Can An Apostle Retire?

[cinepro]

I was recently listening to a talk by [Elder?] [President?] L. Tom Perry, in which he started out mentioning that he had just celebrated his 90th birthday.  I can't tell you what he said after that because I kept thinking, "90 years old?  90?  And still working?  At a VERY important job?  At 90?"

 

I'm 47 years old and I'm trying to scheme a way to start my retirement at 50.  It is unfathomable to think that I will be doing anything productive at 90 (or at 47, for that matter).  At one point has a person done ENOUGH?

Based on this list, I think there are going to be lots of changes in the Q12 (and Church presidency) in the next few years.  The seven most senior apostles have an average age of 88!

 

Monson - 87

Packer - 90

Perry - 92

Nelson - 90

Oaks - 82

Ballard - 86

Scott - 86

Hales - 82

Holland - 74

Bednar - 62

Cook - 74

Christofferson - 70

Andersen - 63

 

 

(The average age of death for the last 10 apostles who died is  87)

 

Wirthlin - 91

Hinckley - 97

Faust - 87

Haight - 97

Maxwell - 78

Hunter - 87

Benson - 94

Ashton - 78

Romney - 90

McConkie - 69

Edited March 14, 2015 by cinepro

[Duncan]

Based on this list, I think there are going to be lots of changes in the Q12 (and Church presidency) in the next few years.  The seven most senior apostles have an average age of 88!

 

Monson - 87

Packer - 90

Perry - 92

Nelson - 90

Oaks - 82

Ballard - 86

Scott - 86

Hales - 82

Holland - 74

Bednar - 62

Cook - 74

Christofferson - 70

Andersen - 63

 

 

(The average age of death for the last 10 apostles who died is  87)

 

Wirthlin - 91

Hinckley - 97

Faust - 87

Haight - 97

Maxwell - 78

Hunter - 87

Benson - 94

Ashton - 78

Romney - 90

McConkie - 69

 

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if when an Apostle dies people send in their "Church career" resume's! In Pres. Kimball's bio, he said they get applicants to be Mission Presidents-of which they don't call those guys obviously

[Coreyb]

It is public record that there have been Apostles outside of the 12. The three witnesses were given the apostleship to choose the 12 but were never part of the 12. One of Brigham Young's sons was ordained an apostle but never joined the Quorum. It has not happened to my knowledge for at least a century.

 

There are no revelations prohibiting it happening again. There is no revelation stopping a new policy from going in to place where an apostle is released from the Quorum of the 12 and/or their First Presidency responsibilities. There is precedent in the Bible for similar actions. Aaron made his eldest son the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and stepped down and he lived for several more years afterwards.

 

This would obviously require some revelation (written or unwritten) from the Prophet but it could happen. It may or may not.

I know the historical precedents, my question is why would it take a revelation necessarily? Sorry, I wasn't clear.

[Coreyb]

I wouldn't be too surprised if when an Apostle dies people send in their "Church career" resume's! In Pres. Kimball's bio, he said they get applicants to be Mission Presidents-of which they don't call those guys obviously

Haha. Can we say, pretentious

[Sleeper Cell]

It is public record that there have been Apostles outside of the 12. The three witnesses were given the apostleship to choose the 12 but were never part of the 12. One of Brigham Young's sons was ordained an apostle but never joined the Quorum. It has not happened to my knowledge for at least a century.

 

There are no revelations prohibiting it happening again. There is no revelation stopping a new policy from going in to place where an apostle is released from the Quorum of the 12 and/or their First Presidency responsibilities. There is precedent in the Bible for similar actions. Aaron made his eldest son the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and stepped down and he lived for several more years afterwards.

 

This would obviously require some revelation (written or unwritten) from the Prophet but it could happen. It may or may not.

 

A more recent example.  Alvin R. Dyer was ordained an Apostle in Oct 1967.  Called  as an “additional counselor” (not 1st or 2nd counselor) in the 1st Presidency  in April 1968.  Released in 1970 (at the death of Pres. McKay) and resumed his previous calling as an “Assistant to the 12“   (even though he remained an Apostle).  In 1976, he (and all other “Assistants to the 12“) were called as members of the 1st Q of 70  He died a year later, a “lowly” member of the 1st Q of 70 (but still an apostle), having never served in the Q of 12.  

