Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[ERayR]

There is not nor has there ever been one true faith when it comes to Christiantiy.

Your gospel is the gospel of Paul. It is one amongst about a dozen others of early Christianity.

 

One true faith is not dependent on universal acceptance as such.  There is one true church it is our quest to find it.

[ERayR]

Each of us answer these questions differently. If I agreed with your answers, I'd be LDS. 

 

What is great is that much of his life can be studied, so his fruits are plain for anyone willing to study them. 

 

Perhaps if you did not look to anti-Mormon sources for your information you would be able to accept those answers.

[Teancum]

One true faith is not dependent on universal acceptance as such.  There is one true church it is our quest to find it.

 

 

But there is not nor has there ever bee one true church.

[ERayR]

But there is not nor has there ever bee one true church.

 

I would suggest anything organized and sponsored by Jesus Christ would qualify.

[JLHPROF]

But there is not nor has there ever bee one true church.

 

The scriptures disagree.

[teddyaware]

Works are not a byproduct of faith. You cannot separate works from faith. Works are what animate faith. Without works, faith is dead. Can dead faith save?

What you have to differentiate is works of the Law of Moses, and works of the Law of faith.

LDS claim you cannot have living faith without works. You claim they are separate. I hope it is a simple semantics issue but alas - you will most likely fall on your sword rather than agree.

 

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2)

 

From an LDS vantage point, the best way to truly come to understand the whole faith vs works controversy is to go to Paul himself -- the great proponent of salvation by grace and not works -- and read his most famous statement on the subject (above) in the full context of his thought process rather than try to comprehend verses 8 and 9 of Ephesians 2 in isolation. I will now quote Ephesians 2:1-10 and make pertinent LDS oriented commentary after each verse:

 

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

As all Latter-day Saints know, by reason of the fall all men inherit a fallen nature; a fallen nature that leaves man utterly powerless to save himself from spiritual death, sin, hell and the devil. But there is hope! If a fallen man comes unto Christ with living faith in Him, and His atoning sacrifice, and by reason of genuine remorse of conscience sincerely repents of his sins, that man will receive a remission of his sins and the further reward of a clean and clear conscience. In addition, if that redeemed and forgiven man goes on to receive the spiritual empowerment promised to the penitent by means of the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can become a new creature IN CHRIST (Christ is the one who forgives and spiritually regenerates) and escape the very fallen nature that ensnared him in spiritual death and sin in the first place.

 

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

Paul declares that before conversion (prior to forgiveness of sin and spiritual regeneration through Christ) the Ephesian saints experienced for themselves the baleful condition of having a fallen nature, while living in a fallen world, with the devil -- a fallen evil spirit who has power to darkly influence fallen man to do the WORKS of spiritual death (dead WORKS). Disobedience to God's holy laws is largely a consequence of  the WORKS of the devil who who preys upon the fallen nature as he assiduously attempts to increase and exacerbate the enslaving hold the fallen nature has on man. 

 

 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

Paul here underscores underscores the narrative of verse 2, reiterating the fact that by very nature an unredeemed and unspiritually man desires to fulfill the sinful lusts and desires of his fallen flesh and fallen carnal mind.  

 

 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 

In this verse, Paul offers hope to those who sincerely want to escape the lusts of the flesh and the fallen carnal mind. That hope is founded in the knowledge that God greatly loves man, even as he struggles in his fallen state, and in His abundant mercy has provided a means of escape from the fallen nature and its natural desire to do the WORKS of unrighteousness.

 

 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

God loves mankind so much that, even while they continue to take pleasure in sin and unrighteousness, He provided an atoning Saviour who has the power to forgive and raise fallen man from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life. Fallen man does nothing to earn the right to participate in this program of divine spiritual rescue, it is God Himself who provides fallen man with the means of escape out of mercy and love.

 

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

Fallen man cannot save fallen man; it is the WORK of Christ that saves man and elevates him to sit upon thrones of divine power and authority in His kingdom.

 

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

For all ages to come Paul wants all generations of men to be clear about the fact it is God's unmerited kindness, and the many blessings of salvation extended to fallen man through Christ, that elevates fallen men out of their lost and carnal state.

