Can An Apostle Retire?

[mormonnewb]

I was recently listening to a talk by [Elder?] [President?] L. Tom Perry, in which he started out mentioning that he had just celebrated his 90th birthday.  I can't tell you what he said after that because I kept thinking, "90 years old?  90?  And still working?  At a VERY important job?  At 90?"

 

I'm 47 years old and I'm trying to scheme a way to start my retirement at 50.  It is unfathomable to think that I will be doing anything productive at 90 (or at 47, for that matter).  At one point has a person done ENOUGH?

 

I often here people suggest that the decision of who serves as an apostle is in the Lord's hand and that He chooses when an apostle gets to "retire" (through death).  Quite frankly, I've never been comfortable with the idea that the Lord runs His Church like the CIA and therefore, when an "asset" is no longer useful, He will "eliminate" it.  I'm certainly glad that He doesn't run the Elder's Quorum or the Scoutmaster callings in that way.

 

So here is my question: Is there anything in our scripture or doctrine that would prevent an apostle from saying, "I'm done"?  MUST an apostle serve out the remainder of his life in that capacity or is it simply a matter of precedent that could change if an apostle so chose?

 

[Note: This is NOT my back-handed way of implying that any particular member of the FP of Q12 should retire; least of all, Elder/President Perry.  From what I did glean from his talk, he was more lucid and clear thinking at 90 than I am now (or have ever been).  I am simply curious as to whether the lifetime apostleship is the product of doctrine or culture.]

Edited March 14, 2015 by mormonnewb

[JLHPROF]

 

So here is my question: Is there anything in our scripture or doctrine that would prevent an apostle from saying, "I'm done"?  MUST an apostle serve out the remainder of his life in that capacity or is it simply a matter of precedent that could change if an apostle so chose?

 

If it were a job they could resign or retire.

It's not a job - it's who they are.  They hold the keys.  I'm sure allowances are made if they become ill or too frail to work.  But they cannot escape the authority vested in them.  And if they are the senior they will become the prophet, even if like Pres. Hunter they can only fill the role for one Conference.

[Uncle Dale]

If it were a job they could resign or retire.

It's not a job - it's who they are.  They hold the keys.  I'm sure allowances are made if they become ill or too frail to work.  But they cannot escape the authority vested in them.  And if they are the senior they will become the prophet, even if like Pres. Hunter they can only fill the role for one Conference.

Didn't Lyman Wight effectively "retire" from the Q12,

when he moved to Texas? His authority and membership

remained valid, for many months, but he refused to

participate in the activities of that quorum.

There was also the oddity of the Q12 having 13

members back in Amasa Lyman's day. Eventually

things got straightened out and only 15 men thus

ordained and called were left alive.

There were probably other such historical oddities that

escape my memory.

UD

[mormonnewb]

If it were a job they could resign or retire.

It's not a job - it's who they are.  They hold the keys.  I'm sure allowances are made if they become ill or too frail to work.  But they cannot escape the authority vested in them.  And if they are the senior they will become the prophet, even if like Pres. Hunter they can only fill the role for one Conference.

 

So their calling is different in substance than the rest of our callings?

[Duncan]

I think lately as in the last 100 years apostles have just basically worn out and died. I have no idea how much responsibility Elder Perry has or anyone has at that age! I once read that Pres. Packer said that being the Pres. of the Q12 was like a running a used car garage, just giving out as many assignments as the person can handle. I think the last Apostles who quit more or less were Elder Matthias F. Cowley and John W. Taylor in 1906

Edited March 14, 2015 by Duncan

[Coreyb]

I suppose he could just withdraw himself from the quorum of the twelve apostles and they could appoint a new apostle. He wouldn't lose his "apostleship" as it is an office, like elder or high priest. Nothing says there can only be twelve, or fifteen apostles at any one time. In fact there have been times where there have been more.

[The Nehor]

Currently they cannot. It is possible to have Apostles not in the Twelve and this has been done before. It would require revelation to change this policy I imagine. They would steal be apostles until death.

[JLHPROF]

So their calling is different in substance than the rest of our callings?

 

Yes and no.

I can't speak for their calling administratively in the Church.

But as for their priesthood office, they are Apostles.  The Senior Apostle becomes the Prophet (unless another is appointed).  I don't see how the amount of work they are able to do changes that.

 

You may not be an Elder's Quorumn President anymore, but you are still an Elder.  Same for Apostles.

[strappinglad]

I remember that Once I came home to a wife who had had a particularly tiring and frustrating day with my 5 kids. She emphatically said , " I quit! ". In my calmest voice I said, " Sweety, if this was a job you could quit, you would have been fired long ago. " Seeing got a lot harder through those 2 black eyes of mine.

As for the OP. There is emeritus status for those GAs who become extremely frail, but apostleship is a life long calling.

[The Nehor]

Retirement in general is a modern concept. It think the opposite is the problem. Lately we have received the counsel that the elderly do not retire from any priesthood office. You do not get to retire from Priesthood responsibilities even if you are a 90 year old Deacon.

Edited March 14, 2015 by The Nehor

[Coreyb]

Currently they cannot. It is possible to have Apostles not in the Twelve and this has been done before. It would require revelation to change this policy I imagine. They would steal be apostles until death.

