Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Anakin7]

  www.thedivinecouncil.com

 

       In His Debt/Grace

               Anakin7

Edited January 14, 2015 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

According to the Bible, "only begotten" indicates he's the only one. His uniqueness is emphasized by that concept. Similar to:

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

1 John 4:9 "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

 

We believe God the Father is the father of our spirits and you believe otherwise, I presume. Christ surely is unique and in LDS scripture is referred to as the Only Begotten and was called the Only Begotten even before the foundation of the world. We LDS also believe the Son has preeminence above all as a consequence of being the firstborn of every creature. But just because He is called the firstborn of every creature doesn't mean He is the only born of every creature. Otherwise why say He is the FIRSTBORN of every creature if He's the only born of every creature? So we believe He is the firstborn in the pre earth life and is also the firstborn from the grave, that in ALL THINGS He might have preeminence. 

 

Do you realize that according to Paul the Bible contains only the milk of the word of God and that it does not contain the harder to digest "strong meat" the Gospel? On two occasions Paul said he wished he could give the members meat, but by their hardened hearts and spiritual immaturity revealed they were only able to continue with Gospel milk. Here's the secret: We Latter-day Saints are giving you some Gospel meat but, sadly, you are chocking on it. Do you ever wonder to yourself what the Gospel meat might be that Paul held back from the church?

[Tacenda]

Teddyaware, so the meat is what Lucifer was after too?

[danielwoods]

We believe God the Father is the father of our spirits and you believe otherwise, I presume. Christ surely is unique and in LDS scripture is referred to as the Only Begotten and was called the Only Begotten even before the foundation of the world. We LDS also believe the Son has preeminence above all as a consequence of being the firstborn of every creature. But just because He is called the firstborn of every creature doesn't mean He is the only born of every creature. Otherwise why say He is the FIRSTBORN of every creature if He's the only born of every creature? So we believe He is the firstborn in the pre earth life and is also the firstborn from the grave, that in ALL THINGS He might have preeminence. 

 

Do you realize that according to Paul the Bible contains only the milk of the word of God and that it does not contain the harder to digest "strong meat" the Gospel? On two occasions Paul said he wished he could give the members meat, but by their hardened hearts and spiritual immaturity revealed they were only able to continue with Gospel milk. Here's the secret: We Latter-day Saints are giving you some Gospel meat but, sadly, you are chocking on it. Do you ever wonder to yourself what the Gospel meat might be that Paul held back from the church?

 

The statement is from Colossians 1:15

 

"15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

 

Notice a couple things. 

God is invisible, no body. 

Jesus is the firstborn, yet by him all things were created, in heaven and earth, visible and invisible - All things. This statement follows the "firstborn" statement. So obviously the "firstborn" statement isn't talking about birth as we understand it. Rather, it's a statement of his role as the Only Son, as the previous passages I cited mentioned. No other sons. All the statements in this passage establish that Christ is equal to the creator God of the OT, because the same things are said of him. 

 

I understand that Paul expressed his frustration, but he made no statement that states that all his writings are only "milk". The LDS, and any other organization, can claim any myriad of things (and indeed they do). Whether they are true or not depends on whether or not it agrees with God's eternal word. 

[Freedom]

So in other words, Danielwoods, you have a whole lot of speculation that you rely on to support your belief system. We have modern revelation. Change is change. You take the expression very literally that he does not change, but then you qualify what you mean  by that but are unable to provide doctrinal support through the scriptures. if you rely on speculation to interpret the scriptures, you are no closer to the truth than those you criticize. 

 

You say you can find the trinity if you 'look' for it. What do you mean by that? Doesn't this mean imposing your belief on a passage to draw a conclusion that justifies your belief? Why don't you provide examples in the old testament that establishes that God is a trinity in the evangelical sense of the term. 

[teddyaware]

Teddyaware, so the meat is what Lucifer was after too?

 

It's hard to know what you mean by this question. The Bible clearly teaches us the Lord desires His children prepare themselves to obtain the "hidden treasures of knowledge" -- also known as "the mysteries of godliness" -- that their knowledge of the "deep things of God" might increase so that the saints might be enlightened and strengthened thereby. What does the Lord's desire that His children diligently prepare themselves to receive Gospel "meat" have to do with Satan, other than the fact that Satan actively labors to deprive God's children of any and all Gospel knowledge? Please read the following to understand why gaining a deep knowledge of the Gospel is so important and why losing Gospel knowledge is so destructive.