Edited March 14, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Sleeper Cell]

I know the historical precedents, my question is why would it take a revelation necessarily? Sorry, I wasn't clear.

If members of the 12 are called by revelation,  wouldn’t releasing  them also require a revelation?  

[Duncan]

If members of the 12 are called by revelation,  wouldn’t releasing  them also require a revelation?  

 

 

some people use their agency and just quit or whatever like Elder Richard R. Lyman but calling a new apostle like Elder Mark E. Petersen would require a revelation

[Sleeper Cell]

I wouldn't be too surprised if when an Apostle dies people send in their "Church career" resume's! In Pres. Kimball's bio, he said they get applicants to be Mission Presidents-of which they don't call those guys obviously

 

Since many are former bishops, stake presidents, and mission presidents, what would you put on your resume to make it stand out?   “One of my strongest traits is my humility?”

 

I need to update my resume so it will be ready in time for the next opening.  How does “I have over a thousand posts on MDDB” sound for starters?  Plus my vast church executive experience (a few months as a counselor in a Sunday school presidency).   I will close the sale by pointing out that my elevation to the “apostleship” would be far more faith promoting than that of the other applicants.  Choose me, and church members will be saying to each other:  “Now I know, beyond  a shadow of a doubt, that the Lord calls apostles by revelation.  After all, he must have been called by the Lord  -- because nobody else would have considered him.”

[Duncan]

 

Since many are former bishops, stake presidents, and mission presidents, what would you put on your resume to make it stand out?   “One of my strongest traits is my humility?”

 

I need to update my resume so it will be ready in time for the next opening.  How does “I have over a thousand posts on MDDB” sound for starters?  Plus my vast church executive experience (a few months as a counselor in a Sunday school presidency).   I will close the sale by pointing out that my elevation to the “apostleship” would be far more faith promoting than that of the other applicants.  Choose me, and church members will be saying to each other:  “Now I know, beyond  a shadow of a doubt, that the Lord calls apostles by revelation.  After all, he must have been called by the Lord  -- because nobody else would have considered him.”

 

 

 

you need to put down any relations or friends, university affiliations, degrees always help

[strappinglad]

Was Paul ever considered a member of the 12 in Christ's age?

[mormonnewb]

Was Paul ever considered a member of the 12 in Christ's age?

You had to open up that can of worms, didn't you? Deep doctrine (ie, rampant speculation), here we come! But I'll go first ...

It appears that Paul was NOT called by Peter, James, John, et al. Here is how Paul starts Galatians:

"This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead." (Galatians 1:1, NLT).

Now, to be clear, that is the translation from the New Living Translation. Our KJV is a little more vague on the point:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)"

Edited March 14, 2015 by mormonnewb

[Stargazer]

You had to open up that can of worms, didn't you? Deep doctrine (ie, rampant speculation), here we come! But I'll go first ...

It appears that Paul was NOT called by Peter, James, John, et al. Here is how Paul starts Galatians:

"This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead." (Galatians 1:1, NLT).

Now, to be clear, that is the translation from the New Living Translation. Our KJV is a little more vague on the point:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)"

 

Saint Matthias, whose was Judas' replacement, could have said the same.  The Apostles nominated two candidates and let a casting of lots determine which one the Lord wanted.  There is no mention in any record or alleged record of Paul being called as a member of the Twelve Apostles, and Paul writes nothing about it.  He doesn't even mention the 12 Apostles as a group. 

 

The problem is that the word apostle is from the Greek, meaning "one who is sent forth" or "messenger", i.e. a missionary.  Paul could rightly claim to be an apostle in that sense, and thus could have been an apostle without needing to be an Apostle.

 

Or so it seems to me.

[strappinglad]

Paul seems to be saying that he was called as an apostle by Christ Himself and by the Father( we shall ignore the obvious problem) unlike Mathias who was called by the original 12 ( 11).

I know Paul knew at least some of the original 12 and I assume he met in council occasionally. I wonder if he had actually met Christ while He was preaching or if he only knew of Him by reputation.

