Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Calm]

 

 

As to why I'm not Catholic or Orthodox. In general it has to do with my general distrust of people with lots of power and authority over other people. 

So not about whether or not they teach true doctrine?

[danielwoods]

If there is an apostacy, then there must be a restoration.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-22-the-apostasy?lang=eng&query=falling+away

A great apostasy from the Savior’s Church was foretold.

1. Old Testament prophets predicted an apostasy (see Isaiah 24:5–6; Amos 8:11–12).

2. New Testament prophets warned that mankind would turn away from the gospel (see Acts 20:29–30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1–4; 2 Timothy 4:3–4; 2 Peter 2:1–3).

C.

A universal apostasy occurred after the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

1. Early Apostles warned of growing apostasy within the Church (see Galatians 1:6–8; 2 Peter 2:1–3; 1 Corinthians 1:10–12; 11:18–19; 2 Timothy 1:15; Revelation 3:14–16).

2. Latter-day revelation confirms the reality of the Apostasy as foretold by Christ and His Apostles (see Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

 

1) None of the Biblical references above mention a universal apostasy, despite the claim on your link to the LDS site: "A universal apostasy occurred..."  Clearly a misrepresentation. 

 

2) Jesus said he would build his church, there isn't any historical or Biblical reason to believe he didn't do this for the last 2K years. On top of that, the idea that his people would be orphaned or left alone for over a thousand years is quite the opposite of the promises that Jesus made to his church before he left. 

 

3) The falling away is yet to come, which the reference to 2 Thess. 2, details. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

So not about whether or not they teach true doctrine?

 

That is indeed a large issue as well however, I agree with 95% (or so) with Catholic doctrine for example. 

[Freedom]

Jesus was talking to Peter. On the Earth. About building his church, on the Earth. Jesus said, that the gates of hell won't prevail against it. On Earth. There is no reference to a "non-earth" location, because Jesus doesn't build his church anywhere else. Nor is revelation needed anywhere else, but on Earth.

Why do you refuse to explain what the gates of hell are? And why do you insist on corrupting the grammatical construct of the sentence? I could say that water will never prevail against your house. If your house burned down, would I be wrong? The gates of hell has not prevailed against Gods church. God elected on his own to remove it from the earth because there was nobody worthy to maintain it. Rather then letting it get corrupted, he simply removed it and brought it back at a latter time. You are continuing to present an argument without any evidence. You need to explain what the gates of hell is. Is it a banana? Is it a type of aerobic workout?

[Freedom]

That is indeed a large issue as well however, I agree with 95% (or so) with Catholic doctrine for example. 

But I suppose the gates of hell has prevailed against it to such a degree that you refuse to be a member of it. Hmmm

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

 

My apologies if already posted:

 

What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter, as recorded in Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against [my church]”?

Charles Muldowney, professor of comparative religion, Valley Forge Military Academy, and Church public affairs director, Philadelphia Pennsylvania Region. Some Latter-day Saints may wonder how to respond to people of other Christian faiths who find support in Matthew 16:18 for their belief that there would never be a general apostasy.

The Greek word used to denote church in Matthew 16:18 is ecclesia,which literally means a “calling out” and originally referred to a civil assembly. Thus Jesus’ use of the phrase “my church” referred to an assembly “called” by him.

In the present dispensation, the Lord used church in this same sense. He revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that “whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. …

“Behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.” (D&C 10:67, 69.)

In these instances the “church” is not so much an institution as it is a group of individuals who repent, come unto Christ through the ordinances of the gospel, and endure in faith to the end. Upon them the adversary has no claim.

Thus Matthew 16:18–19 does not relate to the continuity of the relationship between Christ and his church organization in time. Instead, the passage refers to the protective and saving bond between Christ and repentant sinners—his sons and daughters—now and throughout eternity. [Matt 16:18–19] (See Mosiah 27:24–29; D&C 138:23.)

The phrase “gates of hell” refers to the place of restriction for the unjust dead. The barrier that separates them from the paradise of the dead is the justice of God. This idea is expressed in the Savior’s parable of the beggar Lazarus. The parable teaches, among other things, that communication between paradise and hell, or spirit prison, is restricted because there is “a great gulf fixed” between the two places. (See Luke 16:19–26.) Lehi and Nephi witnessed a very similar “gulf” in their visions of the tree of life. (See 1 Ne. 8:26; 1 Ne. 15:28–34.) Nephi described it as “a representation of that awful hell. … The justice of God did … divide the wicked from the righteous.” (1 Ne. 15:29–30.)

Jesus’ atonement bridged the gulf and breached the “gates” so that the repentant in prison could be liberated through the vicarious ordinances. The gates of hell could not prevail against them.

