Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

I know, and with Mormonism it's all that you can do. What if some just think well that's all I can do now and others think I can never do enough, probably the reason they run into some mental issues. Where if you come to the faith as EV's do and have that personal relationship because you've been saved, works are suppose to come naturally. But I have to admit I don't have that yet but have seen it on shows etc. and it's a little strange to me. But they truly take Him upon themselves and its all about Him from then on. Almost like a lover, so I wonder if they don't work very hard at other relationships.

 

We never have to teach newlyweds how to show their love for each other, right? The same is true with our relationship with God. It comes naturally. His relationship with us inspires to do good works by his love and grace. The closer we get to him, the more motivated we are to do his will. 

 

And by way of extending that analogy, the demonstrations of our love are not the reason for the love relationship, rather the love relationship causes the demonstrations of that love. 

[danielwoods]

    John 6: 28-29 - Then they asked him, "what must we do to do the works that God requires ?. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent".

 

    NIV footnote for John 6:29 - work of God. Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for - the one that leads to eternal life.

 

    From my understanding True Anchient Belief/Faith come from the same root greek word from which denotes action on the part of the individual.

 

    In His Debt/Grace

           Anakin7

 

I agree with you, however, when talking about James as a reference, the works talked about are actual actions we physically do. 

[danielwoods]

He never said that. You cannot be saved with our works alone. Mere belief, i.e. "faith" wont save you alone. Only faith coupled with works saves you.

 

You are engaging in a semantics game.

 

Hydrogen alone is just hydrogen. But when you add 2 molecules of hydrogen (faith) with one molecule of oxygen (works) you get water (salvation).

 

So, please cite for me where this formula is stated? Where it specifically specifies how much works it takes to be justified before God? 

[JLHPROF]

Your position is that faith and works are inseparable, to the point that you claim that works save us. Then why is it that no where in the bible does it tell us how many works it takes to justify us? You'd think that if it was works that actually justified us before God, that God would tell us how much it takes, don't you? 

 

Because it's not about numbers.  It's not about specifics.  It's about demonstrating the existence of our faith by doing the things Christ commanded.  Christ said "be baptized".  Those with faith get baptized.  Christ said "Love thy Neighbor".  Those with faith love their neighbors.  Christ said "render unto Ceasar/God".  those with faith meet their obligations.

 

Those who claim they are justified in their faith and do no good works are deluded as to the existence of their faith.  Christ never came to save us in our sins.  He came to save us from our sins.  Thinking we can be justified if we keep choosing to sin and not do as God asks is NOT faith.

 

To claim you have faith in Christ and then to do nothing Christ commanded is to lie to yourself.  If you do not do Christ's commandments (and there are many) to the best of your ability, you plain and simply do not have faith.  Hebrews is clear on that - faith is the evidence of the unseen.  No evidence, no faith.

 

So whenever a "traditional" Christian starts going on about being justified by faith alone, I put it down to nothing but semantics.  An insignificant argument to create a division where none exists.

Faith without works ISN'T faith.  Arguing which one justifies you is just silly.  If you have faith, you are going to do works.  If you don't do works, you don't have faith.  James knew that.  John knew that.  And Hebrews shows even Paul knew that.

 

Seriously, why would God even bother to give commandments, set laws and punishments, call us to repentance, or any of the other directions from God, if he was going to save everyone to his presence who believed in him anyway.  It makes absolutely no sense.  God doesn't talk to man just to hear the sound of his own voice.  If he gives a commandment to men, he expects us to keep it.

[Anakin7]

       James is addressing those that say they have faith [intellectual] but there are no labors of love that abound with True Faith - pistis = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Dicsipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the person and work of Jesus Christ and truly accept/access/activate True Grace.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    dw Believing on Jesus is the same as obeying Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm     We stay in True Grace [charis] by our True Faith [pistis].

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anakin7

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, please cite for me where this formula is stated? Where it specifically specifies how much works it takes to be justified before God? 

