Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[coolrok7]

Jesus and John gives the following warnings:

 

 

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You will know them by their fruits. . . (Matthew 7:15-16a)

 

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . .the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1, 6b)

 

We as Evangelicals, after having been approached, usually at the doorstep but in other ways as well, come to you or others such as Jehovah's Witnesses after having been invited to do so.

 

Prior to this we had already been addressed by both groups as being heretical, apostate, teachers of false doctrine by your/their own leaders, beginning with Joseph Smith and Charles Taze Russell. We respond with the truth of Biblical teaching to the false charges brought against us as believers in Jesus Christ:

 

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place--a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ's Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.". . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of Messiah's true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . .(APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

 

Now, at the present time, the true Christian congregation has been recovered from the apostasy that enshrouded the Middle Ages in spiritual darkness. Just as Israel was returned to its land in 537 B.C.E. by King Cyrus of Persia, so Jehovah has used his reigning King Jesus Christ to bring the modern-day Christian congregation into a spiritually prosperous condition. (Isaiah 1:25-27) The true doctrines have been restored concerning God's name, the position of his Son Jesus Christ, the kingdom of God, the ransom, resurrection and others. The false doctrines of Trinity, hellfire, immortality of the human soul and others have been exposed as unscriptural. The preaching of the good news of the kingdom is being done worldwide. . . .As to knowledge, God has provided his entire Word, which can be possessed in printed form by the most humble person. Its use can make the man of God fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) (The Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1971, p.503)

 
 

This thread is for Evangelicals to answer the thread question, "Can a Mormon be a Christian?" My answer again would be not unless the "MORMON CHURCH" gives up the false teaching of Joseph Smith (led by the spirit of error). His teachings are to be tested by Biblical teaching, no different than anyone else that comes with similar claims.

 

As an individual I of course speak for myself as I will be judged based on what I, not others believe. This also is to be tested by Biblical Scripture. I will be addressing this in my following posts using Biblical statements to express what I actually believe, not what others say I believe.

Edited February 1, 2015 by coolrok7

[Bobbieaware]

You are correct, and I don't think I claimed otherwise. The concept that any of our works justify us isn't found in scripture. You are free to quote some you know about. The law of moses is what they had at the time. Now we have christ, and as paul states:

Philippians 3:7-9

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ

9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,

Notice "not having mine own righteousness" we aren't justified by our own righteousness ever, no matter how you slice it. Only Christ's and that is through faith.

It is a doctrine of the LDS Scriptures that men are not justified by their own works or their by own righteousness. Nevertheless, the God of the Latter-day Saints commands His followers to always repent, grow in grace and knowledge, multiply their God-given talents, obey the beatitudes, overcome the world by faith through the power of the Spirit, and take full advantage of the transformative power of Christ's atonement. While it's true that when we're engaged in this divinely ordained and empowered process of spiritual growth we will never meet God's perfect standard of righteousness, even so He expects us to be willing to nurture an attitude of being willing to "labor more abundantly than they all," but while doing so realizing that the labor He commands us to perform is only made achievable by the grace of God that is within us.

Our scriptures teach the Latter-day Saints that we are justified (forgiven) by grace and sanctified (empowered by the Spirit to live lives of true holiness) by grace as well. The Latter-day Saints don't believe in making a single profession of faith in Christ and then fatuously sitting on our backsides for the rest of our lives without a sincere and earnest intention to always strive to spiritually improve. We believe that the mansions of heaven are filled with lazy Christians who are saved but were unwilling to receive the fullness of eternal reward promised to the faithful who overcome the world by enduring to the end through living faith in Christ. We believe it's a great sin of ingratitude to "do despite to the Spirit of grace" by not taking full advantage of the great program of spiritual growth that has been made available to us by Christ's unselfish and holy sacrifice of infinite and eternal spiritual pain and agony.

I wonder if you're ever going to arrive at the point when you finally acknowledge that the Latter-day Saints -- in spite of your most assiduous efforts -- aren't going to give up on taking very seriously the commandment to continue in a lifelong process spiritual growth and improvement through Christ? It is not enough to just believe if one hopes to obtain the "more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" of which Paul spoke. As the Saviour Himself said, it is only those who overcome by pressing ever forward toward the mark of true holiness and spirituality who will ever have the right to "sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame and am sat down with my Father in His throne."

