Michael Homer's Book On Mormism And Masonry

[ERayR]

Why are temple ceremonies and masonry so similar? Do the masons have some truth?

 

Both are highly symbolic and just because they are similar does not mean the symbolism means the same to both groups.

[mfbukowski]

We're not just talking about a few symbols the two ceremonies share. There are entire sections of the ceremony with nearly identical phraseology and there used to be even more before they were removed from the temple ceremony.

I know. That was not the question, but so what?

Do you think the endowment is a magic incantation or a tool to help us receive revelation? Do you really think it is a series of magic spells?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well we make important covenants in the temple, that I doubt were part of the Mason ceremony.

[mfbukowski]

All the early leadership of the church were Masons. Why didn't they have a problem with the similarities?

Why did they line up night and day in Nauvoo to be endowed if they thought it was the same as what they already knew?

[VideoGameJunkie]

What covenants and oaths do masons make?

[mfbukowski]

Masonry does not teach Christian apotheosis, nor that we can become saviors, nor does it teach the LDS plan of salvation, nor does it teach our covenants.

Symbols are like letters of the alphabet. We use 26 letters to write every word ever written in English.

By that logic, star wars is the same as Shakespeare because it uses the same 26 symbols.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Very fascinating points!

[mfbukowski]

Very fascinating points!

The meaning and interpretation of the same symbols can vary widely. The swastika is an ancient sun symbol found in many cultures.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika Edited August 21, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

What covenants and oaths do masons make?

My understanding is they are not to be shared with those outside their community. So we should respect their privacy just as we want ours to be respected. If you are still curious, I would fina current mason, perhaps through FM or one who posts here (there are a few), and ask him to share what he is allowed to.

[mfbukowski]

We're not just talking about a few symbols the two ceremonies share. There are entire sections of the ceremony with nearly identical phraseology and there used to be even more before they were removed from the temple ceremony.

I am very familiar with these issues, and have already answered them.

[Brian 2.0]

My point was that regarding the sections/clasps/phrases that the endowment uses that are VERY similar to the Masonic ritual...

I used to hear growing up that the Masons took those things from Solomon's temple and corrupted them for their own use, and JS restored the true meaning of the ritual in the endowment.

I don't hear that argument much anymore since it doesn't have much evidence to support it. Instead the approach I hear now is that JS used elements of the Masonic ritual as a tool to present new revealed truths given to him.

[mfbukowski]

My point was that regarding the sections/clasps/phrases that the endowment uses that are VERY similar to the Masonic ritual...

I used to hear growing up that the Masons took those things from Solomon's temple and corrupted them for their own use, and JS restored the true meaning of the ritual in the endowment.

I don't hear that argument much anymore since it doesn't have much evidence to support it. Instead the approach I hear now is that JS used elements of the Masonic ritual as a tool to present new revealed truths given to him.

If the endowment can be changed at the will of the prophets, what difference does it matter what words or symbols are used?

Do we really think that the prophets don't know that the words are arbitrary? Or do they think they know better than God what the symbols should be?

Edited August 21, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

How did Joseph make the initiatories parallel the sacraments of the Coptic Orthodox church?http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

[mfbukowski]

I was a member when about a third of the endowment disappeared, and the initiatories were radically altered.

I suppose the 15 didn't think anyone would notice since we all sleep through them anyway.

Edited August 21, 2014 by mfbukowski

[bcuzbcuz]

As I remember, masonry has its roots in Solomon's temple rites.

And how would they know these rites?

[Brian 2.0]

If the endowment can be changed at the will of the prophets, what difference does it matter what words or symbols are used?

Do we really think that the prophets don't know that the words are arbitrary? Or do they think they know better than God what the symbols should be?

I think a lot of members that go through the endowment think that they will literally be giving the hand clasps through the veil at some point after they die and that Adam and Eve and on down the line were given those same clasps.

That's what they get from the BY quote at least about passing by the angels that stand as sentinels.

[mfbukowski]

I think a lot of members that go through the endowment think that they will literally be giving the hand clasps through the veil at some point after they die and that Adam and Eve and on down the line were given those same clasps.