James. He tells us that faith with out works is dead. In other words you cannot be saved by faith alone. It is not a living faith. I would call a non living faith not being saved.

 

And you are missing the point. It is not a matter of how much works or how many you have. It is a matter of having works coupled with your faith. James never says that you need 12 works to be justified you are just creating a straw man. Just that you need them for your faith to be made alive.

 

Don't like it? Take it up with James.

[danielwoods]

Because it's not about numbers.  It's not about specifics.  It's about demonstrating the existence of our faith by doing the things Christ commanded.  Christ said "be baptized".  Those with faith get baptized.  Christ said "Love thy Neighbor".  Those with faith love their neighbors.  Christ said "render unto Ceasar/God".  those with faith meet their obligations.

 

Those who claim they are justified in their faith and do no good works are deluded as to the existence of their faith.  Christ never came to save us in our sins.  He came to save us from our sins.  Thinking we can be justified if we keep choosing to sin and not do as God asks is NOT faith.

 

To claim you have faith in Christ and then to do nothing Christ commanded is to lie to yourself.  If you do not do Christ's commandments (and there are many) to the best of your ability, you plain and simply do not have faith.  Hebrews is clear on that - faith is the evidence of the unseen.  No evidence, no faith.

 

So whenever a "traditional" Christian starts going on about being justified by faith alone, I put it down to nothing but semantics.  An insignificant argument to create a division where none exists.

Faith without works ISN'T faith.  Arguing which one justifies you is just silly.  If you have faith, you are going to do works.  If you don't do works, you don't have faith.  James knew that.  John knew that.  And Hebrews shows even Paul knew that.

 

Seriously, why would God even bother to give commandments, set laws and punishments, call us to repentance, or any of the other directions from God, if he was going to save everyone to his presence who believed in him anyway.  It makes absolutely no sense.  God doesn't talk to man just to hear the sound of his own voice.  If he gives a commandment to men, he expects us to keep it.

 

What justifies us is the Blood of Christ shed on the Cross. As it states in Hebrews, that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. 

 

So, what justifies us in the eyes of God? Is it demonstrating our faith or actually trusting in the fact that Christ shed his blood for us? 

[JLHPROF]

What justifies us is the Blood of Christ shed on the Cross. As it states in Hebrews, that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. 

 

 

Absolutely true.  Hebrews 5:9 -And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He gave MANY commandments to be obeyed.  Not everyone that says Lord, Lord (accepts him as Savior) will merit the blessing of his blood.  Those that do his will are the ones exercising faith in the shedding of his blood.  Those who do not his will have no faith in him and are not under the atonement.

 

 

 

So, what justifies us in the eyes of God? Is it demonstrating our faith or actually trusting in the fact that Christ shed his blood for us?

 

Both.  If we don't do as Christ commands, we don't truly accept him as Lord.  And if we don't truly accept him as Lord his shedding of blood will be of no efficacy on our behalf.

 

You can't just say "Jesus is my Savior" and assume that Christ's blood is now covering everything you ever did wrong and ever will do wrong, no matter what.  Christ's bloodshed was a covenant.  You have to enter the covenant to be under the atoning blood.  And as with ALL covenants - it's two sided with conditions.  And the conditions are more than just accepting the covenant.

Edited February 4, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Anakin7]

    1 John 1:7 - But if [ on condition of ] we walk [ by True Faith - pistis = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust in and to The Person of Jesus Christ and his Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice for us] in the light [True Grace], as he is in the light [ the Creator of it], we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus,his son purifies us from all sin.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

So, please cite for me where this formula is stated? Where it specifically specifies how much works it takes to be justified before God?

Mark 13:13 "... but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Are you looking for a specific number of good deeds that you can do and then stop doing them? Are you looking for a quota?