Shortly after making the statements recorded in Matthew 16:18–19, Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John. [Matt. 16:18–19] (SeeMatt. 17:1–9.) Of that marvelous occasion, latter-day prophets have said that priesthood keys and sealing power (see Matt. 16:19) were bestowed upon those leading Apostles (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,p. 158; Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1955, 2:110–12).

It is not surprising that Peter, later as senior Apostle, the equivalent of the President of the Church and possessing sacred priesthood keys and sealing power, was the Apostle who clearly spoke of Jesus’ mission to the dead in the spirit world. (See 1 Pet. 3:18–20.) President Harold B. Lee said: “The gates of hell would have prevailed if the gospel had not been taught to the spirits in prison and to those who had not had ample opportunity to receive the gospel here in its fulness. It would have prevailed if there was not a vicarious work for the dead … [or] other vicarious work pertaining to the exaltation which those who accept the gospel might receive, both ordinances for the living and for the dead.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1953, pp. 26–28.)

In this great redemptive work we see the fulfillment of Isaiah’s promise that the Messiah would “bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.” (Isa. 42:7.)

Matthew 16:18–19 [Matt. 16:18–19] sets forth clear and important doctrine, and both verses are best understood in relation to each other and in light of modern revelation. The passage is also a beautiful testimony of Christ’s love—for both the living and the dead. The Apostle Paul provides eloquent summary: “I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

“Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 8:38–39.)

 

 

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/print/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-matthew/chapter-6?lang=eng

 

Matthew 16:18. “The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail against It”

In the scriptures the phrase “the gates of hell” can refer to the powers of death or the powers of evil. Thus, the Savior’s promise that “the gates of hell shall not prevail” means that death and evil will not permanently overpower the Church. The Restoration of the Church in the latter days is one way this promise has been fulfilled. One reason the gates of hell will not prevail is because the keys spoken of in Matthew 16:18–19 are instrumental in “the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living” (D&C 128:11).

President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973) explained that providing temple ordinances for our deceased loved ones is another way of preventing the gates of hell from prevailing against the Lord’s Church: “Now, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Lord’s work if there hadn’t been given the ordinances pertaining to the salvation of those who are dead. During those periods when the priesthood to perform the saving ordinances of the gospel was not upon the earth, there were millions who lived, many of whom were faithful souls. If there hadn’t been a way by which the saving ordinances of the gospel could be performed for those who thus died without the knowledge of the gospel, the gates of hell would have prevailed against our Father’s plan of salvation” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee [2000], 104).

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

Again, your words "restored" are missing from the text in the bible. And again, the plain statement that Jesus would build his church, and has done so from the beginning is exactly what the scripture said. 

 

The Bible is replete with restoration themes.

[danielwoods]

Why do you refuse to explain what the gates of hell are? And why do you insist on corrupting the grammatical construct of the sentence? I could say that water will never prevail against your house. If your house burned down, would I be wrong? The gates of hell has not prevailed against Gods church. God elected on his own to remove it from the earth because there was nobody worthy to maintain it. Rather then letting it get corrupted, he simply removed it and brought it back at a latter time. You are continuing to present an argument without any evidence. You need to explain what the gates of hell is. Is it a banana? Is it a type of aerobic workout?

 

You haven't explained why it matters either. If it won't prevail, it could be a paper airplane. Jesus said he would build his church. The LDS claim that Jesus wasn't able to do that, so a restoration was needed. Jesus didn't mention any other foe or a restoration being needed. As far as evidence, you are right there is none for the supposed apostasy. 

 

But I suppose the gates of hell has prevailed against it to such a degree that you refuse to be a member of it. Hmmm

 

Nope. As I described earlier, corruption. It doesn't mean that anything was lost as the LDS claim. 

[danielwoods]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

 

My apologies if already posted:

 

 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/print/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-matthew/chapter-6?lang=eng

 

 

 

Thanks both those were very informative. 

[ERayR]

 

Nope. As I described earlier, corruption. It doesn't mean that anything was lost as the LDS claim. 

 

Corruption = contaminated - lost.

[Flyonthewall]

1) None of the Biblical references above mention a universal apostasy, despite the claim on your link to the LDS site: "A universal apostasy occurred..."  Clearly a misrepresentation.

In case you did not read Amos 8:11, 12, let me paste it here:

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

This states it explicitly. Why won't they find it? because it is not there.

2) Jesus said he would build his church, there isn't any historical or Biblical reason to believe he didn't do this for the last 2K years. On top of that, the idea that his people would be orphaned or left alone for over a thousand years is quite the opposite of the promises that Jesus made to his church before he left.

We believe He did build His church. His promises were made to the Apostles and so long as they lived, His church was divinely led. It is obvious from the letters written by them that the falling away was already taking place.