Are you privy to some insider info that you can make this statement?

[Duncan]

Are you privy to some insider info that you can make this statement?

 

 

he's a janitor at the COB and found the memo in the garbage, next to a half eaten jambuster

[Coreyb]

I think lately as in the last 100 years apostles have just basically worn out and died. I have no idea how much responsibility Elder Perry has or anyone has at that age! I once read that Pres. Packer said that being the Pres. of the Q12 was like a running a used car garage, just giving out as many assignments as the person can handle. I think the last Apostles who quit more or less were Elder Matthias F. Cowley and John W. Taylor in 1906

They were dropped as a public sacrifice, but the effect was essentially just early retirement, until Cowley was restricted in his priesthood and Taylor excommunicated of course.

[sunstoned]

There has been several general authorities who have been given emeritus status, but so far they have all come from the ranks of the first quorum of the seventy or the presiding bishopric.  

[JLHPROF]

They were dropped as a public sacrifice, but the effect was essentially just early retirement, until Cowley was restricted in his priesthood and Taylor excommunicated of course.

 

They weren't dropped, they resigned as requested by Pres. Smith, but it was their choice..

 

Cowley had his priesthood restored but was never reinstated into the quorum (so presumably he was an Apostle not in the quorum).

 

Taylor was ex'd, and rebaptized 3 times after he died (although apparently only one counted).

[Coreyb]

They did not have a choice. It was put to a vote in the quorum without a full quorum present, ie those who would vote against it. They did "resign" like all high profile people resign when they get fired. Both seemed ok with it, or at least cooperated, as they new the tough position the church was in. Though It seems Taylor held a grudge against Reed Smoot for arranging the whole charade and was upset with his friend George Albert Smith for not defending him, and so he cursed George Albert at his excommunication trial years later and said some nasty things about Smoot.

[JLHPROF]

They did not have a choice. It was put to a vote in the quorum without a full quorum present, ie those who would vote against it. They did "resign" like all high profile people resign when they get fired. Both seemed ok with it, or at least cooperated, as they new the tough position the church was in. Though It seems Taylor held a grudge against Reed Smoot for arranging the whole charade and was upset with his friend George Albert Smith for not defending him, and so he cursed George Albert at his excommunication trial years later and said some nasty things about Smoot.

 

Rudger Clawson actually took another plural wife AFTER the 1904 2nd Manifesto and he had no problem staying in the quorum, and being President of the Quorum from 1918-1943.  Strange that he got  to fly under the radar and the other two had to leave.  He probably kept quiet.

[Coreyb]

Rudger Clawson actually took another plural wife AFTER the 1904 2nd Manifesto and he had no problem staying in the quorum, and being President of the Quorum from 1918-1943.  Strange that he got  to fly under the radar and the other two had to leave.  He probably kept quiet.

I know he married Pearl Udall in 1904, but I don't know if it was before or after the second manifesto was announced. Do you know a date for the marriage?

[mfbukowski]

No rest for the wicked, and the righteous don't need any

[mfbukowski]

he's a janitor at the COB and found the memo in the garbage, next to a half eaten jambuster

That's incredible! I wish I had been there!

What flavor was it?

[The Nehor]

Are you privy to some insider info that you can make this statement?

 

It is public record that there have been Apostles outside of the 12. The three witnesses were given the apostleship to choose the 12 but were never part of the 12. One of Brigham Young's sons was ordained an apostle but never joined the Quorum. It has not happened to my knowledge for at least a century.

 

There are no revelations prohibiting it happening again. There is no revelation stopping a new policy from going in to place where an apostle is released from the Quorum of the 12 and/or their First Presidency responsibilities. There is precedent in the Bible for similar actions. Aaron made his eldest son the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and stepped down and he lived for several more years afterwards.

 

This would obviously require some revelation (written or unwritten) from the Prophet but it could happen. It may or may not.

[Ham Clam]

I wish they could.

[JLHPROF]

I know he married Pearl Udall in 1904, but I don't know if it was before or after the second manifesto was announced. Do you know a date for the marriage?

 

The best historical anaylsis I could find as to when it could have happened places the date around August 3rd.  The 2nd Manifesto was issued at April Conference.

Edited March 14, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Duncan]

That's incredible! I wish I had been there!

What flavor was it?

 

raspberry!

[Duncan]

It is public record that there have been Apostles outside of the 12. The three witnesses were given the apostleship to choose the 12 but were never part of the 12. One of Brigham Young's sons was ordained an apostle but never joined the Quorum. It has not happened to my knowledge for at least a century.

 

There are no revelations prohibiting it happening again. There is no revelation stopping a new policy from going in to place where an apostle is released from the Quorum of the 12 and/or their First Presidency responsibilities. There is precedent in the Bible for similar actions. Aaron made his eldest son the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and stepped down and he lived for several more years afterwards.

 

This would obviously require some revelation (written or unwritten) from the Prophet but it could happen. It may or may not.

 

 

exactley, as we all know there doesn't even need to be 3 members of the First Pres. the last time there were more than three was in 1981.