Your good deeds should continue as long as your faith continues. Can you stop having faith once you have had it? or does your faith need to continue? if it needs to continue, how long does it need to continue?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mark 13:13 "... but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Are you looking for a specific number of good deeds that you can do and then stop doing them? Are you looking for a quota?

Your good deeds should continue as long as your faith continues. Can you stop having faith once you have had it? or does your faith need to continue? if it needs to continue, how long does it need to continue?

Excellent point. For Evangelicals salvation seems to be an event. For us it, and it is clear form the scripture you quote is that salvation is a journey. It does not happen all at once. Though I will say that there are events that do happen in people's lives were we do have salvation.

[Anakin7]

 True Belief/Believing has True Obedience as one of its ultimate core behaviours/natures to show one has Truly Accepted/Accessed/Activated True Grace found in the Person and work of Christ Jesus. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7 

[danielwoods]

Absolutely true.  Hebrews 5:9 -And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He gave MANY commandments to be obeyed.  Not everyone that says Lord, Lord (accepts him as Savior) will merit the blessing of his blood.  Those that do his will are the ones exercising faith in the shedding of his blood.  Those who do not his will have no faith in him and are not under the atonement.

 

 

 

Both.  If we don't do as Christ commands, we don't truly accept him as Lord.  And if we don't truly accept him as Lord his shedding of blood will be of no efficacy on our behalf.

 

Obedience isn't what justifies us however. We aren't perfect, even in obedience, hence the need for grace. 

 

In essence we are justified by faith. What type of faith? Not just any faith, but the type of faith that produces works in our lives. Works then is an adjective that identifies what type of faith we are talking about. Works themselves don't justify us, but that type of faith does. Not just any faith justifies us, only that type of faith. For example, I could say that we are talking about a Senior, and it might be any type of Senior until I specify that we are talking about a Senior in High school.

 

You can't just say "Jesus is my Savior" and assume that Christ's blood is now covering everything you ever did wrong and ever will do wrong, no matter what.  Christ's bloodshed was a covenant.  You have to enter the covenant to be under the atoning blood.  And as with ALL covenants - it's two sided with conditions.  And the conditions are more than just accepting the covenant.

 

Either you are correct, or John is. 

 

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

 

It appears to me that Jesus will purify us from all unrighteousness. I'm thinking that all means all. That is of course if one truly puts their full trust in him. 

[JLHPROF]

Obedience isn't what justifies us however. We aren't perfect, even in obedience, hence the need for grace.

 

 Hebrews 5:9 is clear - the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We may not be perfect.  Nobody is arguing that.  But the conditions under which salvation comes IS obedience.  The scripture is clear.  No obedience, no salvation.

 

In essence we are justified by faith. What type of faith? Not just any faith, but the type of faith that produces works in our lives. Works then is an adjective that identifies what type of faith we are talking about. Works themselves don't justify us, but that type of faith does. Not just any faith justifies us, only that type of faith.

 

You really don't see the contradiction in this statement do you?  You attempt to create a division where none actually exists.  You say The type of faith that produces works is what justifies us.  The type of faith that produces no works doesn't justify us.  You said that yourself.

So faith with works justifies us.  Faith without works doesn't.  That's my point.  They are inseparable and it's pure semantics to argue faith alone saves us, because faith that produces no works does nothing for us.

 

You might as well say it's the gasoline that makes us move, not the car.  Faith is the gasoline, works is the car.  Without gasoline (faith) your car (works) is dead and gets you nowhere.  Without the car the gasoline will still burn, but you aren't going anywhere either.  You need the faith (gasoline) to create the works (move the car) to get you to the destination (justification).  Separately, both are worthless and don't even enter the equation.

 

Either you are correct, or John is. 

 

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 

 

That first part and that last part is where the works come in.  See claiming belief alone is NOT faith.  That is the big flaw in the faith only model.

We are required to confess our sins (a work) and when we are forgiven we will be purified from unrighteousness (evidenced by our good works instead of our continuing sins).