The Gospel of Christ isn't just about receiving a remission of sins, it is also about utilizing the power and gifts of a God -- only made available to us by the infinite and eternal sufferings of Christ -- to live the kind of life God wants us to live so that we can be happy. There is no joy in spiritual imperfection; and faith without spiritually inspired works is dead. A professed Christian can make all the professions of faith he wants, but unless he's actually walking the walk of true holiness, his professions are nothing but dead works.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Anakin7]

     In regard to those showing statements regarding the state of Christianity in the past by past LDS statements/writtings shall we remind those of you concerning the colorfull metaphor's used by Martin Luther [Verbal/Written] one of the Reformers [Along with other reformers as well] concerning the apostate state of the  Roman Catholic Church as he/they saw/viewed them ?. It goes both ways.Beams/Motes again.

Read [Not skim over] my links in Post #3075. May True Grace be  Accepted/Accessed/Activated by True Faith Be by you all.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 2, 2015 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

It is a doctrine of the LDS Scriptures that men are not justified by their own works or their by own righteousness. Nevertheless....

The Gospel of Christ isn't just about receiving a remission of sins, it is also about utilizing the power and gifts of a God -- only made available to us by the infinite and eternal sufferings of Christ -- to live the kind of life God wants us to live so that we can be happy. There is no joy in spiritual imperfection; and faith without spiritually inspired works is dead. A professed Christian can make all the professions of faith he wants, but unless he's actually walking the walk of true holiness, his professions are nothing but dead works.

 

What I don't want to do is talk past each other, which is why I try and focus on the concept of justification. What is it that exactly justifies us before God? The answer, and I think we agree, is Christ alone. 

 

Which is what you said above, but you followed it with the word, "Nevertheless" which means we agree, but there other factors that you consider equally important to mention. 

 

Then your final point was that the Gospel of Christ isn't just about the remission of sins, but utilizing the power and gifts of God. 

 

I'm not sure I agree or disagree. It depends on what you mean. I would say it a little differently. 

 

I would say that the Gospel of Christ is all about reconciliation with God. The one thing that separates us from relationship with him, is sin. That relationship connection to him contains all we need for life and godliness in this life and the next. 

[Freedom]

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

WE can play the quote the bible game. The law is irrefutably referring to the law of moses. We are not justified by simply following the strict requirements of the law of moses or any other law. Faith is an action. We exercise faith when we obey the commandments trusting that God will justify us through the atonement. 

[Anakin7]

    We are Justified when we Accept/Access/Activate Jesus Christ Atonement [Grace- charis] by keeping The Law of Faith [pistis] Rom 3:27-28 NASB.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

WE can play the quote the bible game. The law is irrefutably referring to the law of moses. We are not justified by simply following the strict requirements of the law of moses or any other law. Faith is an action. We exercise faith when we obey the commandments trusting that God will justify us through the atonement.

 

It certainly isn't a game to me. I'm not sure why you'd characterize like that? 

 

The whole paragraph states is slightly different than how you did. If you don't mind I will quote the whole paragraph. And no I'm not playing a game.

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

 

 

You stated that, "We exercise faith when we obey the commandments….". The paragraph above states it slightly differently. And I think this difference huge when understood. The difference is we exercise faith when we believe, and at that point we are justified. In your view we are justified by faith, when we obey the commandments. In the statement above, we are justified by faith which isn't based on our obedience, rather God's grace alone because the law demonstrates our sinful nature which prevents perfect obedience to commandments.

 

Notice the statement, "apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known". Our justification is completely based 100% on Christ's work on the cross. It isn't based on our obedience to any law or any commandment. Rather, it is received by faith. 

[JLHPROF]

 

Notice the statement, "apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known". Our justification is completely based 100% on Christ's work on the cross. It isn't based on our obedience to any law or any commandment. Rather, it is received by faith. 

 

Yes, apart from the Law of Moses, not apart from any commandment.  Christ said clearly that only those who loved him would be saved and he said only those who kept his commandments loved him.  There are absolutely commandments connected to our justification.  But no, we aren't saved by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Christ.

