Is There Room For Jethro In The Lds Church?

[smac97]

I guess what I'm wondering is why it matters?

A good question. Why aren't you asking if of Kate Kelly? She is the one who defied the Church, trespassed on Church property, onto sacred ground, and protested there during a sacred convocation (sheesh - even the most rabid anti-mormon protesters are decent enough to respect the law and the Church's property rights and confine their protests to public property).

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

I am glad you contributed on this. Although I have heard of other similar situations, I have never written to an apostle or General Authority.  I appreciate it hearing about this types of personal responses to individuals.  

 

I am one of those who think they are too insulated from the world at large and these experiences give me hope that they may be experiencing more than I have given them credit.

I wonder how you can think the Brethren are "insulated." We have general authorities from all over the world. We have general authorities living and traveling all over the world. Any other group of individuals who had as many travel miles and experience in visiting other places would be lauded as well-traveled, erudite, and aware of the world. But since they are Mormons, they are presumptively ignernt?

I have a brother who works for the Church and lives in Samoa. He travels throughout the South Pacific constantly. He reports directly to the Presiding Bishopric about the welfare of the Saints. And when I say "welfare" I don't mean home teaching statistics. He reports to them about water supplies, community gardening, hygeine lessons, sewage disposal situations, cholera outbreaks, food shortages, educational difficulties, and on and on and on. My brother often sends us the reports he is submitting to the Presiding Bishopric, so I know first hand the kind of information they are getting. They are not insulated.

My sister's father-in-law is a general authority and lives in the Dominican Republic. He shares all sorts of things which he is working on with his son (my brother in law). The topics of discussion are both spiritual (church attendance of the Saints in the DR, FHE, etc.) and temporal (education, hygiene, nutrition, clean water, etc.). Again, the Brethren are not insulated.

I am presenting these as some of my personal experiences behind my assessment of the Brethren and their familiarity with the real world. They are familiar with it.

What is going on here? Why are the Brethren, who are perhaps some of the most well-traveled people in the world, and who meet with regional and local leaders and individual church members constantly, being deemed as "insulated?" Where did this idea come from?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was just reading the story of Jethro's visit to Moses in the wilderness.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/18?lang=eng

 

I couldn't help but to wonder if Jethro could have made it as a Mormon.  As you remember, Jethro was Moses' father-in-law.  After just ONE DAY amongst the Israelites, Jethro pulled Moses aside and said:

 

"What you are doing is not good.  You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out.  The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone.  Listen now to me and I will give you some advice ... select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens."

 

This was obviously sage advice and somewhat mirrors how things are run in our church today, as priesthood functions are delegated to general authorities, area authorities, district leaders, stake presidents, bishops, etc.  Yet, who in our current church could feel free to speak so frankly to the Prophet?

 

When Sister Kelly from OW had the "nerve" to ask that the Apostles pray for a revelation about extending the priesthood to women ("What you are doing is not good.  The work is too heavy for you men ..."), many members were up in arms.  They cried in one loud voice, "How dareth thou suggesth that the Prophet asketh the Lordeth for revelation?  He has not appointed thee to the task of leading His Church."  In fact, that is the dominate cry on this board whenever anyone has the "temerity" to suggest even the slightest change to how we do things.

 

Just last week, we went round and round because someone had the "unmitigated gall" to suggest that we not have grown men alone in the rooms talking about sex with children.  Immediately, the "faithful" saints were up in arms.  "Heretic!"  "Heathen!"  "Ark steadier!"

 

So perhaps someone can explain to me why Jethro, the Priest of Midian, an outsider, could come out to the wilderness and start barking orders to God's Prophet and yet, long-time members of this Church are flirting with outer darkness if they so much as SUGGEST that the Prophets pray for guidance to add a half-note to a verse in a hymn.  "Who put you in charge of the Lord's meter?"

 

Seriously, what am I missing?  What has changed in this dispensation that has caused the Lord to rest all of his inspiration in 15 men?  Is there not a place in Zion for a Jethro or at least, an Ellie May? (Be still my heart)

The great thing about this story is Moses was humble enough to receive counsel. Btw, God has always done so...Christ committed "all" judgement of the Israelites to the twelve.

