Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[teddyaware]

       dw you do not believe a person can be OSAS ?, neither do True LDS.  To Stay Saved to Enter God's Kingdom one must perform certain True Faith action behavious to Stay Saved by accepting/accessing/ activating Jesus Christs Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice on our behalf. Must and must not's to Enter The Kingdom of God -  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm .  see also Luke 13:23-24/ 1 Peter 4:18.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

 

What you're having with Daniel is a chicken or the egg argument. He will argue that faith comes first, for without it there can be no forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness ... and he's right. On the other hand, you will argue that there is no evidence of forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness unless a man walks the walk and not just talks the talk .. and you're right too. In fact, both positions are true so why continue to go around and around on the hamster wheel to nowhere? Here's why: It's because you're surely willing to admit both points of view are correct, while Daniel just can't bring himself to acknowledge that men will be judged by their works. As a righteous man in Christ thinketh, so is he in very deed; and as a spiritually unregenerated man of fallen state thinketh, so is he very deed.

Edited February 5, 2015 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

What you're having with Daniel is a chicken or the egg argument. He will argue that faith comes first, for without it there can be no forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness ... and he's right. On the other hand, you will argue that there is no evidence of forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness unless a man walks the walk and not just talks the talk .. and you're right too. In fact, both positions are true so why continue to go around and around on the hamster wheel to nowhere? Here's why: It's because you're surely willing to admit both points of view are correct, while Daniel just can't bring himself to acknowledge that men will be judged by their works. As a righteous man in Christ thinketh, so is he in very deed; and as a spiritually unregenerated man of fallen state thinketh, so is he very deed.

 

This is so true.  It's very easy to get drawn into this "hamster wheel".  Thank you for posting this.

[danielwoods]

You really do have to manipulate the scriptures to get them to say what you want.

If we read exactly what is written it is clear that salvation isn't confirmed until the end, although the process can be started at any point.  It is also clear that true faith without works can't exist so it is pointless to argue which one justifies.  They are the same thing.

 

Unfortunately that isn't what the scriptures state. 

 

We have eternal life now. This is repeated through out the NT. 

 

Since God looks at the heart, not the outward appearances, he knows when we have saving faith, which is the only faith that justifies. Now as James said, he will show you his faith by his works, that's when others can see it. 

[danielwoods]

What you're having with Daniel is a chicken or the egg argument. He will argue that faith comes first, for without it there can be no forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness ... and he's right. On the other hand, you will argue that there is no evidence of forgiveness, regeneration and righteousness unless a man walks the walk and not just talks the talk .. and you're right too. In fact, both positions are true so why continue to go around and around on the hamster wheel to nowhere? Here's why: It's because you're surely willing to admit both points of view are correct, while Daniel just can't bring himself to acknowledge that men will be judged by their works. As a righteous man in Christ thinketh, so is he in very deed; and as a spiritually unregenerated man of fallen state thinketh, so is he very deed.

 

This is a valid point of disagreement. Thanks for pointing that out. As believers we aren't judged righteous or unrighteous by our works, because we've died already, been judged already. We already have the righteousness of Christ, by whom we have the gifts of the Spirit. It's only the unbelievers who will be judged by their works, because of their rejection of Christ. 

[teddyaware]

This is a valid point of disagreement. Thanks for pointing that out. As believers we aren't judged righteous or unrighteous by our works, because we've died already, been judged already. We already have the righteousness of Christ, by whom we have the gifts of the Spirit. It's only the unbelievers who will be judged by their works, because of their rejection of Christ. 

 

Hi again Daniel, 

 

If you are willing, in the spirit of true dialogue, I'm hoping you'll accept the following friendly challenge that's designed to enable me to get educated on the gospel from your point of view. What I propose to do is take your above post as our thesis statement and then, one New Testament scriptural excerpt at a time, I'll post pertinent scriptural references that I'd like you to explain and square with our above thesis statement. My comments will be kept to an absolute minimum so that we can stay on course without getting sidetracked. 