John 14 shoots holes all through the faith only argument.

Edited February 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[coolrok7]

Freedom, it's not a game but serious discussion concerning Scriptural teaching over which one's salvation depends!

[KevinG]

I interrupt this discussion for a small commercial break...

 

[coolrok7]

No, I don't do that. I studied Mormonism within its own walls and by reading from official teaching materials by those who hold the Mormon priesthood.

Edited February 3, 2015 by coolrok7

[danielwoods]

Yes, apart from the Law of Moses, not apart from any commandment.  Christ said clearly that only those who loved him would be saved and he said only those who kept his commandments loved him.  There are absolutely commandments connected to our justification.  But no, we aren't saved by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Christ.

John 14 shoots holes all through the faith only argument.

 

let's do it this way then. You quote for me where it states that we are justified by keeping a commandment, that our justification before God is based on keeping a commandment. 

[KevinG]

No, I don't do that. I studied Mormonism within its own walls and by reading from official teaching materials by those who hold the Mormon priesthood.

 

Great then it doesn't apply to you.  No comment necessary.

[JLHPROF]

let's do it this way then. You quote for me where it states that we are justified by keeping a commandment, that our justification before God is based on keeping a commandment. 

 

James 2:18-26  (Maybe that's why Luther wanted it removed from the Bible)

John 14:12-15

 

Now, you can claim that James still taught justification by faith but that without works as fruits of faith that faith is dead.

That might even be true.  But that still means that without the works your faith is dead and doesn't justify you.  It's just semantics to say otherwise.  Nobody was ever saved by faith WITHOUT works, because it cannot exist.

 

So you can claim it is faith that justifies us.  I say that means absolutely nothing because you cannot have faith without works, they are inseparable, joined together, so you can equally say it is works that justify us.

 

It misrepresents Mormonism to say we believe we can earn our way into heaven by our works.  Mormons believe in grace just as much as any other Christian religion.  We just acknowledge that works are connected and cannot be removed.  Nobody is saved by grace alone, because there is no such thing as grace without works.

Edited February 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Anakin7]

       True Salvation is a Past Present Future Journey/ From a Catholic Brother - http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm

 

       In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                    Anakin7

Edited February 3, 2015 by Anakin7

[blooit]

James 2:18-26  (Maybe that's why Luther wanted it removed from the Bible)

John 14:12-15

 

Now, you can claim that James still taught justification by faith but that without works as fruits of faith that faith is dead.

That might even be true.  But that still means that without the works your faith is dead and doesn't justify you.  It's just semantics to say otherwise.  Nobody was ever saved by faith WITHOUT works, because it cannot exist.

 

So you can claim it is faith that justifies us.  I say that means absolutely nothing because you cannot have faith without works, they are inseparable, joined together, so you can equally say it is works that justify us.

 

It misrepresents Mormonism to say we believe we can earn our way into heaven by our works.  Mormons believe in grace just as much as any other Christian religion.  We just acknowledge that works are connected and cannot be removed.  Nobody is saved by grace alone, because there is no such thing as grace without works.

 

Well said

[danielwoods]

James 2:18-26  (Maybe that's why Luther wanted it removed from the Bible)

John 14:12-15

 

Now, you can claim that James still taught justification by faith but that without works as fruits of faith that faith is dead.

That might even be true.  But that still means that without the works your faith is dead and doesn't justify you.  It's just semantics to say otherwise.  Nobody was ever saved by faith WITHOUT works, because it cannot exist.

 

So you can claim it is faith that justifies us.  I say that means absolutely nothing because you cannot have faith without works, they are inseparable, joined together, so you can equally say it is works that justify us.

 

First let's look at James:

 

James 1:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Now, you claim that one "cannot have faith without works, they are inseparable, joined together, so you can equally say it is works that justify us."

 

First, is this what James is claiming? Notice the reference to Abraham, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." What is James claiming that justifies us? It's God and belief in God that justifies us. It's credited to us as righteousness. Then James makes a statement that is probably misunderstood. "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." Why is that, and what does he mean? Well, James explains his point, by his examples, that show that a saving faith and trust in God compels a person to do things that God wants us to do. It's not that the works of faith are efficacious in saving us or justifying us before God, rather it's a fruit or a natural result of authentic faith in God. How do we know this? The way we know this is because there is no statement of how much works or how many deeds are necessary to save us. This point is brought to a sharper focus in the next reference.