 

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Edited January 14, 2015 by teddyaware

[Vance]

Just one aspect of the nature of God which we don't share is his immutability, that is his unchanging nature. God doesn't progress as we do. He doesn't learn from his mistakes as we do. God is and always has been who he is. Notice below it states that God is not a man, the opposite is also true by implication, that man is not God. 

 

 

1 Samuel 15:29 - “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” 

Psalm 102:12, 25-28 "12 But Thou, O LORD dost abide forever; And Thy name to all generations. . . 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands. 26 Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed. 27 But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. 28 The children of Thy servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before Thee”

Malachi 3:6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed”

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings;"

James 1:17 "Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow"

And not a single one of those say that we don't share in the divine nature.  Divine nature is not even mentioned.

 

So, according to your standard, you have failed to answer the CFR.

[Vance]

According to the Bible, "only begotten" indicates he's the only one. His uniqueness is emphasized by that concept. Similar to:

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

1 John 4:9 "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

And yet the Bible also says,

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

It also indicates that Satan is a son of God.

Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

 

The Bible, it can be confusing.

 

It even calls the devil a god.  (See 2 Cor 4:4)

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vance

[Vance]

I do believe that  "sons of God" in this case is referring to the heavenly ambassadors/messengers of God who are the angels. In fact angel is often translated "messenger".  They are called sons of God because of their connection with God (carrying out His bidding) in a similar way as the Israelites became "sons of God."   That in no way is to be confused with a begotten Son, and the word "ONLY" makes that very clear Biblically.

John the Baptist was one of those angels.  Ergo, those angels/sons of God are humans.

 

The "Son" existed eternally before His earthy incarnation by the supernatural overshadowing of the Holy Spirit

Could you provide a reference for that part?  You will be surprised at what the Bible does and does not say on this subject.

[teddyaware]

The statement is from Colossians 1:15

 

"15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

 

Notice a couple things. 

God is invisible, no body. 

Jesus is the firstborn, yet by him all things were created, in heaven and earth, visible and invisible - All things. This statement follows the "firstborn" statement. So obviously the "firstborn" statement isn't talking about birth as we understand it. Rather, it's a statement of his role as the Only Son, as the previous passages I cited mentioned. No other sons. All the statements in this passage establish that Christ is equal to the creator God of the OT, because the same things are said of him. 

 

I understand that Paul expressed his frustration, but he made no statement that states that all his writings are only "milk". The LDS, and any other organization, can claim any myriad of things (and indeed they do). Whether they are true or not depends on whether or not it agrees with God's eternal word. 

 

The following will be a bit long, but I hope you will carefully read all I have to say because by doing so you may be disabused of many of the misunderstandings you hold pertaining to LDS doctrine...

 

First, you may be surprised to learn the Latter-day Saint scriptures teach Christ created all things, precisely as Paul declares in the quote from Colossians 1; and when these scriptures use the term"all things," that even includes the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God...

 

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so (i.e. the creation of all things), and by what thou madest them?

 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

 32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. (Moses 1)

 

The following verse makes it perfectly plain that Christ created all things, including the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God... 

 

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: LET US make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Moses 2)

 

The fact that the above verse is speaking of the creation of the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God is firmly established by the following two verses taken from the very next chapter of the Book of Moses:

 

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

 

So as Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!" LDS scripture is in complete agreement with Paul's creation narrative in Colossians 1.

 

Next item: Just because Paul says there are "invisible" thrones, dominions, and principalities does not mean these things are not real and substantive. Heaven and its many resurrected inhabitants, who possess glorified bodies of tangible flesh and bone, are now invisible to us; but though they may be invisible to fallen man, that doesn't mean we'll not be able to see them when we are quickened by the Spirit as well. It's very hard to imagine thrones, dominions and principalities that cannot be seen if given the spiritual eyes to see them. All the things John saw in heaven when he received his Revelation are invisible to to fallen, unregenerate man but John saw these otherwise invisible things because he "was in the Spirit on the Lord's day."