 

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

Paul wants the saints to understand that even though living faith is required in order to access God's saving grace, nevertheless, living faith is a graciously imparted spiritual gift made available only by the saving WORK of Christ.      "... and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen and there could NO GOOD THING come unto them." (Moroni 7:24)

 

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

We are to understand that the WORK of fallen man cannot save fallen man. If so, fallen man could rightly boast of his own saving power and righteousness -- but he can't. It is the WORK of Christ alone that saves man. First by fallen man being justified (forgiven) by the sufferings and shed blood of Christ; next by man being sanctified by the empowerment, enlightenment and spiritual regeneration of the carnal mind through the purifying power of the Holy Ghost. In all the actions a man needs to take in order to avail himself of God's forgiveness and sanctification, he is merely placing himself in a position to be blessed through Christ, not creating the state of blessedness.

 

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walkin them. (Ephesians  2)

 

This verse holds the key to understanding: As a man complies with law of the Gospel of Christ, that man allows Christ to WORK upon and within him spiritually. The work Christ performs on man is in the form of continued justification, spiritual enlightenment, spiritual  empowerment and the spiritual refinement of the motions. After a man (Christ's WORKMANSHIP) has been wrought upon in this way, if he does good it is no longer that man alone and unaided who does the work of God, rather he is a man who does good (keeps the commandments) by the power and gifts of God.

 

While it is undeniably true it is by a man's own choice that he either continues to grow in the grace and knowledge of God or backslides and even falls from grace; even so, as a consequence of the fall, without the power and gifts of God it is impossible for man to do any good at all. Hence, by the WORKS of man no man can be justified and sanctified; but by the WORKS of God, wrought upon and manifested in the sons of men, man can not only be saved but eventually become perfect, even as Christ and his Father are perfect in all things. Moroni perfectly encapsulates the gospel principle that fallen man can do no good apart from the blessings of the grace of God.

 

 24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

 25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall WORK by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

Edited January 27, 2015 by teddyaware

[Flyonthewall]

The key question that gets us out of that loop is justification. What justifies is Faith, "We are justified by faith". Works of the law cannot and do not ever justify us before God.

Works are part of faith, so when you say "We are justified by faith", works are included. The works of the Law of Moses is what does not justify. That is a point that was driven home by the Apostles.

 

What kind of faith justifies us before God?

Living faith.

The type that produces the works of faith, as James points out. In essence, it's the fruit of faith, but the fruit doesn't justify us, the faith does.

Works are not a "fruit" of faith - that implies they are separate. You cannot separate works from faith.

Works are the animating force of faith. Faith is dead until it is given life by works(Again, I hope this is simply a semantics issue).

As I have said before, faith is like an automobile. It is fine and dandy sitting in your driveway, but it will not do a single thing until YOU get in and operate it.

[JLHPROF]

What kind of faith justifies us before God? That type that produces the works of faith, as James points out. In essence, it's the fruit of faith, but the fruit doesn't justify us, the faith does. 

 

This is true, but the very clear point made by the scriptures is that without the works, the faith doesn't exist.  This idea that we are saved by our faith but not by our works is a complete red herring.  You might as well say you can eat mac and cheese without the cheese.  Nope.

 

To have faith without works is actually an impossibility.  If you have no works, you don't truly have faith.

[danielwoods]

Perhaps if you did not look to anti-Mormon sources for your information you would be able to accept those answers.

 

As I said, the great thing is that anyone can study his life and see if he or the other prophets that followed him have the fruits of the Spirit. 

[ERayR]

As I said, the great thing is that anyone can study his life and see if he or the other prophets that followed him have the fruits of the Spirit. 

 

My self evaluation puts me in a pretty good position.

 

I hope and firmly believe that Jesus' mercy is much better than yours.

Edited January 28, 2015 by ERayR

[ERayR]

This is true, but the very clear point made by the scriptures is that without the works, the faith doesn't exist.  This idea that we are saved by our faith but not by our works is a complete red herring.  You might as well say you can eat mac and cheese without the cheese.  Nope.