That's what they get from the BY quote at least about passing by the angels that stand as sentinels.

Let's put it this way- the way I understand B.Y.'s statement is that we will be barred from the highest level if we do not know what is necessary to attain that level of glory, so that knowledge is required to "pass the sentinels".

 

What that knowledge IS, is a mature understanding and knowledge of the covenants of the Plan of Salvation as symbolized by each gesture etc contained in the endowment.

 

Every single gesture of the endowment symbolizes various stages of the plan of redemption that we take upon ourselves at different points through our journey of life. The gestures are a symbolic language which is non-verbal, but a language nevertheless.  The key "words" are not words at all really but ideas represented by the symbolic gesture.

 

If you are just at the level of thinking that the gestures have some importance, I think you are off track.  You could teach an ape the gestures- would that mean the ape would get into the celestial kingdom?

 

What is sacred and not to be put into words can only be conveyed without words, and is, in the temple.  I would encourage everyone to actually think what each gesture means and why it is performed at each stage of the endowment.

 

The gestures themselves have no importance- but the ideas they convey are the true essence of the gospel.  Think of the circle and square, right angle, and straight line and what we are instructed about them, and find those symbols in the gestures and see how they relate to what you are saying in the verbal messages and covenants, then relate all that to the big picture.

 

I am personally convinced there are at least a couple of lifetimes of symbols to be deciphered there.  But please see beyond what you could teach an ape to do.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I had the thought process that we have to memorize the sayings and hand gestures and handshakes at the veil to get into the Celestial Kingdom. That's what I thought. And I take the covenants that we make during an endowment session very seriously because I've broken those temple covenants before and felt very guilty and sorrowful and had to confess to my Bishop.

[volgadon]

Masonry does not teach Christian apotheosis,

 

Not quite true, interestingly enough. This is perhaps the best insight that I learned from talking with Swick.  I won't steal his thunder, but theosis is there, and it is kind of a big deal. It also has roots in Kabbalistic thought. When you see it, you'll get it for sure.

[mfbukowski]

Not comfortable with what I wrote. More later

Edited August 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Not quite true, interestingly enough. This is perhaps the best insight that I learned from talking with Swick.  I won't steal his thunder, but theosis is there, and it is kind of a big deal. It also has roots in Kabbalistic thought. When you see it, you'll get it for sure.

Based on Christ? From the Kabbalah?

[mfbukowski]

I had the thought process that we have to memorize the sayings and hand gestures and handshakes at the veil to get into the Celestial Kingdom. That's what I thought. And I take the covenants that we make during an endowment session very seriously because I've broken those temple covenants before and felt very guilty and sorrowful and had to confess to my Bishop.

I have been thinking about this, and I think maybe I said some things that might have put you on the wrong track, and it has really bothered me that perhaps anyone might take it that way.

 

I never said you did not need to memorize the veil ceremony- in fact I think it is absolutely CRUCIAL to your understanding of the endowment to do so. 

 

All I am saying is that the first step- memorization- is the key to further light and knowledge we get directly from God about these matters.  Let me give you an example.

 

We are all taught that we are to be "Christlike".  Everyone knows that.  Everyone knows from baptism that we take upon ourselves the "name of Christ"

 

But from the endowment, if we are listening and thinking about the symbols, we can learn that we need to BE "Christs".  We become saviors on Mt.

Zion.  We understand the crucifixion in a new way in BECOMING Christ himself, and in effect feeling the nails in our hands, IF we move beyond a literal understanding of the gestures made.

 

Suppose someone was really impressed by this understanding which he never had before.  Feeling that in a physical way, suddenly impressed upon him not just the idea of "taking on the name of Christ" as we do in baptism, but the need for him to truly behave in every situation the way Christ would because he was now spiritually Christ Himself!  The inner consciousness of Christ was in him to such a degree that he strove to FEEL that level of self- sacrifice in everything he did, because now he felt the print of the nails in his hands, and he felt something of what Christ's death and resurrection was to Christ himself!

