To Whom Little Is Given, Much Is Criticized

[stemelbow]

I think that being retrospectively “right” is not about having more divine light and knowledge than the Lord’s anointed. It is only about a conclusion matching up with the eventual revelation for the Church ahead of time. This could happen by chance as much as by genius, and inspired by any number of motives and sources. One’s conclusion can be delivered in any number of ways, both edifying and destructive to the spirit in which we are to care for each other.

 

Being truly right is about receiving (or sustaining) the proper revelation within the proper scope and application at the proper time and through the proper keys.

 

For example, in the decades prior to 1978, correspondence, conversations, insights and opinions were solicited by the brethren. Not all of these discussions were pleasant, I think because all involved were operating by their own genius and the light of their own understanding—part of the necessary step of studying it out in the mind in preparation to receive legitimate revelation. But in good faith.

 

So it isn’t really a problem for the brethren to use their personal wherewithal to look into issues. It isn’t a problem for them to ask the experts in the “storehouse.” It isn’t a problem for an expert (or anyone) to come up with a position or a conclusion on what to do. The problem is in asserting that one is (or had been) “right” all along when the all the criteria for righteousness were not in fact met.

What are all the criteria for righteousness?

[ERayR]

Sounds lucky to me.

 

you're telling me. I don't doubt that much of the problem is within me. I try to fight it out of me, but it doesn't disappear. It might be that I'm destined to falling in the clutches of satan. But my feelings and thoughts stay with me, so I hope to figure out some resolved somehow. Just haven't been able to get over myself, I guess.

 

You must understand that most of us believe that a worship service classroom setting is not the place to raise doubts about the Church and gospel.  Really a forum such as this is a good place to do that if you don't approach it in an argumentative way.  If you take time to think about and digest the responses instead a of combative, defensive demeanor you can have some informative critique into the flaws of your position.   

[ERayR]

What are all the criteria for righteousness?

 

As I look through the Bible and Book of Mormon it had a lot to do with listening to the Prophets and following counsel.

[stemelbow]

You must understand that most of us believe that a worship service classroom setting is not the place to raise doubts about the Church and gospel.  Really a forum such as this is a good place to do that if you don't approach it in an argumentative way.  If you take time to think about and digest the responses instead a of combative, defensive demeanor you can have some informative critique into the flaws of your position.

I agree. I'm not into the idea of hashing out disagreements and difficult issues in church per se.

[USU78]

I'm all about kind and uplifting. It seems to me for people who express ideas that are counter to the norm the normal tend to try and paint the different as a sinner of the highest order instead of addressing the idea or concern.

 

I get the time constraints. I get the desire to simply rather than complicate. But I am in agreement with others who have called the materials deplorable. But there is I think a concerted effort to address the misinformation that gets tossed around.

 

If it were just about condensing I'd be all for it.

 

I can't recall where I heard it or read it. But I'll just resort back to what I can reference. It was Terryl Givens who suggested the materials were deplorable.

 

It wouldn't be.

 

my difficulty rests in the attitude of my fellow saints and how they talk about and treat others, for the most part. So when you criticize me for sounding arrogant and superior I feel to criticize many whom I go to Church with for the same thing.

 

I'm having trouble processing this notion of judging the motives of others uncharitably while at the same time being upset that your motives are allegedly being uncharitably judged.

[The Nehor]

Unless it's already been appealed to God and God in turn wants you to challenge and tell others. If that be the case, if members get so upset that you dare challenge assumptions, then perhaps it's God's desire that this challenger get's ex'd. In so doing perhaps it will sew seeds of change down the line. Perhaps that's what has happened in the past. And yet we sit here think it's evil to challenge, half the time, cheering on or at least supporting of the Church taking people down. Cute stuff in a way, I guess, but perhaps not exactly the way God would like to see things.

 

If you are convinced that God has a point so important for you to fight for that both He and you are willing to have you lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost, all your gospel covenants, and with them your shot at exaltation then go for it but you better be pretty sure God is with you because that is quite a price to pay.

 

I don't think that is what happened in the past.

[mormonnewb]

If you are convinced that God has a point so important for you to fight for that both He and you are willing to have you lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost, all your gospel covenants, and with them your shot at exaltation then go for it but you better be pretty sure God is with you because that is quite a price to pay.

 

I don't think that is what happened in the past.

 

So HF has put my salvation in the hands of my SP?