 

Finally, the reason why the so many of the Apostolic Period saints, including the Corinthians and Hebrews, were not able to receive the meat of the Gospel is because they were as yet carnal and spiritually immature, in spite of the fact that they had already sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. In Hebrews we learn that the "strong meat" of the Gospel can only be digested by those spiritually mature saints who have the inspired spiritual wisdom to know how to properly discern between good and evil.

 

And why must a follower of Christ gain the spiritual wisdom to know how to be able properly discern between between good and evil before they're able to receive and digest the strong meat of the Gospel? Because if one lacks the spiritual wisdom that otherwise enables those "of full age" to be skillful the discernment of the "the word of righteousness," they will choke and gag at the strong meat they are unprepared to receive. And that's exactly what happens with the anti-Mormons -- when they learn of the strong Gospel meat that has been revealed to the Latter-day Saints, they choke and gag at it, and hastily jump to the conclusion that these true and sacred teachings are evil. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

God never changes His Mind. However, He does work to change our minds. And in this regard there are events which God eventually accomplished, in His own timing, which may at first seem to us as a shift of direction. In fact they are merely placed on hold for in God's eyes a blink of an eye.

 

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestined us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

I seem to remember a place called Nineveh that he changed his mind about destroying.

[danielwoods]

So in other words, Danielwoods, you have a whole lot of speculation that you rely on to support your belief system. We have modern revelation. Change is change. You take the expression very literally that he does not change, but then you qualify what you mean  by that but are unable to provide doctrinal support through the scriptures. if you rely on speculation to interpret the scriptures, you are no closer to the truth than those you criticize. 

 

You say you can find the trinity if you 'look' for it. What do you mean by that? Doesn't this mean imposing your belief on a passage to draw a conclusion that justifies your belief? Why don't you provide examples in the old testament that establishes that God is a trinity in the evangelical sense of the term. 

 

I suppose when things contradictory to the bible are called "revelation" then my quoting numerous passages has to be viewed as "speculation".

 

What I said was if you know what to look for you can see the trinity in the OT. Not interested in quoting more passages only to have someone say that I'm just speculating. 

[Freedom]

I suppose when things contradictory to the bible are called "revelation" then my quoting numerous passages has to be viewed as "speculation".

 

What I said was if you know what to look for you can see the trinity in the OT. Not interested in quoting more passages only to have someone say that I'm just speculating. 

The concern I have is that you quote scripture that says God never changes and when you are shown evidence that God does change, you qualify the verses that you use to say he does not change. You are welcome to have your own interpretation of the bible, but to say another persons interpretation contradicts the bible is rather silly. Your interpretation also contradicts the bible. You say God never changes, yet the bible is fool of examples of God changing. 

[thesometimesaint]

CFR that Adam and Eve were as little children.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3%3A1-13&version=ESV

[Vance]

I suppose when things contradictory to the bible are called "revelation" then my quoting numerous passages has to be viewed as "speculation".

They are not contradictory to the Bible, just your misinterpretation of it.

 

  What I said was if you know what to look for you can see the trinity in the OT. Not interested in quoting more passages only to have someone say that I'm just speculating.

Ah, so if you look at certain passages a certain way, then and only then can you find YOUR version of what those passages are talking about.

 

Interesting admission.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vance

[coolrok7]

This is plagiarism mixed in with Joseph's own thoughts. (Teddyaware 8:51 am today)

Edited January 14, 2015 by coolrok7

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Do LDS believe the statements in the Book of Mormon that say Jesus is My LORD and GOD, GOD above all, GOD from Eternity

 

3 Nephi 19:18

 

Mosiah 5:15

 

Mosiah 3:5

 

2 Nephi 26:12

 

3 Nephi 11:17

[thesometimesaint]

Do LDS believe the statements in the Book of Mormon that say Jesus is My LORD and GOD, GOD above all, GOD from Eternity

 

3 Nephi 19:18

 

Mosiah 5:15

 

Mosiah 3:5

 

2 Nephi 26:12

 

3 Nephi 11:17

 

So? It is in the Bible also.

SEE John  20:24-28

24 ¶But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

 26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[danielwoods]

 

The following will be a bit long, but I hope you will carefully read all I have to say because by doing so you may be disabused of many of the misunderstandings you hold pertaining to LDS doctrine...

 

First, you may be surprised to learn the Latter-day Saint scriptures teach Christ created all things, precisely as Paul declares in the quote from Colossians 1; and when these scriptures use the term"all things," that even includes the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God...