 

 

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

 

This is an out of context verse as there are many others in the Bible that require more than just "believing" to become the Children of God.  The key is the first part, not the second - it is how we receive him, how we accept him.  I maintain that to accept Christ as our Lord we have to do the things he commands.  If we don't we haven't actually accepted him.  Merely stating we have is not sufficient.  Yes, accepting Christ is sufficient, but accepting Christ means more than making a statement of faith with no evidence.  Even the devils believe (have faith) but their works are evil.  Faith alone doesn't justify them or us.

Edited February 4, 2015 by JLHPROF

[danielwoods]

Mark 13:13 "... but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Are you looking for a specific number of good deeds that you can do and then stop doing them? Are you looking for a quota?

Your good deeds should continue as long as your faith continues. Can you stop having faith once you have had it? or does your faith need to continue? if it needs to continue, how long does it need to continue?

 

The claim is that works are required for salvation. Yet, this claim is baseless, which is what the question exposes. 

 

Excellent point. For Evangelicals salvation seems to be an event. For us it, and it is clear form the scripture you quote is that salvation is a journey. It does not happen all at once. Though I will say that there are events that do happen in people's lives were we do have salvation.

 

Salvation is an event, sanctification is the life long process or journey.

[danielwoods]

Hebrews 5:9 is clear - the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We may not be perfect.  Nobody is arguing that.  But the conditions under which salvation comes IS obedience.  The scripture is clear.  No obedience, no salvation.

Fortunately that isn't what the scripture says. It does say that those who obey will gain salvation, it doesn't say "no obedience, no salvation." 

 

 

You really don't see the contradiction in this statement do you?  You attempt to create a division where none actually exists.  You say The type of faith that produces works is what justifies us.  The type of faith that produces no works doesn't justify us.  You said that yourself.

So faith with works justifies us.  Faith without works doesn't.  That's my point.  They are inseparable and it's pure semantics to argue faith alone saves us, because faith that produces no works does nothing for us.

 

James states that he will show you his faith, by his works. Why does he say this? Because, faith is what saves us, that is why. The works identify what type of faith he has. 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

 

Salvation is an event, sanctification is the life long process or journey.

 

That's not what Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13 teach - salvation isn't achieved unless we endure to the end.

 

Fortunately that isn't what the scripture says. It does say that those who obey will gain salvation, it doesn't say "no obedience, no salvation."

 

Nice try but it's the same thing.  Those who obey gain salvation, therefore those that don't obey don't gain salvation.  Doesn't get more simple.  And as Matthew said, salvation isn't received/confirmed until the end.

 

James states that he will show you his faith, by his works. Why does he say this? Because, faith is what saves us, that is why. The works identify what type of faith he has. 

 Yes.  Once again, the only type of faith that saves/justifies is the one that produces works.  No works, no justification.  Faith without works is either impossible or useless.

[Flyonthewall]

The claim is that works are required for salvation. Yet, this claim is baseless, which is what the question exposes. 

 

 

Salvation is an event, sanctification is the life long process or journey.

The claim is not baseless it is all over the bible. Faith without works is dead. Period. How long is your faith good for if you stop the works?

Faith without works is only belief - the devils believe also. We are not saved or justified by belief alone but through faith. The difference is the works you do.

What you have difficulty in discerning is when they are talking about works of the Law of Moses and works of faith - such as visiting the sick, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and obedience to His commandments.

What your question does do is showcase your lack of knowledge/understanding of what the scriptures actually teach.

If, as you say, "Salvation is an event", then do you believe in the "Once saved, always saved" gospel?

The OSAS gospel implies there is nothing one can do to lose their salvation once the receive it. They can lie, cheat and steal with impunity because they cannot lose their salvation.

The scriptures never say we only have to endure until we are saved, but we need to endure to the end, then we are saved.