[Avatar4321]

Retire? Where did The Lord say work six days and rest on the seventh until you get to be a certain age and then stop working?

As for Paul he was a member of the twelve

[Robert F. Smith]

....................................................................

  “Now I know, beyond  a shadow of a doubt, that the Lord calls apostles by revelation.  After all, he must have been called by the Lord  -- because nobody else would have considered him.”

[Robert F. Smith]

some people use their agency and just quit or whatever like Elder Richard R. Lyman but calling a new apostle like Elder Mark E. Petersen would require a revelation

Roman Catholic popes have retired, and the current Pope Francis says that his papacy will not be long, and that he may retire also.  We have had an emeritus Church Patriarch, and we could conceivably have an emeritus Prophet.  The Prophet, like the Pope, may presumably do as he wishes.  Who would say him "nay"?

[Robert F. Smith]

............................................

The problem is that the word apostle is from the Greek, meaning "one who is sent forth" or "messenger", i.e. a missionary.  Paul could rightly claim to be an apostle in that sense, and thus could have been an apostle without needing to be an Apostle.

...............................................   

Greek “apostle” is merely the translation of Hebrew šaliaḥ  “messenger,” which is also the meaning of Hebrew malʼāk “messenger, angel,” as in Malachi “My-messenger”), normally translated by Greek angelos, angela “messenger, envoy; birds of augury; divine messenger, angel” (Attica, Homer, Herodotus).

[The Nehor]

Roman Catholic popes have retired, and the current Pope Francis says that his papacy will not be long, and that he may retire also.  We have had an emeritus Church Patriarch, and we could conceivably have an emeritus Prophet.  The Prophet, like the Pope, may presumably do as he wishes.  Who would say him "nay"?

I think God could say "nay".

[strappinglad]

I was going to say something about getting an answer straight from ...., but good thing I caught myself before committing such a faux pas .

[mormonnewb]

I think God could say "nay".

So when do you progress to the level when you lose your agency? Q12, GA, AA, Mission President?

It's an academic question in my case but I'd like to warn my SP to not accept any "higher" callings to avoid being made an offer he literally CAN'T refuse.

Edited March 15, 2015 by mormonnewb

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm probably going to wind up with dementia or alheizmers and if I was an apostle I would think I would need to retire or my talks at conference would be very interesting.

[cinepro]

Roman Catholic popes have retired, and the current Pope Francis says that his papacy will not be long, and that he may retire also.  We have had an emeritus Church Patriarch, and we could conceivably have an emeritus Prophet.  The Prophet, like the Pope, may presumably do as he wishes.  Who would say him "nay"?

 

I think the situation with the emeritus Patriarch was an exceptional circumstance.  Ed Kimball's bio of Spencer W. Kimball mentions how President Kimball (jokingly?) said that he wished he could be released when his health was failing him.  So I suspect if there were any way for it to happen, that would have been the time. 

[The Nehor]

So when do you progress to the level when you lose your agency? Q12, GA, AA, Mission President?

It's an academic question in my case but I'd like to warn my SP to not accept any "higher" callings to avoid being made an offer he literally CAN'T refuse.

You never do. You do eventually reach the point where if your actions would lead the church down the wrong road that God will remove you from your office, perhaps by taking you home. You do not get an escape clause from divine correction because you blubber about agency. If that were the case Sodom might be a prosperous city to this day.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think God could say "nay".

As long as you are not pontificating . . .

[mfbukowski]

So when do you progress to the level when you lose your agency? Q12, GA, AA, Mission President?

It's an academic question in my case but I'd like to warn my SP to not accept any "higher" callings to avoid being made an offer he literally CAN'T refuse.

I had an opportunity to talk to a GA this weekend.

 

One of the things he emphasized was that the apostles are highly motivated to do good continually and their purpose in life is to serve.  They thrive on service.  It is an issue of putting one's agency into perfect alignment with God's will- NOT giving up one's agency.

 

It is said that the savior did "NOTHING" but what his father did.   His personal agency was essentially erased.

 

I personally hope I get to this point sometime in my life.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/08/a-disposition-to-do-good-continually?lang=eng