 

To have faith without works is actually an impossibility.  If you have no works, you don't truly have faith.

 

It is as erroneous as the idea that we are saved by works alone.  It is merely the opposite side of the same coin.

[danielwoods]

Works are part of faith, so when you say "We are justified by faith", works are included. The works of the Law of Moses is what does not justify. That is a point that was driven home by the Apostles.

 

Living faith.

Works are not a "fruit" of faith - that implies they are separate. You cannot separate works from faith.

Works are the animating force of faith. Faith is dead until it is given life by works(Again, I hope this is simply a semantics issue).

As I have said before, faith is like an automobile. It is fine and dandy sitting in your driveway, but it will not do a single thing until YOU get in and operate it.

 

It is largely a difference in semantics. However, the bible never states that we are justified by our works of any kind. 

 

This is true, but the very clear point made by the scriptures is that without the works, the faith doesn't exist.  This idea that we are saved by our faith but not by our works is a complete red herring.  You might as well say you can eat mac and cheese without the cheese.  Nope.

 

To have faith without works is actually an impossibility.  If you have no works, you don't truly have faith.

The difference (if it really matters) is where no one else can't see the works, but God can see the faith. 

[danielwoods]

My self evaluation puts me in a pretty good position.

 

I hope and firmly believe that Jesus' mercy is much better than yours.

 

Well, what's interesting is that Jesus didn't say "pray and get a witness that this or that person is a prophet," Rather, what he said is you "Will know them by their fruits." Knowledge comes from observing or studying their lives. 

[Freedom]

 

It is largely a difference in semantics. However, the bible never states that we are justified by our works of any kind. 

 

The difference (if it really matters) is where no one else can't see the works, but God can see the faith. 

Justification comes through the atonement. Access to justification comes through works of righteousness or obedience to the commandments. Faith is an example of a work of righteousness. 

[Anakin7]

    From my LDS Kryptonian Archive by a non LDS Catholic Christian Brother on this subject -   http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/merit.html

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited January 28, 2015 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Justification comes through the atonement. Access to justification comes through works of righteousness or obedience to the commandments. Faith is an example of a work of righteousness.

 

I'm sorry but I can't find any scripture to support your view. Access to justification comes through faith not obedience. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He doesn't come to us and command that we become obedient to the commandments first, rather, the process is faith comes first with salvation, then regeneration by the Spirit. 

 

 

Acts 13:39

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Romans 3:20

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:21

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Anakin7]

       Faith - pistis = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obediance/Trust  in the Anchient Middle East in Biblical Era/Time. See also Hebrews 5:9

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited January 28, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

        We Acccept True Grace [charis] by True Faith [pistis]

 

         In His Debt/Grace

               Anakin7

Edited January 28, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

   Post deleted.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

 

It is largely a difference in semantics. However, the bible never states that we are justified by our works of any kind. 

 

The difference (if it really matters) is where no one else can't see the works, but God can see the faith.

 

Because, by very nature, even the most devoted follower of Christ is imperfect, no work he performs will ever be considered a work of perfect righteousness -- even if his works are inspired and empowered by the Spirit of God. The fact is that the standard of righteousness God imposes on His people is His own standard of perfect divine righteousness; so the man of God can never hope to establish his own righteousness because he cannot perform perfect works every moment of his entire life. No matter how sincerely motivated and spiritually empowered, the man of God will inevitably and invariably fall short of God's standard of absolute perfection. So you are right when you say the Bible states that the disciple of Christ can never be justified (declared free of sin and righteous) by his works. But God has provided a way...

 

First, through a living and vibrant faith in Christ, and His atoning sacrifice, the man of God can obtain and always retain a remission of his sins. He can also obtain acquittal for his imperfections and imperfect nature, so long as he continues steadfast and immovable in his faith, thereby exhibiting a genuine and humble willingness to live his life on earth as God would have him live it.  