[Anakin7]

   dw Obeying is one of the parts of Belief/Believing for True Salvation as was ingrained in the very Being of the Anchient True Hebrew/Israelites/Saints/Christians Lives in The Holy Scriptures  Again ... http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf   . No antinominianism/gnostic/hellenized salvation meal please but thanks for the offer of passing your plate to us.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 5, 2015 by Anakin7

[thesometimesaint]

We never have to teach newlyweds how to show their love for each other, right? The same is true with our relationship with God. It comes naturally. His relationship with us inspires to do good works by his love and grace. The closer we get to him, the more motivated we are to do his will. 

 

And by way of extending that analogy, the demonstrations of our love are not the reason for the love relationship, rather the love relationship causes the demonstrations of that love. 

 

Actually we do teach newlyweds how to show their love for each other. From birth we are constantly being taught first by our parents, then siblings, then the  community of family, and friends. then the community as a whole.

 

Without those demonstrations of love all types of bad things happen.

SEE

 

There are also human examples, but are rather disturbing so I won't link to them.

[danielwoods]

That's not what Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13 teach - salvation isn't achieved unless we endure to the end.

 

 

Nice try but it's the same thing.  Those who obey gain salvation, therefore those that don't obey don't gain salvation.  Doesn't get more simple.  And as Matthew said, salvation isn't received/confirmed until the end.

 

Matt 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

The verses above don't say we aren't saved until the end. Rather those who stand firm will be saved. It doesn't say you're not saved the day you believe, like countless other verses do say, simply affirming the truth that being faithful to the end means one is also saved. 

 

Yes.  Once again, the only type of faith that saves/justifies is the one that produces works.  No works, no justification.  Faith without works is either impossible or useless.

It doesn't say "no works/no justification" though. You're adding that. IF one has the right type of faith, they are saved/justified right now, at that moment. 

[danielwoods]

The claim is not baseless it is all over the bible. Faith without works is dead. Period. How long is your faith good for if you stop the works?

Faith without works is only belief - the devils believe also. We are not saved or justified by belief alone but through faith. The difference is the works you do.

What you have difficulty in discerning is when they are talking about works of the Law of Moses and works of faith - such as visiting the sick, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and obedience to His commandments.

What your question does do is showcase your lack of knowledge/understanding of what the scriptures actually teach.

If, as you say, "Salvation is an event", then do you believe in the "Once saved, always saved" gospel?

The OSAS gospel implies there is nothing one can do to lose their salvation once the receive it. They can lie, cheat and steal with impunity because they cannot lose their salvation.

The scriptures never say we only have to endure until we are saved, but we need to endure to the end, then we are saved.

 

The type of faith that produces works, is the type of faith that James is talking about. If it was based on how many works one does, then the works would be listed, and James wouldn't have made the statement that he shows his faith by his works. Rather, he'd say he shows his works, which then justifies him. But he didn't say that. 

 

Do I believe in once saved always saved? No. 

[JLHPROF]

 

Matt 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

The verses above don't say we aren't saved until the end. Rather those who stand firm will be saved. It doesn't say you're not saved the day you believe, like countless other verses do say, simply affirming the truth that being faithful to the end means one is also saved. 

 

It doesn't say "no works/no justification" though. You're adding that. IF one has the right type of faith, they are saved/justified right now, at that moment. 

 

You really do have to manipulate the scriptures to get them to say what you want.

If we read exactly what is written it is clear that salvation isn't confirmed until the end, although the process can be started at any point.  It is also clear that true faith without works can't exist so it is pointless to argue which one justifies.  They are the same thing.

[Anakin7]

       dw you do not believe a person can be OSAS ?, neither do True LDS.  To Stay Saved to Enter God's Kingdom one must perform certain True Faith action behavious to Stay Saved by accepting/accessing/ activating Jesus Christs Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice on our behalf. Must and must not's to Enter The Kingdom of God -  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm .  see also Luke 13:23-24/ 1 Peter 4:18.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

Edited February 5, 2015 by Anakin7