 

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so (i.e. the creation of all things), and by what thou madest them?

 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

 32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. (Moses 1)

 

The following verse makes it perfectly plain that Christ created all things, including the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God... 

 

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: LET US make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Moses 2)

 

The fact that the above verse is speaking of the creation of the preexistent spirit sons and daughters of God is firmly established by the following two verses taken from the very next chapter of the Book of Moses:

 

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

So as Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!" LDS scripture is in complete agreement with Paul's creation narrative in Colossians 1.

 

Next item: Just because Paul says there are "invisible" thrones, dominions, and principalities does not mean these things are not real and substantive. Heaven and its many resurrected inhabitants with glorified bodies of tangible flesh and bone are now invisible to us, but though they may be invisible to fallen man, that doesn't mean we'll not be able to see them when we are quickened by the Spirit as well. It's very hard to imagine thrones, dominions and principalities that cannot be seen if given the spiritual eyes to see them. All the things John saw in heaven when he received his Revelation are invisible to to fallen, unregenerate man but John saw these otherwise invisible things because he "was in the Spirit on the Lord's day."

 

Finally, the reason why the so many of the Apostolic Period saints, including the Corinthians and Hebrews, were not able to receive the meat of the Gospel is because they were as yet carnal and spiritually immature, in spite of the fact that they had already sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. In Hebrews we learn that the "strong meat" of the Gospel can only be digested by those spiritually mature saints who have the inspired spiritual wisdom to know how to properly discern between good and evil.

 

And why must a follower of Christ gain the spiritual wisdom to know how to be able properly discern between between good and evil before they're able to receive and digest the strong meat of the Gospel? Because if one lacks the spiritual wisdom that otherwise enables those "of full age" to be skillful the discernment of the "the word of righteousness," they will choke and gag at the strong meat they are unprepared to receive. And that's exactly what happens with the anti-Mormons -- when they learn of the strong Gospel meat that has been revealed to the Latter-day Saints, they choke and gag at it, and hastily jump to the conclusion that these true and sacred teachings are evil. 

 

 

I appreciate your explanation. I've never heard that the LDS believe that "intelligences" were created. I've only heard it claimed that they were eternal, as in existed forever. 

 

Your conclusion at the end is quite the opposite of what is actually happening. What is actually happening is a reaction similar to hearing any type of error.

[danielwoods]

I seem to remember a place called Nineveh that he changed his mind about destroying.

 

Jonah knew that God would forgive them, you really think that God changed his mind? You really think that God didn't know all along that they would repent? Seriously? 

[danielwoods]

The concern I have is that you quote scripture that says God never changes and when you are shown evidence that God does change, you qualify the verses that you use to say he does not change. You are welcome to have your own interpretation of the bible, but to say another persons interpretation contradicts the bible is rather silly. Your interpretation also contradicts the bible. You say God never changes, yet the bible is fool of examples of God changing. 

 

It's an interesting tension that is created in the Bible. So, which is true? Is God immutable as claimed, or does he change? Both cannot be correct. 

 

The other variable in this discussion is revelation. Clearly we agree that the Bible is revelation, but does LDS doctrine/revelation trump or supersede old revelation found in the Bible? 

[danielwoods]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3%3A1-13&version=ESV

 

Missing is the statement or idea that they were as little children. Rather they were adults. Eve claimed to have been deceived. 

[thesometimesaint]

Missing is the statement or idea that they were as little children. Rather they were adults. Eve claimed to have been deceived. 

 

They didn't know they were naked. I know plenty of young children that don't know nakedness. How many adults do you know that don't know naked when they see it?

[Vance]

Do LDS believe the statements in the Book of Mormon that say Jesus is My LORD and GOD, GOD above all, GOD from Eternity

 

3 Nephi 19:18

 

Mosiah 5:15

 

Mosiah 3:5

 

2 Nephi 26:12

 

3 Nephi 11:17

Of course.

 

AND we know what they really mean.

[Vance]

Jonah knew that God would forgive them, you really think that God changed his mind?

 

Jonah said, Jonah 3:4 . . . Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 

 

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

Jonah 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

  2 And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

 

Then,

5 So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

 

Obviously fully expecting it to be destroyed as he prophesied.

 

Was Jonah a false prophet?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vance