Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Anakin7]

    Yes coolrok we are Saved by True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith - [pistis] !. Now learn the Anchient Heavenly and Semetic meanings of these words not 16th century and modern reformation understanding. We labor for The LORD to stay in True Grace by our True Faith [ No OSAS ] I thought Luthans also taught against OSAS. Did you really read my link I posted above ?.

 

in His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited January 26, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Read your link, what I said still stands. You didn't really answer the point.

[Anakin7]

      You did ?, you are entitled to your polemic but I did answer the point. What is Grace ?.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[coolrok7]

As you are to your's. Law is not grace. Have you kept the Law without ever sinning.

Don't see that you have. I haven't.

We're saved by grace through faith, not of any good works we have done. Good works are an evidence of faith.

Edited January 26, 2015 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

    Yes as I have stated before in the past we are Saved by True Grace [charis - Unmerited favor which is 1 of approx 50 definitional meanings of Grace] by way of True Faith [pistis - which has approx 25 definitional meanings] all used within The Walls of The Heavenly Jerusalem where God The Father/God the Son Jesus Christ/God the Holy Ghost Spirit/Archangels/Angels/Rightiousness/Truth Dwell along with The True O.T Prophets/Hebrews/Israelites/N.T Prophets/Apostles/Saints/Christians.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited January 26, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       http://promormon.blogspot.com/2008/10/justification-works-deeds-and-my.html

       Oh and coolrok7 my NIV  Bible  says in John 6:29 -  Jesus Answered, " The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent". My NIV footnote for John 6:29 in my NIV Bible says  - 6:29 - work of God. Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for - the one that leads to eternal life. So since Belief/Believing/Faith/Faithfulness all come from the same greek root word from my understanding Belief and Faith are a work. One must accept/access/activate True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis].

 

       In His Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

Edited January 26, 2015 by Anakin7

[pogi]

We're saved by grace through faith, not of any good works we have done. Good works are an evidence of faith.

 

Is grace not conditional upon faith?

Is faith not evidenced by good works?

Can one not conclude then that grace is conditional upon good works as an evidence of faith?

[coolrok7]

One follows the other. Justification is an accomplished fact at the cross. It is not applied universally but through faith in the undistorted truth.

Sanctification or being set apart for works of service is the result of having a faith that enables one to be saved.

Grace is not a license to sin but Christians will naturally be led to repentance.

There are those in name only of course. It will all be made known at the Judgment.

[thesometimesaint]

One follows the other. Justification is an accomplished fact at the cross. It is not applied universally but through faith in the undistorted truth.

Sanctification or being set apart for works of service is the result of having a faith that enables one to be saved.

Grace is not a license to sin but Christians will naturally be led to repentance.

There are those in name only of course. It will all be made known at the Judgment.

 

Two sides of the same coin.

 

Faith without works is dead just as works without faith are dead.

 

No one here ever said that Grace was a license to sin. Is repentance not a work?

 

"By their works ye shall know them". We don't have to wait until the Judgment to know.

[coolrok7]

The "them" in context are the false prophets.

This goes back to the thread question. Mormons I believe started with the claims of one who is a false prophet, followed by those who succeeded him down to the present.

Edited January 26, 2015 by coolrok7

[JLHPROF]

The "them" in context are the false prophets.

This goes back to the thread question. Mormons I believe started with the claims of one who is a false prophet, followed by those who succeeded him down to the present.

 

And Mormons believe them to be true prophets.  And I think their works/fruits definitely support their truthfulness.

Especially since evangelicals don't believe in works/fruits.

[thesometimesaint]

The "them" in context are the false prophets.

This goes back to the thread question. Mormons I believe started with the claims of one who is a false prophet, followed by those who succeeded him down to the present.

 

LDS believe that through apostasy and persecution the authority from God to act in God's name was lost. That though Joseph Smith that authority from God to act in his name was restored.

[coolrok7]

I know the story of Mormonism since the mid 70's.

 

As a Christian, Evangelical: one who proclaims the Good News of the Gospel, JLHPROF, that is a misstatement of what I believe the Bible teaches.

 

Works are a product of having repented of one's sinful nature initially, followed up for the sins committed post salvation (Baptism/Sacrament). We are falsely accused of not believing in having good works (other Evangelicals don't speak for me) as I do believe the distinction that they are a product of a saving faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. It is taught by Mormons/Witnesses that it is through their own merit that they achieve this state.

 

If you read the statements of both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses they do teach that the works they do have merit in gaining salvation which gets redefined in their own literature explaining these things.

 

When you get to James' statement, I'll show you my faith by my works, it is not contradictory to what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10. I accept both.

Edited January 26, 2015 by coolrok7

[danielwoods]

And Mormons believe them to be true prophets.  And I think their works/fruits definitely support their truthfulness.

Especially since evangelicals don't believe in works/fruits.

 

Curious what works/fruits do you think supports Joseph Smith as a trustworthy prophet?

[thesometimesaint]

Curious what works/fruits do you think supports Joseph Smith as a trustworthy prophet?

 

The First Vision.

The Book of Mormon.

Doctrine and Covenants

Pearl of Great Price

Restoration of the Gospel

Restoration of the Temple.

Leading the Church out of obscurity.

Leading the Church out of multiple locations.

To name but a few.

[Anakin7]

       coolrok7 you need True Grace that is Accepted/Accessed/Activated by True Faith to be Saved.

 

       In His Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

[coolrok7]

So are you saying I don't have "True Faith"?