 

I can roll with the idea that ANY organization can control its membership.  I can even roll with the idea that the Bible supports disfellowship (or maybe even excommunication).  But I just don't see how we make the leap that HF cares so little about our salvation that He would allow our relationship with Him to be severed by a bishop or stake president.

 

I certainly can't fathom that, say, Helmuth Hubuner would have been denied his rightful blessings in heaven had the Church not corrected His excommunication.  Because otherwise, Christ's sacrifice and even the Plan of Salvation are subordinate to the arbitrary decisions of local leaders.

 

I don't know about you, but in my house, NONE of my children have the right to sever my relationship with one of their siblings.  Sure, they could get together and decide that they aren't going to invite their little brother to any more family outings.  But that disfellowship does not change MY relationship with that child or what I will live him in my will.  Where does it say that HF will check the records of the Church before making admissions into the CK?

[JLHPROF]

So HF has put my salvation in the hands of my SP?

 

I can roll with the idea that ANY organization can control its membership.  I can even roll with the idea that the Bible supports disfellowship (or maybe even excommunication).  But I just don't see how we make the leap that HF cares so little about our salvation that He would allow our relationship with Him to be severed by a bishop or stake president.

 

I certainly can't fathom that, say, Helmuth Hubuner would have been denied his rightful blessings in heaven had the Church not corrected His excommunication.  Because otherwise, Christ's sacrifice and even the Plan of Salvation are subordinate to the arbitrary decisions of local leaders.

 

I don't know about you, but in my house, NONE of my children have the right to sever my relationship with one of their siblings.  Sure, they could get together and decide that they aren't going to invite their little brother to any more family outings.  But that disfellowship does not change MY relationship with that child or what I will live him in my will.  Where does it say that HF will check the records of the Church before making admissions into the CK?

 

Finally, something I mostly agree with -

 

As far as Heavenly Father checking the records of the church - depends how you define church...

 

 D&C 85:8-11

While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.

These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.

And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;

 

[The Nehor]

So HF has put my salvation in the hands of my SP?

 

No, he put it in the hands of the Savior and you. The SP stands in for him in some limited ways in mortality including deciding whether to release you from your covenants.

 

I can roll with the idea that ANY organization can control its membership.  I can even roll with the idea that the Bible supports disfellowship (or maybe even excommunication).  But I just don't see how we make the leap that HF cares so little about our salvation that He would allow our relationship with Him to be severed by a bishop or stake president.

 

I certainly can't fathom that, say, Helmuth Hubuner would have been denied his rightful blessings in heaven had the Church not corrected His excommunication.  Because otherwise, Christ's sacrifice and even the Plan of Salvation are subordinate to the arbitrary decisions of local leaders.

 

I don't know about you, but in my house, NONE of my children have the right to sever my relationship with one of their siblings.  Sure, they could get together and decide that they aren't going to invite their little brother to any more family outings.  But that disfellowship does not change MY relationship with that child or what I will live him in my will.  Where does it say that HF will check the records of the Church before making admissions into the CK?

 

If excommunication meant God was disowning you this would make more sense but I have not read anything suggesting that excommunication makes you stop being a child of God.

 

As to God checking the Church rolls....YES! There is a lot of talk in the scriptures about what is sealed on earth being sealed in heaven and being judged by the books written on earth and in heaven. Jesus gave the qualifier that one MUST be baptized by the power of the Priesthood to be saved and that Priesthood has the power to both seal and loose which includes the authority to remove a baptism. So yes, God will see if you have made and kept covenants before you get into the Celestial Kingdom.

 

It seems counterintuitive. It is kind of scary how much power God gives to His servants but He said what He said.

 

So what would happen with someone excommunicated unjustly? The Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Priesthood and your covenants are still gone. You can still experience the Holy Ghost as God allows all to and you may be blessed for doing the best you can in your circumstances but the excommunication is still a reality. If you die before it can be remedied it could be posthumously fixed of course but yeah, excommunication is real and not something God overrules. He can correct errors after the fact but the mistake is real. Much like the atonement I suppose.

 

Hubener's excommunication was invalid in any case. Priesthood ordinances and activities are subject to following the rules and must be performed according to the instructions the Lord and his representatives have given. The Bishop in this case did not follow the rules.

[Kenngo1969]

... I am not AT ALL bothered by Internet trolls. I recently had one come to my YouTube channel and call me a "smart-mouthed n-----." ... 

 

Huh. And you think I'm a racist?!