 

He wanted to know more about what Christ did for us, to feel that level of commitment where every fiber of his being was as dedicated to obedience and sacrifice as Christ himself does.

 

Because of the experience of the endowment, and because he memorized all the symbols to the point of being able to analyze them in his head in quiet moments, suddenly he had a life changing experience understanding the importance of obedience and sacrifice and how those are part of One Whole Truth and the "right course" upon which we should chart our life's journey.

 

THAT is the kind of experience I am talking about.

 

If he had never memorized it all, he would have never seen the relationships of the parts to the whole circle of truth- the Whole truth circumscribed by the plan of salvation.  It would not have been personal.  Christ would have been someone else- not part of himself.

 

So all I am saying is yes of course we need to memorize it all.  I have become a temple worker so that I could try to memorize ALL of the endowment, every word of every ceremony, so that in my quiet moments of pondering and praying, I can juggle those magnificent ideas in my mind, and lay one over the other, to compare and contrast how baptism fits with the initiatories, how one amplifies the other, how annointings relate to sealings and how the symbols all amplify each other.  How do the symbols of the compass and square relate to the hand gestures?  Are we making those symbols with our hands?  If so, why would we do so?  What is the meaning of this symbolic gesture at this point in the endowment and why are we making that symbol here?

 

THOSE are the type of questions. IN MY OPINION, we need to take to the Lord seeking further light and knowledge.

 

NEVER for one second did I mean to imply that we "didn't need to memorize" ANYTHING, quite the contrary,

 

There is only way to get all of this "into your head" and that is to memorize it.  THAT is the starting place.  You can't see the relationships of the symbols if the symbols are not "in your head"

 

You will never have the life changing experience in our example if you have never memorized the various gestures of the endowment, and the order in which they are presented,  this realization could never happen.

 

There is enough in the endowment to study for at least two or three lifetimes, I am convinced!

Edited August 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

I think that's your take, mfbukowski. I hope you explain it's not everyone's take on the endowment. I've never heard that it's to be like that. To live life thinking we need to be Christ? That feels off to me. I guess I"ve misunderstood it all this time. I know that some think Masons work their selves up a ladder to become a God of their own world. And think that's Satanic. Probably why they got some backlash.

[Tacenda]

Not quite true, interestingly enough. This is perhaps the best insight that I learned from talking with Swick. I won't steal his thunder, but theosis is there, and it is kind of a big deal. It also has roots in Kabbalistic thought. When you see it, you'll get it for sure.

Well, didn't JS study Kabbalism, maybe before introducing the temple ceremony?

[mfbukowski]

I think that's your take, mfbukowski. I hope you explain it's not everyone's take on the endowment. I've never heard that it's to be like that. To live life thinking we need to be Christ? That feels off to me. I guess I"ve misunderstood it all this time. I know that some think Masons work their selves up a ladder to become a God of their own world. And think that's Satanic. Probably why they got some backlash.

Latter-day Saint beliefs would have sounded more familiar to the earliest generations of Christians than they do to many modern Christians. Many church fathers (influential theologians and teachers in early Christianity) spoke approvingly of the idea that humans can become divine. One modern scholar refers to the “ubiquity of the doctrine of deification”—the teaching that humans could become God—in the first centuries after Christ’s death.¹¹ The church father Irenaeus, who died about A.D. 202, asserted that Jesus Christ “did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself.”¹² Clement of Alexandria (ca. A.D. 150–215) wrote that “the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.”¹³ Basil the Great (A.D. 330–379) also celebrated this prospect—not just “being made like to God,” but “highest of all, the being made God.”¹⁴

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=exaltation

 

If you don't believe that, you might as well be Presbyterian.

 

 

Conclusion

All human beings are children of loving heavenly parents and possess seeds of divinity within them. In His infinite love, God invites His children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of God, through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.⁵⁶ The doctrine of humans’ eternal potential to become like their Heavenly Father is central to the gospel of Jesus Christ and inspires love, hope, and gratitude in the hearts of faithful Latter-day Saints.

 

Edited August 22, 2014 by mfbukowski