[sethpayne]

If when doesn't matter, I don't see much reason for where mattering either.

The OW group was protesting to be allowed to watch it at a particular where and when, but while they couldn't have access to the where they did have full access to the when, yet did not take advantage of it (as reported by Smac)

 

 

Ah.  I see where you are coming from.  Makes sense.

[Calm]

Ah. I see where you are coming from. Makes sense.

Good. I like to be seen as making sense, even if people don't agree with my conclusion.

My conclusion being it wasn't the desire for the experience that was the driving force for the OW group, but rather what they saw it symbolically meaning...being able to claim priesthood eligibility (or as they labeled it being seen as "prospective elders"). And while I don't judge them harshly for desiring the Priesthood itself (if Abraham can be seen as noble for doing so and boys are told it is the greatest gift God gives, why wouldn't it or something equivalent be desired is my view), it hits me the wrong way that they disrupt an event that others value for the experience itself and even possibly taint it in others' eyes in their pursuit.

I feel the same way about the first of their discussions, especially the Patriarchal Bingo which list all negative experiences and gives nothing positive. If any nonmember were to read that, lacking personal experience to provide positive experiences with the Priesthood and Church, I don't see how they could end up thinking the Church was anything but just plain wrong and something to be avoided at all cost. Given it is the most visible aspect of the discussion in my view, I don't see how anything that follows, including however someone personalises it for their group, could counterbalance that level of negativity.

Edited May 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

I wonder how you can think the Brethren are "insulated." We have general authorities from all over the world. We have general authorities living and traveling all over the world. Any other group of individuals who had as many travel miles and experience in visiting other places would be lauded as well-traveled, erudite, and aware of the world. But since they are Mormons, they are presumptively ignernt?

I have a brother who works for the Church and lives in Samoa. He travels throughout the South Pacific constantly. He reports directly to the Presiding Bishopric about the welfare of the Saints. And when I say "welfare" I don't mean home teaching statistics. He reports to them about water supplies, community gardening, hygeine lessons, sewage disposal situations, cholera outbreaks, food shortages, educational difficulties, and on and on and on. My brother often sends us the reports he is submitting to the Presiding Bishopric, so I know first hand the kind of information they are getting. They are not insulated.

My sister's father-in-law is a general authority and lives in the Dominican Republic. He shares all sorts of things which he is working on with his son (my brother in law). The topics of discussion are both spiritual (church attendance of the Saints in the DR, FHE, etc.) and temporal (education, hygiene, nutrition, clean water, etc.). Again, the Brethren are not insulated.

I am presenting these as some of my personal experiences behind my assessment of the Brethren and their familiarity with the real world. They are familiar with it.

What is going on here? Why are the Brethren, who are perhaps some of the most well-traveled people in the world, and who meet with regional and local leaders and individual church members constantly, being deemed as "insulated?" Where did this idea come from?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Smac,

 

The reasons I think the Brethren are insulated is a deduction from many experiences I have had.  For example, several years ago Elder Eyring was coming to speak at our Stake Conference in Bellevue. I was asked to assist with the security that was required.  We met two or three times prior to his arrival to review security plans and make assignments.  One of the things that was discussed and implemented was security for Elder Eyring at the close of conference. A line of brothers were to stand before the stand to ensure a separation from the apostle and the people. If the apostle chose to step down into the congregation it was his choice, but if not he would leave through the door at the back right of the stand and wait in the HC room.  

 

Once the majority of the members had left and we had set up in the hallway leading down to the RS room where lunch would be served, Elder Eyring and the other couples traveling with him would proceed down the hallway to lunch. He stopped, shook my hand, and spoke briefly with me.  He is a wonderful man whom I respect deeply.

 

What I came away with is that it was very stale and I made the assumption that this was the way they were treated everywhere they went.  I did not cotton much to the separation between members and apostle. I grew up in the mission field and seldom had the opportunity to see, in person, an apostle.  I remembered traveling seven hours to see an apostle as a teenager when I heard one was coming to our region.  