 

John 14:11-15

 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. 15 “If you love me, keep my commands.

 

You might notice that I went back one verse before the quote that you referenced, because in verse 11 Jesus explains that works are the evidence of what is going on in the spirit. The works aren't actually the source, but are evidence that the source exists. So with regard to being justified before God, the works that James mentions are simply the evidence of the faith that justifies us before God. 

 

It misrepresents Mormonism to say we believe we can earn our way into heaven by our works.  Mormons believe in grace just as much as any other Christian religion.  We just acknowledge that works are connected and cannot be removed.  Nobody is saved by grace alone, because there is no such thing as grace without works.

 

I think that confusion reigns on this issue, and your statement above is an example of why. First you state that you don't earn your way to heaven, then you say that no one is saved by grace alone. Well which is it? 

 

This is why I try and focus on justification. What is it that justifies us before God?  As we can see in the passages above, works are simply the evidence of the faith that saves us. No amount of works will ever justify us before God, only saving faith in Christ does that.

Edited February 4, 2015 by danielwoods

[JLHPROF]

 

 

This is why I try and focus on justification. What is it that justifies us before God?  As we can see in the passages above, works are simply the evidence of the faith that saves us. No amount of works will ever justify us before God, only saving faith in Christ does that.

 

You might as well ask which makes water, the hydrogen or the oxygen?

[danielwoods]

You might as well ask which makes water, the hydrogen or the oxygen?

 

Your position is that faith and works are inseparable, to the point that you claim that works save us. Then why is it that no where in the bible does it tell us how many works it takes to justify us? You'd think that if it was works that actually justified us before God, that God would tell us how much it takes, don't you? 

[Anakin7]

     True Saving Faith [ pistis =  Allegiance/Commitment/Confidence/Dedication/Devotian/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust] that Accepts/Accesses/Activates True Grace.  Please do not confuse us doing self rightious works with Labors of Love to serve our God and fellow man.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    A word from one of our Catholic Christian Brothers responding to Salvation/Merit criticisms - http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/merit.html

 

    In Huis Debt/Grace

           Anakin7

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anakin7

[Tacenda]

Your position is that faith and works are inseparable, to the point that you claim that works save us. Then why is it that no where in the bible does it tell us how many works it takes to justify us? You'd think that if it was works that actually justified us before God, that God would tell us how much it takes, don't you?

I know, and with Mormonism it's all that you can do. What if some just think well that's all I can do now and others think I can never do enough, probably the reason they run into some mental issues. Where if you come to the faith as EV's do and have that personal relationship because you've been saved, works are suppose to come naturally. But I have to admit I don't have that yet but have seen it on shows etc. and it's a little strange to me. But they truly take Him upon themselves and its all about Him from then on. Almost like a lover, so I wonder if they don't work very hard at other relationships.

[Anakin7]

    John 6: 28-29 - Then they asked him, "what must we do to do the works that God requires ?. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent".

 

    NIV footnote for John 6:29 - work of God. Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for - the one that leads to eternal life.

 

    From my understanding True Anchient Belief/Faith come from the same root greek word from which denotes action on the part of the individual.

 

    In His Debt/Grace

           Anakin7

[ERayR]

No, I don't do that. I studied Mormonism within its own walls and by reading from official teaching materials by those who hold the Mormon priesthood.

 

The problem is you are interpreting your Mormon studies in a traditional christian paradigm. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Your position is that faith and works are inseparable, to the point that you claim that works save us. Then why is it that no where in the bible does it tell us how many works it takes to justify us? You'd think that if it was works that actually justified us before God, that God would tell us how much it takes, don't you? 

He never said that. You cannot be saved with our works alone. Mere belief, i.e. "faith" wont save you alone. Only faith coupled with works saves you.

 

You are engaging in a semantics game.

 

Hydrogen alone is just hydrogen. But when you add 2 molecules of hydrogen (faith) with one molecule of oxygen (works) you get water (salvation).