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Some of the Saviour's words to the Twelve Apostles:

 

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19).

 

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

 

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

 

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:15-18).

 

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).

 

I understand the historical reasons behind the Protestant aversion to God giving authority and even judgement to men, but it's simply not scriptural.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[mormonnewb]

Some of the Saviour's words to the Twelve Apostles:

 

 

 

 

I understand the historical reasons behind the Protestant aversion to God giving authority and even judgement to men, but it's simply not scriptural.

 

Hmmm.  I don't like it one bit, but it's hard to argue with you and Nehor on this point as scripture seems rather clearly on your side.   One point for Team Church!

[CV75]

What are all the criteria for righteousness?

I listed them, as far as being truly right as opposed to retrospectively "right" about what the Lord gives to the Church:

 

"Being truly right is about receiving (or sustaining) the proper revelation within the proper scope and application at the proper time and through the proper keys."

[why me]

So HF has put my salvation in the hands of my SP?

I hope not. The SP can get it wrong, especially about personal matters. However, they can also get it right. The best thing to do is to pray sincerly about the advice given and take it from there.

[The Nehor]

Hmmm.  I don't like it one bit, but it's hard to argue with you and Nehor on this point as scripture seems rather clearly on your side.   One point for Team Church!

 

To be fair I don't particularly like it either.

[ERayR]

So HF has put my salvation in the hands of my SP?

 

I can roll with the idea that ANY organization can control its membership.  I can even roll with the idea that the Bible supports disfellowship (or maybe even excommunication).  But I just don't see how we make the leap that HF cares so little about our salvation that He would allow our relationship with Him to be severed by a bishop or stake president.

 

I certainly can't fathom that, say, Helmuth Hubuner would have been denied his rightful blessings in heaven had the Church not corrected His excommunication.  Because otherwise, Christ's sacrifice and even the Plan of Salvation are subordinate to the arbitrary decisions of local leaders.

 

I don't know about you, but in my house, NONE of my children have the right to sever my relationship with one of their siblings.  Sure, they could get together and decide that they aren't going to invite their little brother to any more family outings.  But that disfellowship does not change MY relationship with that child or what I will live him in my will.  Where does it say that HF will check the records of the Church before making admissions into the CK?

 

Nope your salvation is in your own hands.  It is you who makes the choices as to how far you carry your behavior.  A stake president of bishop only has what you give them to work with.

Edited July 12, 2014 by ERayR

[Ahab]

To be fair I don't particularly like it either.

What's not to like? It only counts when they do what God would do in their stewardship and when/if they do something wrong their mistake is going to be corrected.

There isn't any way to correct a system that is already perfect. All we need is a way to learn what is right and how to stop making mistakes while somebody who is perfect corrects the mistakes.

[mormonnewb]

What's not to like? It only counts when they do what God would do in their stewardship and when/if they do something wrong their mistake is going to be corrected.

There isn't any way to correct a system that is already perfect. All we need is a way to learn what is right and how to stop making mistakes while somebody who is perfect corrects the mistakes.

 

I still haven't bought into the idea that this Church is "perfect."  Neither has Pres Uchtdorf, so I feel that I'm in decent company here.

 

PEOPLE make mistakes.  The idea that God's people can't make mistakes either negates agency or God Himself (perfect people on the earth would be gods in and of themselves).

[ERayR]

I still haven't bought into the idea that this Church is "perfect."  Neither has Pres Uchtdorf, so I feel that I'm in decent company here.

 

PEOPLE make mistakes.  The idea that God's people can't make mistakes either negates agency or God Himself (perfect people on the earth would be gods in and of themselves).

 

Nobody is arguing that.  The discussion is whose prerogative it is to to call the leaders to repentance.

[stemelbow]

If you are convinced that God has a point so important for you to fight for that both He and you are willing to have you lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost, all your gospel covenants, and with them your shot at exaltation then go for it but you better be pretty sure God is with you because that is quite a price to pay.

 

I don't think that is what happened in the past.

God is the decider of losing the Gift of the Holy Ghost not others.

[The Nehor]

God is the decider of losing the Gift of the Holy Ghost not others.

God through the scriptures disagrees. Of course The Holy Ghost can visit who He wills as He always does but the Gift with the right to constant companionship is determined by the Priesthood and it's ordinances.

[VideoGameJunkie]

The church is a perfect church, but the people who run it are not perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

[ERayR]

The church is a perfect church, but the people who run it are not perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

What are you talking about?