To Whom Little Is Given, Much Is Criticized

[mormonnewb]

I try not to be critical of anyone as it is not up to me to run their lives.  I do tend to be a little more critical of ideas and while questioning them I try to respect the person.. My question to you is why did you leave the Baptist faith and come to the Mormon faith and now are trying to reform the Mormon Church into a copy of the Baptist Church? 

 

Here is something to think about:  The majority of believing Latter-day Saints are comfortable with the way the Church us run and are uncomfortable with activist disruption.

 

Don't worry.  I have no delusions that we could ever be Baptists.  I'm just trying to get us up to the level of the Methodists

[ERayR]

Don't worry.  I have no delusions that we could ever be Baptists.  I'm just trying to get us up to the level of the Methodists

 

And that is my point.  The Mormon Church was not Baptist or Methodist when you joined, and you knew it, so why are you trying to turn them into Baptists or Methodists now?

[The Nehor]

of course it can get complicated. While you'd put the blame on the critic, most often he who left would not put it on the critic but the information that he/she learned. Are we to take the reason you attribute to someone who has left, as if you have special insight? or shall we take them at their word? I think that's an important question to ask. All too often we want to define for others why they do things, like leave Mormonism, but that's the easy way to do it. Just ignore them and say we know better than they. In doing so we miss an important opportunity to learn and grow.

Too bad.

 

Of course that is why they. People don't leave the faith or damn themselves because Satan exists but his arguments often help. Satan doesn't get exonerated for his actions helping people exit the way to eternal life just because he was a contributor and not the root cause and neither do critics. If you do the devil's work you get the devil's reward.

 

I don't define why people leave. I do think careless idiots sowing doubt and criticism are going to hell unless they repent whether their words lead anyone out or not.

[stemelbow]

And that is my point.  The Mormon Church was not Baptist or Methodist when you joined, and you knew it, so why are you trying to turn them into Baptists or Methodists now?

I don't think he's tried to get any of us to turn into anything other than what we are. perhaps giving us things to consider in our individual paths in trying to become better. But surely I haven't read everything from him, so I could be mistaken.

[stemelbow]

Of course that is why they. People don't leave the faith or damn themselves because Satan exists but his arguments often help. Satan doesn't get exonerated for his actions helping people exit the way to eternal life just because he was a contributor and not the root cause and neither do critics. If you do the devil's work you get the devil's reward.

 

I don't define why people leave. I do think careless idiots sowing doubt and criticism are going to hell unless they repent whether their words lead anyone out or not.

Can you tell me an argument from Satan that has been the cause of people leaving the Church?

[The Nehor]

Can you tell me an argument from Satan that has been the cause of people leaving the Church?

Sure, a few popular ones:

"It is too hard."

"You will never make it anyways."

"It is all a lie."

2 out of those 3 have worked at me in the past.

[stemelbow]

Sure, a few popular ones:

"It is too hard."

"You will never make it anyways."

"It is all a lie."

2 out of those 3 have worked at me in the past.

who has left the church based on these complaints? Are you quoting Satan or the people who have left?

[ELF1024]

Sure, a few popular ones:

"It is too hard."

"You will never make it anyways."

"It is all a lie."

2 out of those 3 have worked at me in the past.

 

Ditto...

[The Nehor]

who has left the church based on these complaints? Are you quoting Satan or the people who have left?

I went less active for a year due to them and I know of others who have done the same.

[ELF1024]

who has left the church based on these complaints? Are you quoting Satan or the people who have left?

 Raises hand.

 

Quoting my reasoning at the time... may have been me, may have been someone else... Either way, I wasn't in the Church for about 10 years.

[stemelbow]

I went less active for a year due to them and I know of others who have done the same.

But it sounds like those were your complaints, not Satan's, no? Or are you saying Satan told you to feel these things and you felt like you had no choice in the matter?

Edited July 3, 2014 by stemelbow

[The Nehor]

But it sounds like those were your complaints, not Satan's, no? Or are you saying Satan told you to feel these things?

It was a joint effort between us.

They were not the only reasons. There was a group marriage I was tempted to join so you can add wanting to sin in there too as another argument.

[stemelbow]

Raises hand.

 

Quoting my reasoning at the time... may have been me, may have been someone else... Either way, I wasn't in the Church for about 10 years.

And it sounds like you came back. I don't know if this is true for you, but it seems like many individuals leave and come back perhaps even better and stronger. Maybe it wasn't Satan as we like to say, but just you. God allowing it knowing in time you'll be back ready to go again.

[mormonnewb]

Of course that is why they. People don't leave the faith or damn themselves because Satan exists but his arguments often help. Satan doesn't get exonerated for his actions helping people exit the way to eternal life just because he was a contributor and not the root cause and neither do critics. If you do the devil's work you get the devil's reward.

 

I don't define why people leave. I do think careless idiots sowing doubt and criticism are going to hell unless they repent whether their words lead anyone out or not.

 

This is a perfect example of what I see as an inverse pyramid of critique in our culture.  It is perfectly acceptable to cast a rank and file member or ex-member as a "careless idiot" for not properly discerning the word of the Lord.  However, if a Prophet (one to whom much Godly wisdom is given) fails to discern the will of God as to, say, the REASONS for the priesthood ban, no faithful member would dare call that man a "careless idiot" ... and rightfully so.

