Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

In the following except from the Book of Revelation, it's important to keep in mind that the Laodicean saints, to whom the Saviour is speaking, are true believers in Christ. The Lord makes it perfectly clear that in spite of their faith in Him he is dissatisfied with the strength and genuineness of their walk unto sanctification and true holiness. The Lord then warns these believers that they must understand they are in serious jeopardy because they are failing in their quest toward obtaining full sanctification, and are called upon to demonstrate sincere repentance by renouncing their failures and thereafter redoubling their faithful efforts in mightily striving, by the Spirit, to becoming fervent and fully zealous in pursuit of true holiness.

 

To these spiritually derailed saints, the Lord then issues a simultaneous promise and solemn warning: IF they truly repent of their sorry state of spiritual lethargy, and ultimately succeed by means His gracious help (i.e. the gifts and power of God), they will be granted the unsurpassed gift of being permitted to be seated as kings and priests upon the throne of His eternal power and authority, even as He overcame (fullness of sanctification) and was thereby granted the right to be seated upon the Father's throne of eternal power and authority. In these verses there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that those who fail to fully and properly repent, and for this reason fail to succeed in overcoming the world, will by any means be granted the right to be seated upon the throne of Christ with those who actually do succeed in overcoming.

 

Bottom line? some of the saved will receive greater rewards for their faithfulness than will those who are also saved but neglect God's call to apprehend the fullness of the eternal blessings bestowed upon the willing by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ, by faithfully taking full advantage of their opportunities in Christ.

 

 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first thing I notice is that no where does it state what you claimed. That, "Those justified individuals who fail in this regard (the pursuit of full sanctification) will be servants in the kingdom but will not be granted the right to obtain the thorne."

 

 

The second thing is, yes I agree that there will be different degrees of rewards. We will sit with him on his throne, with him. Whether this is a literal thing or figurative, I don't know. Jesus did say that the greatest among you will be the servant of all. Which could also apply to our heavenly state, meaning all will serve each other, as God serves us and all the world everyday. 

[Anakin7]

    coolrok7 thank you for your thought/post. It is your choice to reject my posts that use evangelical language to explain/support True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice Walk and links to non LDS sites that support True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice Walk. Ignor them as you wish but I have not read any critique or response from you as to error on the sites from you that I post. Joseph Smith stated that we must gather up all truth from wherever the source or we will not come out true Mormons [ paraphrase]. And your never ending polemics have been responded to adinfinentum.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

I really don'care what Joseph Smith says as he's not a true prophet of God in that he twists and rewrites Biblical Scripture to justify his teaching.

I'm beholden to Scripture, not necessarily to any so called Evangelical website you can link to.

Remember, this thread is for Evangelicals to answer the thread question.

Edited February 13, 2015 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

   Coolrok7 thank you for your Christlike Charitable response [i do care for you].  Busybodies/Pratters come to my mind along with Motes and Beams in scripture. I will pray for you. And I will continue to link to Pro LDS and non LDS sites that support True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run. Moderators please forgive coolrok7 for he knows not what he posts [ See his post # 3178 ].

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited February 14, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

I'm sure the moderators can do their job without your running to them when you don't like what is being said. I don't like what you say often but you are entitled to your view as I am.

 

We as Evangelicals were asked the thread question which is not a mote and beams issue which you falsely accuse me of all the time. I don't believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God based on what he taught in the rewriting of Biblical Scripture. The evidence is there to back that up.

 

Mormon missionaries, sent by the President of the Church over the years, have come by and said things I know are not true and have made false claims against what I believe in the literature provided by them. I'm responding to this in the points I've been making.

[Anakin7]

    coolrok thank you again for your polemical thoughtfull posts. I am not running to anyone [more busybody/pratter statements], and yes they will decide [moderators] if your posts deserve a ban as they have in the past when you have been banned a # of times. And there have been adinfinentum/endless responses to your polemics. And we have evidence to show that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God. Must go to work now have a nice day.

 

Salvation Is Absolutly Free, But It Will Cost You Your Very Life.

                                 In His Debt/Grace

                                         Anakin7

[Teancum]

It's Scripture alone, Faith alone, Grace alone which go together to explain the Biblical teaching of salvation not of works but by grace through faith. Get it right Anakin7.

This not a denial of having good works as we are created in Christ Jesus for good works.

The problem in Mormonism is their disobedience in going after Joseph Smith, the founding false prophet, which teaches meriting one's salvation in the requirement of temple ordinances which was never an apostolic teaching.

 

 

 

 

I think the apostle Paul was likely a false prophet.  His teachings are nothing like found in almost all three of the synoptic gospels and perhaps not even John.  He says nothing about Jesus life in the writings we have in the Bible by him as well as the writings in the Bible that claim to be by him but were not.