 

My friend, I will grant that this is a rather narrow experience to make assumptions; I also realize what assumptions do to you and me.  Further, I admit that I am a grouchy old man that likes to complain too often and too much.  It may be that the Brethren are very well connected and understand a great deal the lives of the saints.  I am heartened to find that the apostles are being called from foreign lands and/or anywhere but Utah.  

 

I get that the apostles have schedules and if they did walk into the congregation they would be shaking hands for hours; I get that and I still like the idea of it.  We have all heard of when a prophet or an apostle will stop and single someone out of a crowd and make a special impression on them.  Little girls and boys and big girls and boys still need those experiences.  

[readstoomuch]

Analogy originally as stated does not work as a comparison. If we read Elder Oaks talk and also engage women and their opinion in their present capacity much of the problem resolves. That is unless you really don't /won't accept anything less than ordaining women. Which seems to be the case.

[Kenngo1969]

... But as always, Cal, I'm always interested in your perspective.

Always always?  Well, I'll see your measly pair, and raise you a three-of-a-kind! I'm always, always, always interested in her perspective: always, unceasingly, incessantly, and without ceasing!  So there!

 

Sorry;  Couldn't resist!  Carry on!

 

P.S.: Do you feel sufficiently brown-nosed to, Cal?

Edited May 17, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

I forgot all about Miriam, Korah and other Levites.  Well, that certainly adds a different perspective, doesn't it?

 

By the way, did OW get an answer to their request -- that the Brethren earnest beseech the Lord in prayer?  I know that the Brethren made clear in April that women will not be ordained, but did they make clear that they had actually sought confirmation from HF and were told "No"?  It seemed to me that the answer they gave was, "We're not even entertaining your request because we're quite sure what the Lord's will is on this one."

 

In short, OW's request was not answered.  Now, in all practicality, I can't imagine that these same men would get a different answer if they asked, but until they do, it doesn't seem unreasonable for OW to keep making its request.  PERHAPS, if the Brethren had been constantly asking on the race question from 1969 to 1978, they may have gotten OD2 a little sooner (or maybe not).

It was answered because women were not ordained, And as far as the race question, they were actively discussing it for many years. And eventually this propelled them to ask in prayer. If they did ask and received a no answer do you really believe that OW would have gone away?

[why me]

A good question. Why aren't you asking if of Kate Kelly? She is the one who defied the Church, trespassed on Church property, onto sacred ground, and protested there during a sacred convocation (sheesh - even the most rabid anti-mormon protesters are decent enough to respect the law and the Church's property rights and confine their protests to public property).

Thanks,

-Smac

It becomes a question of ego. I think that her ego is quite large and she seems to love the publicity. And she uses her active status to the max. 

[Calm]

Always always?  Well, I'll see your measly pair, and raise you a three-of-a-kind! I'm always, always, always interested in her perspective: always, unceasingly, incessantly, and without ceasing!  So there!

 

Sorry;  Couldn't resist!  Carry on!

 

P.S.: Do you feel sufficiently brown-nosed to, Cal?

Two always is quite sufficient, three begins to feel a little overkill.

[Pahoran]

I was just reading the story of Jethro's visit to Moses in the wilderness.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/18?lang=eng

 

I couldn't help but to wonder if Jethro could have made it as a Mormon.  As you remember, Jethro was Moses' father-in-law.  After just ONE DAY amongst the Israelites, Jethro pulled Moses aside and said:

 

"What you are doing is not good.  You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out.  The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone.  Listen now to me and I will give you some advice ... select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens."

 

This was obviously sage advice and somewhat mirrors how things are run in our church today, as priesthood functions are delegated to general authorities, area authorities, district leaders, stake presidents, bishops, etc.  Yet, who in our current church could feel free to speak so frankly to the Prophet?

 

His counselors, for a start.

 

I have heard many talks in which counselors in presidencies and bishoprics are compared to Jethro.

 

When Sister Kelly from OW had the "nerve" to ask that the Apostles pray for a revelation about extending the priesthood to women ("What you are doing is not good. The work is too heavy for you men ..."), many members were up in arms. They cried in one loud voice, "How dareth thou suggesth that the Prophet asketh the Lordeth for revelation? He has not appointed thee to the task of leading His Church." In fact, that is the dominate cry on this board whenever anyone has the "temerity" to suggest even the slightest change to how we do things.

