that I believe are incorrect. Masonry in its current form was organized in the 1700s but its roots are much older than when it was formerly organized, and is a consolidation of other mysteries going to ancient times. A reading of Pike, Hall, Levi, or any other early masonic writer will show this, as well as the fact that masons were looking forward to a restoration. Anyone who has done the 3rd degree blue lodge ceremony knows it prophecies of a restoration of a lost word. This is clearly what the ending of the endowment is supposed to be restoring, in the Scottish Rite ritual monitor it does a comparison of various interpretations of the lost word, very similar to the ending of the veil ceremony. I won't say anymore about it to protect the sacredness, but early lds and masons knew the concept.

Masons took their teachings much more serious back then, far more than the social club it has become.

Also, Christianity and exaltation are taught in the higher degrees, though very subtly, particularly in the york rite, though hinted at in the scottish rite.

The Kabbalah forms the basis for masonry as well as other esoteric orders, along with the ancient mystery schools. The lds endowment is far more than using a social clubs format as a teaching tool, it is meant to be a long awaited restoration of the ancient mysteries. I am almost positive the early lds saw it as such, and when I notice similar things in esoteric orders I am in, it is taught as being ancient, not something made up in the 1700s.

[readstoomuch]

I have read about a fourth of the book. It is more academic than mean or faith-promoting. I have found it fair and respectful to the Church. So like every one knows or needs to know eventually-Freemasonry basically traces back to 1600 or 1700s. That never really answers the question for me as elements look like they are much older. Masonry has elements that come from the Old Testament, Kaballah, Egypt, Alchemy and Christianity. One interesting insight I got from the book was about the early Freemasons not being satisfied with the watered down right of protestant religions. Believing in God or a Divine Being is an important aspect of Masonry, but not a specific religion. The rituals of Masonry were a way to build upon the liturgy of their Christianity. That was something new that I got out of the book.

I think other elements I read were as I had heard before. There are many similarities between Masonry and the temple ceremonies, but the meaning and reason for them are much different. Eventually I will read all of the book. It is probably the best, most honest book about the topic, but quite long and deep reading. Too many books to read and not enough time.

[mfbukowski]

Well, both Jews and Christians believed that Plato was taught by Jeremiah. However, the Christian Kabbalah was very much drawn from Jewish sources. Christian Kabbalists believed that the Kabbalah revealed the true meaning of the Old Testament, allowing scripture to be read deeper, and in unity, as well as understanding Christ to be the animating and sustaining force of the universe, etc.

Stealing it ready made, of course not.

I had never heard of the Plato Jeremiah tradition before, very interesting! Got any sources for that in English?

Edit: Thinking about that, it seems to me there was about a 200 year gap between Plato and Jeremiah?

Edited August 25, 2014 by mfbukowski

[volgadon]

I had never heard of the Plato Jeremiah tradition before, very interesting! Got any sources for that in English?

Edit: Thinking about that, it seems to me there was about a 200 year gap between Plato and Jeremiah?

 

Well, there is no historical basis for the claim.

 

Augustine wrote about the connection. Because they were unable to deny the antiquity and power of some New Testament teachings, several pagans had claimed that Jesus had borrowed the teachings of Plato, so there were Christians like Ambrose who searched through old writings and histories in order to refute the claim. http://books.google.com/books?id=SVu6aScZrxIC&pg=PA43&dq=prophet+jeremiah+teacher+plato&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SqH6U_uDLY2cygSmjoCYAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=prophet%20jeremiah%20teacher%20plato&f=false

 

Here is the use to which two prominent Spanish Jewish medieval philosophers and courtiers put the Jeremiah legend. http://books.google.com/books?id=IYKBAcNXCe8C&pg=PA169&dq=prophet+jeremiah+teacher+plato&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zqL6U6zLGMuwyASczoGwBw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=prophet%20jeremiah%20teacher%20plato&f=false

 

You can see why this sort of tradition was attractive to thinkers trying to make sense of the world without discarding the contributions of those outside their faiths.

[Coreyb]

Well, didn't JS study Kabbalism, maybe before introducing the temple ceremony?

I find it hard to believe Neibaur would have introduced Kabbalism to Joseph Smith. All my Jewish friends say that men must be at least forty years old and be very well versed in the Talmud and Torah before they are allowed to be instructed in the Kabbalah, which is like a whole new ocean of thought. Any Kabbalistic knowledge Joseph had must have come from an independent study (which I have not read any evidence of yet, maybe somebody else knows about it?). I read about half of the Zohar, and was so lost (though it was interesting) without a teacher that I concluded if Joseph got anything profound out of the jewish mystics on his own he must have been a genius, or a prophet