 

3) The falling away is yet to come, which the reference to 2 Thess. 2, details.

This sounds like the claim of the Jews - The Messiah has yet to come. They missed Him because they did not recognize Him.

[danielwoods]

In case you did not read Amos 8:11, 12, let me paste it here:

This states it explicitly. Why won't they find it? because it is not there.

We believe He did build His church. His promises were made to the Apostles and so long as they lived, His church was divinely led. It is obvious from the letters written by them that the falling away was already taking place.

 

This sounds like the claim of the Jews - The Messiah has yet to come. They missed Him because they did not recognize Him.

 

Your Amos quote sounds similar to what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 

 

The claim that the word of God wasn't found on the earth until it was restored by the LDS is disproven by the fact that the word of God was preached all through the world at the time JS was searching for the "true church". 

 

Let's look at 2 Thessalonians 2:

 

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

 

Notice a couple things. These events are contemporary with "our being gathered to him". Have they happened yet? No. Two, the "rebellion" and the man of lawlessness is revealed before the day of the lord comes. Has either happened yet? No. Three, the man of lawlessness will set himself up in God's temple, proclaiming to be God. God's temple at that time was obviously in Jerusalem. Has that happened yet? No.

 

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

A couple of things to notice here too. Who is holding the man of lawlessness back? I believe it's the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way, the lawless one will be revealed. Has this happened yet? No. 

The Lawless one will display signs and wonders. Has this happened yet? No. 

 

IF you want to claim all this already happened, then who was the Lawless one? And when did all this happen? What signs and wonders did he display? 

Edited January 19, 2015 by danielwoods

[Flyonthewall]

Your Amos quote sounds similar to what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 

 

The claim that the word of God wasn't found on the earth until it was restored by the LDS is disproven by the fact that the word of God was preached all through the world at the time JS was searching for the "true church". 

 

Let's look at 2 Thessalonians 2:

 

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

 

Notice a couple things. These events are contemporary with "our being gathered to him". Have they happened yet? No. Two, the "rebellion" and the man of lawlessness is revealed before the day of the lord comes. Has either happened yet? No. Three, the man of lawlessness will set himself up in God's temple, proclaiming to be God. God's temple at that time was obviously in Jerusalem. Has that happened yet? No.

 

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

A couple of things to notice here too. Who is holding the man of lawlessness back? I believe it's the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way, the lawless one will be revealed. Has this happened yet? No. 

The Lawless one will display signs and wonders. Has this happened yet? No. 

 

IF you want to claim all this already happened, then who was the Lawless one? And when did all this happen? What signs and wonders did he display?

Notice that those things that you point out will not come until a falling away happens first. The falling away has already happened, and the other events are unfolding even today until the culmination with the 2nd coming.

Edited to add:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-eight-gathering-to-ohio?lang=eng

Not all that happened at the conference was good. As it had happened in previous months, a manifestation of evil spirits appeared. Church historian John Whitmer related that “the devil took a notion, to make known his power.”36Horrid noises shrieked through the meeting, and several men were thrown around violently by evil spirits. Harvey Green was thrown on the floor in convulsions. The Prophet laid hands upon him and cast out an evil spirit. Harvey Whitlock and John Murdock were bound so they could not speak. Joseph Smith said that all of this was a fulfillment of the scriptures stating that the “man of sin” would be revealed (see 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The Prophet saw the design of Satan and commanded him in the name of Christ to depart, which he did to the “joy and comfort” of those present.37These early experiences in Kirtland served as a warning to all Saints to avoid tampering with evil spirits and to avoid excessive spiritual zeal.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Flyonthewall

[danielwoods]

Notice that those things that you point out will not come until a falling away happens first. The falling away has already happened, and the other events are unfolding even today until the culmination with the 2nd coming.

Edited to add:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-eight-gathering-to-ohio?lang=eng

Not all that happened at the conference was good. As it had happened in previous months, a manifestation of evil spirits appeared. Church historian John Whitmer related that “the devil took a notion, to make known his power.”36Horrid noises shrieked through the meeting, and several men were thrown around violently by evil spirits. Harvey Green was thrown on the floor in convulsions. The Prophet laid hands upon him and cast out an evil spirit. Harvey Whitlock and John Murdock were bound so they could not speak. Joseph Smith said that all of this was a fulfillment of the scriptures stating that the “man of sin” would be revealed (see 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The Prophet saw the design of Satan and commanded him in the name of Christ to depart, which he did to the “joy and comfort” of those present.37These early experiences in Kirtland served as a warning to all Saints to avoid tampering with evil spirits and to avoid excessive spiritual zeal.

 

So who is the man of lawlessness? 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So who is the man of lawlessness? 

He just told you. It was Satan.