[Teancum]

So are you saying I don't have "True Faith"?

There is not nor has there ever been one true faith when it comes to Christiantiy.

Your gospel is the gospel of Paul. It is one amongst about a dozen others of early Christianity.

[Anakin7]

coolrok7 I do not know, I hope it is the The Anchient Semetic Middle Eastern meaning of Faith [pistis] [not the Reformed view] that Accepts/Accesses/Activates True Grace [charis]. But reading your posts I ponder your reformation view. Do you have True Grace ?.

 

in His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited January 26, 2015 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

The First Vision.

The Book of Mormon.

Doctrine and Covenants

Pearl of Great Price

Restoration of the Gospel

Restoration of the Temple.

Leading the Church out of obscurity.

Leading the Church out of multiple locations.

To name but a few.

 

Thanks for the list. Which could be reproduced for any leader of any organization (provided you're a believer in that organization). And if this is the fruit that you guys are talking about, thats fine. If I was looking for fruit, I'd look for the actual fruit of the spirit. 

 

Notice that Jesus was actually talking about a different type of fruit.

Matthew 7:15-20 (NKJV)

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

So, by their fruits you will know them. What type of fruit did Joseph Smith have? 

Was he faithful? 

Was he patient (longsuffering)?

Was he gentle? 

Was he temperate, or did he have a temper?

Was he meek?

Did he have faith or did he take matters into his own hands instead of trusting God?

Did he always seek peace?

Over all did he love his enemies? 

How about peace? Did he have peace in his life?

 

Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[JLHPROF]

 

So, by their fruits you will know them. What type of fruit did Joseph Smith have? 

Was he faithful?  To the restored gospel?  Yes, unto death.

Was he patient (longsuffering)? He waited 3 years from the time the plates were revealed till he was worthy to receive them.

Was he gentle? All historical recollections indicate yes (here is where you bring up the pistol at Carthage)

Was he temperate, or did he have a temper? The only record we have of his temper is righteous indignation, similar to Christ and the moneychangers.

Was he meek? We could trade quotes showing he was and wasn't?  Does that sound fun?

Did he have faith or did he take matters into his own hands instead of trusting God? As with Peter, he tried both and learned to trust God.

Did he always seek peace? Once again you drag up the pistol at Carthage and we trade quotes back and forth.

Over all did he love his enemies? Overall, absolutley.  His history is repleat with his forgiving people and drawing them back into the fold.

How about peace? Did he have peace in his life? At least as much as the Savior and the early Christians.

[Flyonthewall]

I know the story of Mormonism since the mid 70's.

 

As a Christian, Evangelical: one who proclaims the Good News of the Gospel, JLHPROF, that is a misstatement of what I believe the Bible teaches.

 

Works are a product of having repented of one's sinful nature initially, followed up for the sins committed post salvation (Baptism/Sacrament). We are falsely accused of not believing in having good works (other Evangelicals don't speak for me) as I do believe the distinction that they are a product of a saving faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. It is taught by Mormons/Witnesses that it is through their own merit that they achieve this state.

 

If you read the statements of both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses they do teach that the works they do have merit in gaining salvation which gets redefined in their own literature explaining these things.

 

When you get to James' statement, I'll show you my faith by my works, it is not contradictory to what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10. I accept both.

Works are not a byproduct of faith. You cannot separate works from faith. Works are what animate faith. Without works, faith is dead. Can dead faith save?

What you have to differentiate is works of the Law of Moses, and works of the Law of faith.

LDS claim you cannot have living faith without works. You claim they are separate. I hope it is a simple semantics issue but alas - you will most likely fall on your sword rather than agree.

[Anakin7]

     True Flyonthewall. 

 

       In His Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

Edited January 27, 2015 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

So, by their fruits you will know them. What type of fruit did Joseph Smith have? 

Was he faithful?  To the restored gospel?  Yes, unto death.

Was he patient (longsuffering)? He waited 3 years from the time the plates were revealed till he was worthy to receive them.

Was he gentle? All historical recollections indicate yes (here is where you bring up the pistol at Carthage)

Was he temperate, or did he have a temper? The only record we have of his temper is righteous indignation, similar to Christ and the moneychangers.

Was he meek? We could trade quotes showing he was and wasn't?  Does that sound fun?

Did he have faith or did he take matters into his own hands instead of trusting God? As with Peter, he tried both and learned to trust God.

Did he always seek peace? Once again you drag up the pistol at Carthage and we trade quotes back and forth.

Over all did he love his enemies? Overall, absolutley.  His history is repleat with his forgiving people and drawing them back into the fold.

How about peace? Did he have peace in his life? At least as much as the Savior and the early Christians.

Each of us answer these questions differently. If I agreed with your answers, I'd be LDS. 

 

What is great is that much of his life can be studied, so his fruits are plain for anyone willing to study them. 

[danielwoods]

Works are not a byproduct of faith. You cannot separate works from faith. Works are what animate faith. Without works, faith is dead. Can dead faith save?

What you have to differentiate is works of the Law of Moses, and works of the Law of faith.

LDS claim you cannot have living faith without works. You claim they are separate. I hope it is a simple semantics issue but alas - you will most likely fall on your sword rather than agree.

 

The key question that gets us out of that loop is justification. What justifies is Faith, "We are justified by faith". Works of the law cannot and do not ever justify us before God. 

 

What kind of faith justifies us before God? That type that produces the works of faith, as James points out. In essence, it's the fruit of faith, but the fruit doesn't justify us, the faith does.