 

Second, the Lord promises the faithful disciple of Christ that His empowering and enlightening Spirit will always dwell within him, thereby enabling him to grow in the grace, knowledge, righteousness and diligence of God in spite of the fact that he has not yet become perfect, even as his Father which is in Heaven is perfect. So long as the man of God is growing in the righteousness of God through the power of Spirit, being sure to not allow himself to fall from his own steadfastness in Christ (thereby doing despite to the Spirit of grace), the perfection of Christ's perfect work is imputed to that man and the demands of the God's perfect law of justice are satisfied, despite any lingering imperfection.  

Edited January 28, 2015 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

I'm sorry but I can't find any scripture to support your view. Access to justification comes through faith not obedience. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He doesn't come to us and command that we become obedient to the commandments first, rather, the process is faith comes first with salvation, then regeneration by the Spirit. 

 

 

Acts 13:39

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Romans 3:20

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:21

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

You do realize that whenever Paul refers to works/the law he is specifically referring to the law of Moses (specifically as lived by the Pharisees).  He is NOT referring to all ordinances.  Christ was baptized and he had no need to be cleansed from sin but he did it to "fulfill all righteousness".

 

No, the "works" you deem so unneccessary aren't ALL works, but rather refer to the law of Moses exclusively.  Claiming this refers to the keeping of all commandments  and ordinances is completely overreaching.  Not even Paul said that.

[danielwoods]

Because, by very nature, even the most devoted follower of Christ is imperfect, no work he performs will ever be considered a work of perfect righteousness -- even if his works are inspired and empowered by the Spirit of God. The fact is that the standard of righteousness God imposes on His people is His own standard of perfect divine righteousness; so the man of God can never hope to establish his own righteousness because he cannot perform perfect works every moment of his entire life. No matter how sincerely motivated and spiritually empowered, the man of God will inevitably and invariably fall short of God's standard of absolute perfection. So you are right when you say the Bible states that the disciple of Christ can never be justified (declared free of sin and righteous) by his works. But God has provided a way...

 

First, through a living and vibrant faith in Christ, and His atoning sacrifice, the man of God can obtain and always retain a remission of his sins. He can also obtain acquittal for his imperfections and imperfect nature, so long as he continues steadfast and immovable in his faith, thereby exhibiting a genuine and humble willingness to live his life on earth as God would have him live it.  

 

Second, the Lord promises the faithful disciple of Christ that His empowering and enlightening Spirit will always dwell within him, thereby enabling him to grow in the grace, knowledge, righteousness and diligence of God in spite of the fact that he has not yet become perfect, even as his Father which is in Heaven is perfect. So long as the man of God is growing in the righteousness of God through the power of Spirit, being sure to not allow himself to fall from his own steadfastness in Christ (thereby doing despite to the Spirit of grace), the perfection of Christ's perfect work is imputed to that man and the demands of the God's perfect law of justice are satisfied, despite any lingering imperfection.  

 

I agree with you… I know, strange. 

[Anakin7]

       Part of Believing is Obeying or else it is not a complete Belief/Faith  according to one Evangelical Christian that I know - www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf

 

       In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited January 29, 2015 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

You do realize that whenever Paul refers to works/the law he is specifically referring to the law of Moses (specifically as lived by the Pharisees).  He is NOT referring to all ordinances.  Christ was baptized and he had no need to be cleansed from sin but he did it to "fulfill all righteousness".

 

No, the "works" you deem so unneccessary aren't ALL works, but rather refer to the law of Moses exclusively.  Claiming this refers to the keeping of all commandments  and ordinances is completely overreaching.  Not even Paul said that.

 

You are correct, and I don't think I claimed otherwise. The concept that any of our works justify us isn't found in scripture. You are free to quote some you know about. The law of moses is what they had at the time. Now we have christ, and as paul states:

Philippians 3:7-9

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ

9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,

 

 

Notice "not having mine own righteousness" we aren't justified by our own righteousness ever, no matter how you slice it. Only Christ's and that is through faith. 

[Anakin7]

 Came across this article from a non LDS Christian -    http://www.bereanpublishers.com/must-christians-be-righteous/

 

 Would like to also add this -    https://www.academia.edu/447879/Grace_and_Faith_in_History_and_Within_the_Context_of_Mormon_Soteriology

 If dark click small x in box in middle of screen in upper left corner.

 

 

 In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited January 29, 2015 by Anakin7