 

Paul was an enemy to early Christianity and then converted.  Perhaps his conversion was as subterfuge and he was destroying the truth of Christianity from inside the ranks.   Also Paul's gospel conflicted greatly with Peter and James as well as some of the other competing Christian sects of early Christianity.  

[Bobbieaware]

I think the apostle Paul was likely a false prophet. His teachings are nothing like found in almost all three of the synoptic gospels and perhaps not even John. He says nothing about Jesus life in the writings we have in the Bible by him as well as the writings in the Bible that claim to be by him but were not.

Paul was an enemy to early Christianity and then converted. Perhaps his conversion was as subterfuge and he was destroying the truth of Christianity from inside the ranks. Also Paul's gospel conflicted greatly with Peter and James as well as some of the other competing Christian sects of early Christianity.

A little scripture.study goes a long way. The apostle Peter himself, in his second general epistle, declared to the entire New Testament church that Paul was a true apostle, that he and Paul were "on the same page" doctrinally speaking, and that Paul was a beloved member of the church leadership. But Peter did go on to say that while Paul's teachings were true they were also difficult to understand. Not surprisingly, Peter went on further to say that Paul's teachings were being seized upon and twisted by some unlearned and unstable church members of that day to mean God granted them the right to continue on in willful sin with impunity. So if the Bible is to be believed, your suppositions about Paul are incorrect.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[coolrok7]

Post # 13 was my first response in answering Blooit's question which he summed up in his post #4: . . .As a Mormon, what must I do to be a Christian?" In response to your, Anakin7's post #2 reference to Galatians. 

 

I referenced Paul giving an answer to the Phillipian jailers question (Acts 16): what must I do to be saved?" The answer: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

 

It would Biblically follow then that having another Jesus/another or different gospel than the one Paul had already preached that Mormons would have to give up the another Jesus preached by Joseph Smith because it was delivered by an angel in which Paul had warned about in Galatians. Paul has more to say on this in 2 Corinthians 11.

 

The Gospel itself is what gets distorted beyond Christianity in Mormonism.

[Teancum]

A little scripture.study goes a long way. The apostle Peter himself, in his second general epistle, declared to the entire New Testament church that Paul was a true apostle, that he and Paul were "on the same page" doctrinally speaking, and that Paul was a beloved member of the church leadership. But Peter did go on to say that while Paul's teachings were true they were also difficult to understand. Not surprisingly, Peter went on further to say that Paul's teachings were being seized upon and twisted by some unlearned and unstable church members of that day to mean God granted them the right to continue on in willful sin with impunity. So if the Bible is to be believed, your suppositions about Paul are incorrect.

 

 

I am absolutely well aware of the passages you reference.  However a little study outside the scripture goes a long way as well.....

[Teancum]

 

 

The Gospel itself is what gets distorted beyond Christianity in Mormonism.

 

The gospel itself gets distorted when you rely only on Paul and 15th century reformed theology.

[coolrok7]

What would you say the Biblical Gospel is Teancum? I rely on what the Bible in  totality teaches. You've already written yourself off as a believer, why should I trust what you say?

Edited February 14, 2015 by coolrok7

[Teancum]

What would you say the Biblical Gospel is Teancum? I rely on what the Bible in  totality teaches. You've already written yourself off as a believer, why should I trust what you say?

 

 

I do not think there was ever one biblical gospel Cookrok.

 

And you should not trust what I say. But you can do some leg work and study what reputable scholars say on this.

 

And no you really don't rely on what the Bible teaches in totality. You rely on the interpretation of what the Bible says based on reformed Christian theology which started being established 1500 years after Jesus. 

 

And who says the Bible is the Ultimate Authority?  Really who?  Why the Bible itself with a reformed theological spin!  Very convenient.

[Bobbieaware]

I am absolutely well aware of the passages you reference.  However a little study outside the scripture goes a long way as well.....

It's hard to imagine a source more reliable than the stated views of Peter himself. Are your sources contemporaneous with Peter's ministry? Did your sources disregard Peter's comments as they formed their opinions? Or do your sources simply not believe 2nd Peter is authentic?

[Anakin7]

       Good works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation for faith alone gives life - Martin Luther.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

               Anakin7

Edited February 15, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    An LDS Lay member research on comparing Martin Luther and Joseph Smith Jr on "Good Works" and what they do - see    

http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited February 15, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, my post of 3175 explains my position that gets distorted here constantly. Joseph Smith distorted the Biblical teaching which is what his followers do.

 

I've never said a "Mormon" cannot be saved (providing they truly believe the Biblical teaching concerning salvation, saved by grace through faith not of works), I've always maintained that Mormonism will not save them, only belief in Christian Biblical doctrine will which is faith in the truth of the Word of God. Not the teaching of an 1830's false prophet.