 

Ms Kelly may suggest what she pleases.  However, the (rather arrogant) presumption that the brethren don't pray for guidance upon such matters seems to be based entirely upon the fact that they're not giving her the answer she wants.

 

How many of the "OW" crowd, with their hyperinflated attendance figures, actually bothered to watch the Priesthood session when they had the chance to do so?  They might have learned something.

 

Just last week, we went round and round because someone had the "unmitigated gall" to suggest that we not have grown men alone in the rooms talking about sex with children. Immediately, the "faithful" saints were up in arms. "Heretic!" "Heathen!" "Ark steadier!"

 

Don't you think you're being just a tad melodramatic?  Heretic?  Heathen?  Really?

 

So perhaps someone can explain to me why Jethro, the Priest of Midian, an outsider, could come out to the wilderness and start barking orders to God's Prophet and yet, long-time members of this Church are flirting with outer darkness if they so much as SUGGEST that the Prophets pray for guidance to add a half-note to a verse in a hymn. "Who put you in charge of the Lord's meter?"

 

Seriously, what am I missing?

 

You mean -- apart from just about everything?

 

What has changed in this dispensation that has caused the Lord to rest all of his inspiration in 15 men? Is there not a place in Zion for a Jethro or at least, an Ellie May? (Be still my heart)

 

There is and always has been a place for Jethros in the Church.  In fact, they're built into the structure.

 

It's the Korahs that we have no use for.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Avatar4321]

Why wouldn't there be room for Jethro? Because he gave advice to the prophet? I am pretty sure he hears advice all the time.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wonder how you can think the Brethren are "insulated." We have general authorities from all over the world. We have general authorities living and traveling all over the world. Any other group of individuals who had as many travel miles and experience in visiting other places would be lauded as well-traveled, erudite, and aware of the world. But since they are Mormons, they are presumptively ignernt?

I have a brother who works for the Church and lives in Samoa. He travels throughout the South Pacific constantly. He reports directly to the Presiding Bishopric about the welfare of the Saints. And when I say "welfare" I don't mean home teaching statistics. He reports to them about water supplies, community gardening, hygeine lessons, sewage disposal situations, cholera outbreaks, food shortages, educational difficulties, and on and on and on. My brother often sends us the reports he is submitting to the Presiding Bishopric, so I know first hand the kind of information they are getting. They are not insulated.

My sister's father-in-law is a general authority and lives in the Dominican Republic. He shares all sorts of things which he is working on with his son (my brother in law). The topics of discussion are both spiritual (church attendance of the Saints in the DR, FHE, etc.) and temporal (education, hygiene, nutrition, clean water, etc.). Again, the Brethren are not insulated.

I am presenting these as some of my personal experiences behind my assessment of the Brethren and their familiarity with the real world. They are familiar with it.

What is going on here? Why are the Brethren, who are perhaps some of the most well-traveled people in the world, and who meet with regional and local leaders and individual church members constantly, being deemed as "insulated?" Where did this idea come from?

Thanks,

-Smac

At a recent CES satellite devotional, Elder M. Russell Ballard commented on this notion about the Brethren being old men who are insulated from the world and generally out of touch. In a mild but effective way, he pretty much debunked this supposition.

 

From my news story:

 

“I have heard that some people think the Church leaders live in a ‘bubble,’” Elder Ballard noted. “What they forget is that we are men and women of experience and we have lived our lives in so many places and worked with so many people from different backgrounds. Our current church assignments literally take us around the globe where we meet the political, religious, business and humanitarian leaders of the world. Although we have visited the White House in Washington, D.C., and the leaders of nations throughout the world, we have also visited the most humble homes on earth, where we have met and ministered to the poor.”

Members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles each have strong personalities, he said, and when they are unified in a decision, they have arrived at it after much prayer and thoughtful discussion.

“We are young at heart, and the Lord blesses us to move His work forward in remarkable ways,” he said.

 

Edited May 20, 2014 by Scott Lloyd