 

(I'm hoping a moderator will read this and take me off of "limited status," at least temporarily, because I'm about to run out of available posts and having limited posts will hinder our dialogue.)

 

But if I'm not taken off of 'limited,' please bear with me and watch for new postings as additional posts become available to me.

 

Here's the first scriptural excerpt i'd like you to square with the above thesis statement:

 

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2)

Edited February 5, 2015 by teddyaware

[Flyonthewall]

The type of faith that produces works, is the type of faith that James is talking about. If it was based on how many works one does, then the works would be listed, and James wouldn't have made the statement that he shows his faith by his works. Rather, he'd say he shows his works, which then justifies him. But he didn't say that.

The faith James is talking about gets life from the works associated with it. Many people want to use belief and faith interchangeably, but they are not. Faith = Belief + works.Faith is dead when one is missing.

It is not based on how many works/deeds/actions you do but whether or not you are doing them.

 

Do I believe in once saved always saved? No.

Then you must also believe that your faith(belief + works) needs to continue as long as you do.

[Anakin7]

    Again The question Is - Is Believing On Jesus The Same Ss Obeying Him To stay in True Grace by way of True Faith to be Saved ?.  - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 6, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       And then there is Salvation Past, Present, Future - http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Hi again Daniel, 

 

If you are willing, in the spirit of true dialogue, I'm hoping you'll accept the following friendly challenge that's designed to enable me to get educated on the gospel from your point of view. What I propose to do is take your above post as our thesis statement and then, one New Testament scriptural excerpt at a time, I'll post pertinent scriptural references that I'd like you to explain and square with our above thesis statement. My comments will be kept to an absolute minimum so that we can stay on course without getting sidetracked. 

 

(I'm hoping a moderator will read this and take me off of "limited status," at least temporarily, because I'm about to run out of available posts and having limited posts will hinder our dialogue.)

 

But if I'm not taken off of 'limited,' please bear with me and watch for new postings as additional posts become available to me.

 

Here's the first scriptural excerpt i'd like you to square with the above thesis statement:

 

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2)

 

Paul argues that only the righteousness that comes from God can save us. He talks about the sin of the Gentiles in 1:18-32 and then the sin of Jews in 2:1-3:8 then summarizes them all together in 3:9-20. 

So, how does one square this passage with my statement above? 

Notice the statement just before your quote, verse 5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." So, the context is to a person who is an unrepentant Jew. Then he states in chapter 3:9 "What shall we conclude then? Do we (as Jews) have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”

 

So, the answer to your question, is that God will render to every man according to their deeds, if they don't trust in Christ for his righteousness, because they are trusting in their own deeds. But, as Paul argues, no one is perfect in obedience to the truth. We all have sinned, therefore there is only one righteousness that justifies us, that is Christ's. 

[danielwoods]

The faith James is talking about gets life from the works associated with it. Many people want to use belief and faith interchangeably, but they are not. Faith = Belief + works.Faith is dead when one is missing.

It is not based on how many works/deeds/actions you do but whether or not you are doing them.

 

Then you must also believe that your faith(belief + works) needs to continue as long as you do.

 

Faith and belief are the same. The reason that James says that he will show you his faith by his works, is because there are many types of faiths. Each type of faith produces different works. Saving Faith in Christ is transformative, to such an extent that it produces good works. Not all faiths do this. The claims of some to have faith, but no change of heart or works indicates that they don't actually have faith or the right faith. 

 

Saving faith is a complete trust in christ. Many times people want to continue to trust in themselves, or some other person. Faith in ourselves or other people, don't transform our hearts though. That is James's point. He will show you his faith in christ, by his works or transformed life. 

 

Even Atheists have faith. They trust or have faith in themselves or science or what have you.