[Flyonthewall]

So who is the man of lawlessness?

Do you not know who the man of lawlessness is? The son of Perdition?

If you were looking for more of a production associated with it, then you will need to wait for the 2nd coming -

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[theplains]

How so?  The church was taken from the earth, not destroyed.   The restoration of the Church was and is the ultimate victory over the devil.

 

See this image from the actual manual. It says the Church was destroyed (past tense).

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Vance]

See this image from the actual manual. It says the Church was destroyed (past tense).

 

Thanks,

Jim

Semantics.  According to Revelation 12 the woman(church) fled into the wilderness to return at a later date.

 

 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

  2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

  3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

  4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

  5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

  6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

  . . . . .

  13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

  14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

  15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

  16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

  17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 . . .

 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

Does is really matter whether you say the Church on the earth was taken away or destroyed?  Either way, it was gone from the earth, and needed to be restored.

 

And it was restored, See Rev 14,

 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

[danielwoods]

He just told you. It was Satan.

 

Actually it can't be Satan. 

 

Do you not know who the man of lawlessness is? The son of Perdition?

If you were looking for more of a production associated with it, then you will need to wait for the 2nd coming -

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

He comes "after the working of Satan" meaning he's not satan, rather he's a man, yet to be revealed, and he will claim to be God and do so in the Jerusalem temple. 

[Freedom]

You haven't explained why it matters either. If it won't prevail, it could be a paper airplane. Jesus said he would build his church. The LDS claim that Jesus wasn't able to do that, so a restoration was needed. Jesus didn't mention any other foe or a restoration being needed. As far as evidence, you are right there is none for the supposed apostasy. 

 

 

Nope. As I described earlier, corruption. It doesn't mean that anything was lost as the LDS claim. 

It matters because if you don't know what it is, then you don't know what it means. If is were a paper airplane, then all Jesus is saying is that paper airplanes will not prevail against the Rock. Big deal. So the only safety the rock has is that paper airplanes will not cause it harm. of course, Jesus mentions a host of other harms such as fornication, hypocrisy, false accusations and so forth. These other ills, since they are not paper planes, can prevail against the rock. And corruption is not a loss? Are you kidding me? The church became corrupt but this is perfectly ok? Right, because no paper airplanes have prevailed against it. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Actually it can't be Satan. 

 

 

 

You have convinced me. What a compelling argument.

 

The reality is that you would not know it was even if we told you. It really is a diversion tactic. The problem for you is that you are claiming that the church will never leave while acknowledging that at some point it will leave it just didn't yet. How do you know it has not left?

 

Furthermore what Vance quoted makes it quite clear that the church will not be found on the earth of an extended period of time. And at some future point an Angel with the gospel will come to preach it to those on earth. Why would it need to be preach to us on earth if it was always here?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[danielwoods]

It matters because if you don't know what it is, then you don't know what it means. If is were a paper airplane, then all Jesus is saying is that paper airplanes will not prevail against the Rock. Big deal. So the only safety the rock has is that paper airplanes will not cause it harm. of course, Jesus mentions a host of other harms such as fornication, hypocrisy, false accusations and so forth. These other ills, since they are not paper planes, can prevail against the rock. And corruption is not a loss? Are you kidding me? The church became corrupt but this is perfectly ok? Right, because no paper airplanes have prevailed against it. 

 

Like I said it could be anything. You think you *know* what it is, and maybe you do, maybe you don't. I don't think it matters. The key to understand is that Jesus will build his church. His church will be built. If you think that sins you listed, will stop Jesus from building his church, then by all means present the evidence that this is the case. Jesus still claims he will build his church. 

 

Corruption is not a loss from a textual standpoint. As Luther, Wycliff and others stood against the corruption, the truth remained, as did the Church that Jesus was building then, and even today, Jesus is still building his Church. 

[ERayR]

Actually it can't be Satan. 

 

 

He comes "after the working of Satan" meaning he's not satan, rather he's a man, yet to be revealed, and he will claim to be God and do so in the Jerusalem temple. 

 

Well that definitely leaves out Joseph Smith.  He didn't get to the Jerusalem Temple.

[ERayR]

Like I said it could be anything. You think you *know* what it is, and maybe you do, maybe you don't. I don't think it matters. The key to understand is that Jesus will build his church. His church will be built. If you think that sins you listed, will stop Jesus from building his church, then by all means present the evidence that this is the case. Jesus still claims he will build his church. 

 

Corruption is not a loss from a textual standpoint. As Luther, Wycliff and others stood against the corruption, the truth remained, as did the Church that Jesus was building then, and even today, Jesus is still building his Church. 

 

His Church has been built and is growing.

 

You certainly have a strange view of corruption.

Edited January 20, 2015 by ERayR