 

Why is it so much more acceptable to rain down condemnation on those with lesser understanding and exempt from even constructive criticism those in closest communion with HF?

[stemelbow]

It was a joint effort between us.

They were not the only reasons. There was a group marriage I was tempted to join so you can add wanting to sin in there too as another argument.

The only time I was close to less active was a period in my teens in which I was terribly bored with Church. I don't remember hearing Satan present an argument to me, so much as me just feeling like trying something else. Not sure if satan played a role in that or not. Don't see how he did. he certainly didn't tell me anything, show me anything.

[stemelbow]

This is a perfect example of what I see as an inverse pyramid of critique in our culture.  It is perfectly acceptable to cast a rank and file member or ex-member as a "careless idiot" for not properly discerning the word of the Lord.  However, if a Prophet (one to whom much Godly wisdom is given) fails to discern the will of God as to, say, the REASONS for the priesthood ban, no faithful member would dare call that man a "careless idiot" ... and rightfully so.

 

Why is it so much more acceptable to rain down condemnation on those with lesser understanding and exempt from even constructive criticism those in closest communion with HF?

Ouchers.

[ELF1024]

 Not sure if satan played a role in that or not. Don't see how he did. he certainly didn't tell me anything, show me anything.

 

If you're expecting a sign, then you may not be giving either the Lord or the Adversary enough credit.

[The Nehor]

This is a perfect example of what I see as an inverse pyramid of critique in our culture.  It is perfectly acceptable to cast a rank and file member or ex-member as a "careless idiot" for not properly discerning the word of the Lord.  However, if a Prophet (one to whom much Godly wisdom is given) fails to discern the will of God as to, say, the REASONS for the priesthood ban, no faithful member would dare call that man a "careless idiot" ... and rightfully so.

 

Why is it so much more acceptable to rain down condemnation on those with lesser understanding and exempt from even constructive criticism those in closest communion with HF?

Because God told us not to condemn our leaders. He makes it clear that He is more than capable of handling that Himself or having His own servants up the line of authority take care of it. I will gladly leave Him to it.

Comparing a lack of knowledge with genuine dissent is disingenuous. Want to guess what would happen if an apostle came out in open support of OW? Their treatment would make it look like Kate Kelly was treated with kid-gloves.

[The Nehor]

The only time I was close to less active was a period in my teens in which I was terribly bored with Church. I don't remember hearing Satan present an argument to me, so much as me just feeling like trying something else. Not sure if satan played a role in that or not. Don't see how he did. he certainly didn't tell me anything, show me anything.

I am guessing he did play a role. Not noticing it is not odd. He is not very obvious.

[ERayR]

Because God told us not to condemn our leaders. He makes it clear that He is more than capable of handling that Himself or having His own servants up the line of authority take care of it. I will gladly leave Him to it.

 

 

Psalms 105: 15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm

 

 

[stemelbow]

If you're expecting a sign, then you may not be giving either the Lord or the Adversary enough credit.

Sign for satan? Do I have to believe he's making decisions for me?

[mormonnewb]

Because God told us not to condemn our leaders. He makes it clear that He is more than capable of handling that Himself or having His own servants up the line of authority take care of it. I will gladly leave Him to it.

Comparing a lack of knowledge with genuine dissent is disingenuous. Want to guess what would happen if an apostle came out in open support of OW? Their treatment would make it look like Kate Kelly was treated with kid-gloves.

 

God also told us not to condemn one another.  "Judge not lest ye be judged."  Motes and beams.  Etcetera.  Etcetera.

 

As for the rank and file condemning an apostle for coming out in support of OW, I'm going to have to call BS (bull shucks) on that one.  Well, I'm new here, so I'll downgrade to "Are you sure?"  For example, when ETB and MEP were running around making their rather "sophisticated" sociological and anthropological statements on race, were rank and file members standing up in Sunday School and calling them "careless idiots"?  Or when McConkie jumped the tabernacle and began expounding non-correlated views of Mormon Doctrine, did rank and file members call him a "careless idiot"?

 

As I understand it, McConkie continued to be one of the most popular apostles, even after 1978.  People seemed to love his "straight talk," even if it did sometimes deviate from the Church's official doctrine.  In that vein, let's suppose that President Uchtdorf were to say that he supported ordaining women, but given that his Brethren hadn't received a similar revelation, it would have to wait until they were all agreed.  Do you think that this announcement would lead to the men of the Church to calling him a "careless idiot"? (I think we all know it's going to take a lot more than some doctrinal disagreement to get the WOMEN of the Church mad at him).  I'm new here, but I just don't see it.

[The Nehor]

Sign for satan? Do I have to believe he's making decisions for me?

 

No, in fact you should never believe that. You probably should believe that he is able to feed you ideas and reasoning.

[stemelbow]

I am guessing he did play a role. Not noticing it is not odd. He is not very obvious.

Perhaps we simply need to take responsibility for our decisions rather than suggest Satan convinced us. His arguments, even what you describe come from him, seem pretty weak. Its not like they are actual facts that seem to be driving people away.

[ERayR]

Sign for satan? Do I have to believe he's making decisions for me?

 

No but you might acknowledge when he influences your decisions.