[coolrok7]

Ephesians 2:8-10. Anakin7. That is the description of the apostle Paul, chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus, confirmed by the apostle Peter in his calling.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Works are a natural result of faith in Jesus unless one truly doesn't have faith.

Edited February 6, 2015 by coolrok7

[teddyaware]

 

Paul argues that only the righteousness that comes from God can save us. He talks about the sin of the Gentiles in 1:18-32 and then the sin of Jews in 2:1-3:8 then summarizes them all together in 3:9-20. 

So, how does one square this passage with my statement above? 

Notice the statement just before your quote, verse 5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." So, the context is to a person who is an unrepentant Jew. Then he states in chapter 3:9 "What shall we conclude then? Do we (as Jews) have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”

 

So, the answer to your question, is that God will render to every man according to their deeds, if they don't trust in Christ for his righteousness, because they are trusting in their own deeds. But, as Paul argues, no one is perfect in obedience to the truth. We all have sinned, therefore there is only one righteousness that justifies us, that is Christ's.

 

With a genuine attempt at disciplined specificity, please explain how the statements in the excerpt -- which I will now place in bold and , where applicable, in caps-- support the thesis statement; to whit that only the wicked are judged by their works, but the righteous are not. 

 

6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2)

 

I think the point you're missing is that just because our works aren't perfect doesn't mean God doesn't require us to try to make a good-faith effort to do His will by the power and inspiration of the Spirit. If our works are performed by the power and inspiration of the Spirit, which can only be accomplished by faith in Christ, then they are accounted to us as righteousness because the atonement makes up the deficit. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by teddyaware

[coolrok7]

"Makes up the deficit" is the basic problem of the Mormon mindset. Our nature has been corrupted, totally.

It's not a matter of making up the difference. Jesus is our righteousness, period, as He is our perfection that is credited to our account that we can never repay.

The good works we do are the result of having a Biblical faith.

Edited February 7, 2015 by coolrok7

[JLHPROF]

"Makes up the deficit" is the basic problem of the Mormon mindset. Our nature has been corrupted, totally.

It's not a matter of making up the difference. Jesus is our righteousness, period, as He is our perfection that is credited to our account that we can never repay.

The good works we do are the result of having a Biblical faith.

 

Only if you ignore the other half of Biblical writing (and twist it to make it agree with the bits you like).

[teddyaware]

"Makes up the deficit" is the basic problem of the Mormon mindset. Our nature has been corrupted, totally.

It's not a matter of making up the difference. Jesus is our righteousness, period, as He is our perfection that is credited to our account that we can never repay.

The good works we do are the result of having a Biblical faith.

 

You're failing to understand what I said. By the way, the Book of Mormon actually agrees with you 100%. Now what? (please do take the necessary time to actually read and digest the following, then tell me what you think?)

 

 

21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.

22 For behold, God knowing all things, being fromeverlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

 23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.

 24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them. (Moroni 7)

 

 24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

 25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 7)

Edited February 6, 2015 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

With a genuine attempt at disciplined specificity, please explain how the statements in the excerpt -- which I will now place in bold and , where applicable, in caps-- support the thesis statement; to whit that only the wicked are judged by their works, but the righteous are not. 

 

6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2)

 

I think the point you're missing is that just because our works aren't perfect doesn't mean God doesn't require us to try to make a good-faith effort to do His will by the power and inspiration of the Spirit. If our works are performed by the power and inspiration of the Spirit, which can only be accomplished by faith in Christ, then they are accounted to us as righteousness because the atonement makes up the deficit.

 

Verse six is a quote from the OT. That section is talking about Jewish law and doing good, as Paul states, "17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God.", which is a set up for Paul's argument that without the righteousness of Christ we are unrighteous. James also references this idea, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10)

 

Is it talking about about making a "good faith effort"? Not at all. There is no mention of a "good faith effort".