 

Not only him but others from the same century. Mary Baker Eddy, Charles taze Rusell, etc. followed by others in the 1900's teaching essentially the same things: nobody ever knew the truth until (insert name) a particular, chosen by God, person came on the scene.

 

(in my post 3175 I had faith in the list of the four other solas along with faith, it should be grace)

Edited February 15, 2015 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

    coolrok7 thank you, Yes True Grace accepted,accessed,activated by True Faith - Amen.

 

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                Anakin7

Edited February 16, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    LDS Teach a different Gospel than the one preached by Paul ?, pray tell. Our Shield of True Faith against the fiery arrows of the used against us - http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/different_gospel.htm  No antinomianism in our Kingdom.

 

    In His Debt/Grace

           Anakin7

Edited February 16, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Yes, you can never pay the debt, Anakin7, "pray tell", the Mormon Gospel is another/different Gospel than the one preached by Paul (not the one delivered by a lying angel). Also see 1 Peter 1, the whole chapter:

 

. . .I declare unto you the gospel which I preached. . .By which you are also saved. . .for I delivered. . .how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. . .he was buried. . .he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God had before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

Not the following:

 

. . .God himself was once a man as we are now and is an exalted man, . . .(History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

 

As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be"--Lorenzo Snow

 

The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could advance like himself. . . .(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354) 

 

Our Heavenly Parents. . .applied in Their lives. . .these everlasting laws. . .become subject unto Elohim. . .were his laws--or, in other words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, pp.4, 51)

Edited February 16, 2015 by coolrok7

[coolrok7]

This in part is how Joseph Smith attempted to subvert Biblical Scripture in the JST:

 

2   For if Abraham were justified by a law of works, he hath glory in himself; but not of God.

4   Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

5   But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth

on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6   Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth

righteousness without the law of works,

7   Saying blessed are they through faith whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins

are covered.

16 Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the

promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them

also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

KJV

 

2   For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof

to glory; but not before God.

4   Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt,

5   But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,

his faith is counted for righteousness.

6   Even as David also desribeththe blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth

righteousness without works,

7   Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might

be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of

the faith of Abraham.

 

[Flyonthewall]

This in part is how Joseph Smith attempted to subvert Biblical Scripture in the JST:

 

2   For if Abraham were justified by a law of works, he hath glory in himself; but not of God.

4   Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

5   But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth

on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6   Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth

righteousness without the law of works,

7   Saying blessed are they through faith whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins

are covered.

16 Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the

promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them

also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

KJV

 

2   For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof

to glory; but not before God.

4   Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt,

5   But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,

his faith is counted for righteousness.

6   Even as David also desribeththe blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth

righteousness without works,

7   Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might

be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of

the faith of Abraham.

Ah yes. subverting the gospel by stating that the ungodly are NOT justified.

Yes, devils are ungodly. They believe - nay, not only believe but know who God is - and accordingly, in the true gospel as espoused by... well Coolrok, devils must be justified and saved.

Does that about cover it?

Or, since Joseph pointed out that it is not those who seek justification thru the law of works(Law of Moses), but those who believe in God, his faith is counted for righteousness, this is simply an elaboration of what has been stated all along in the Bible...

[Anakin7]

    Good point flyonthenwall. and we do not teach a personal self rightiousness that gets us to Heaven as we are accused of by our critics but by Accepting/Accessing/Activating True Grace by True Faith by way of Covenant - not the O.T one but the One Written in our Hearts/Minds with Gods Laws. And remember for Paul there is no such thing as True Faith without Obedience - Romans 1:5 or active Love - Gal 5:6. Pray tell back at you coolrok. No response to my link in post # 3194 ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited February 17, 2015 by Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

Good point flyonthenwall. and we do not teach a personal self rightiousness that gets us to Heaven as we are accused of by our critics but by Accepting/Accessing/Activating True Grace by True Faith by way of Covenant - not the O.T one but the One Written in our Hearts/Minds with Gods Laws. And remember for Paul there is no such thing as True Faith without Obedience - Romans 1:5 or active Love - Gal 5:6. Pray tell back at you coolrok. No response to my link in post # 3194 ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

It is sad that one that claims so much time studying our doctrine, hasn't a clue of what we teach. Truly, it is an example of having eyes, but cannot see; ears, but cannot hear.

[Anakin7]

    Flyonthewall how true, he [cookrok7 who professes to be a Lutheran Christian] also ignors the tenses of True Salvation as found in the Holy Bible - From a Catholic Christian that I have come across -   http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm . I have posted this before in the past but he ignors it [ along with other non LDS links that support True LDS Doctrine/Teachings/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/lifestyle and are "Biblical" ] and he complains about the links and will not read and respond to any error he thiks he observes in them. May True Grace Be With You and Those You Love.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7