There is no sense in the NT of Christ making up a deficit of which we could only pay part of. Rather, the teaching is that Christ paid it all. All sins, all short comings were paid by Christ. Our good works don't remit sin, because they aren't shedding blood which is what is required to remit sin, however, Jesus did. There is no description in the NT of our works making up any part of our own sin.

[Anakin7]

       dw True however one must Accept,Access,Activate True Grace [ charis which has approx 50 different definitional meanings in the anchient world one of which is unmerited favor] by way of True Faith [ pistis which has approx 25 definitional meanings in the anchient world - Allegience, Commitment,Confidence,Devotion,Discipleship,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience,Trust]. See 1 John 1:7. One does not keep the commandments out of our Love Covenant we have made to save ourselves but to be/stay in True Grace to have Jesus Christ awesome Blood sacrifice for us cover and wash away our sins and be covered with his rightiousness.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 8, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

 

Ephesians 2:8-10. Anakin7. That is the description of the apostle Paul, chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus, confirmed by the apostle Peter in his calling.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Works are a natural result of faith in Jesus unless one truly doesn't have faith.

 

coolrok7 Yes salvation is by Grace [True Grace = charis - unmerited favor along with 50 other definitional meanings in the anchient world] through Faith [True Faith - pistis = Allegience/commitment/confidence/devotion/discipleship/faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust along with 15 other definitioanal meanings in the anchient world] to the person and work of Christ Jesus] Not all had true faith in the N.T which those that claimed faith were found to have a false faith with no works for the Lord but for themselves to be seen of men which include those who boasted of keeping the law of Moses.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7

Edited February 7, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    Once again - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf     To walk/stay in True Grace [ The Light - 1 John 1:7 ] by way of True Faith.

   

 

    In His Debt/Grace

          Anakin7

Edited February 7, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    For coolrok7 [or any other] - a response to reformed [ 16th century to current ] Grace Alone through Faith Alone understanding/viewpoint - From a Catholic Christian Brother -  http://www.matt1618.freeyellow.com/ephesians2.html

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited February 7, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

It's Scripture alone, Faith alone, Grace alone which go together to explain the Biblical teaching of salvation not of works but by grace through faith. Get it right Anakin7.

This not a denial of having good works as we are created in Christ Jesus for good works.

The problem in Mormonism is their disobedience in going after Joseph Smith, the founding false prophet, which teaches meriting one's salvation in the requirement of temple ordinances which was never an apostolic teaching.

[JLHPROF]

the requirement of temple ordinances which was never an apostolic teaching.

 

Oh, I think it was.  That's all through the Bible.  You just don't recognize it.  And there's plenty of early Christian evidence for the temple ordinances too.

 

Start with John 13:8 and John 12:7.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Anakin7]

    Once again coolrok7 you are not getting it [ I am getting it right ]. Read my links above that respond to your polemic. You access True Grace [charis] not a false grace by way of True Faith [pistis] not a false faith that is for show and self rightious works but those that serve God and our fellow man.This is done by way of our Love Covenant we have made as/when we made Jesus Christ The Lord Of Life,Lord, Reedemer,Saviour,God,King,Master of our Life. No Cheap Grace - Expensive Grace - It  Cost The Saviour his very Life. True Salvation is absolutly Free but it costs us our very life - Luke 14: 25-33.

.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited February 8, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

So Anakin7, you know my heart and accuse me of having a false faith?

[Anakin7]

    coolrok7 I know not your heart, nor your faith. I am just responding to your adinfinentum polemic against our Hearts/Faith.  I am correcting/responding to your statements and showing how we have True Salvation/Soteriological Truth. I am inviting you to obtain True Faith To obtain True Grace. You claim to know our Hearts and our Faith ?. When will you respond to the above links I provided that support True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run in our lives ?. And also there are those non LDS Christians who believe/teach that Lutheranism [Of which you a part] and Lutheran individuals have a False faith/gospel [ They are Pounding on your door ]. May True Grace be with you.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited February 9, 2015 by Anakin7