Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Bobbieaware]

And I say who care I am not living my life to please anybody but God and myself.

Let the barking dogs yap at the caravan to Zion...

[Teancum]

According to the prophet Joseph Smith, there iS a substance that unifies the Father and the Son and that substance is the uncreated and unchanging Spirit of Truth (see the Lectures on Faith). While I know you're not a believer in Mormonism (so I'm not speaking of you), for the life of me, I don't understand why so many otherwise knowledgeable LDS members so often miss this important, basic point of doctrine? The Spirit of Truth (the Lectures on Faith also calls this Spiritual substance the Mind of God, with a capital "M") is indeed a divine substance that is the quickening storehouse of all divine light, life, truth, wisdom, knowledge and power.

Because the Father and the Son are filled to infinite and eternal degree with this holy substance, they are one God, though two separate and discrete personages (see D&C 88 for a good description of this holy substance). And not coincidentally, it is this same uncreated and unchanging Spirit of Light, Life and Truth that has the power to make the saints one with the Father and the Son, so that the Father, and the Son, and the saints of God might all be one, living and dwelling in each other by means of this holy substance (see Christ's intercessory prayer in John) .

For those in the know, they realize the main difference between the Trinitarians and the LDS Church is that the LDS define what the unifying substance is, while the Trinitarians believe the unifying substance is an unknowable and incomprehensible mystery. Simply put, LDS theology demystifies the unity of the Godhead -- and we catch endless grief for it.

 

 

I agree with your summary above.

[Freedom]

What is meant in Romans 8:17 to be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ? What does it mean to be glorified together?

[Vance]

Does one become a loaf of bread when one partakes of it?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

Does one become flesh and blood when one partakes of it?

[Vance]

I have tried but can't get a coherent statement as to what essence is or hoe they are using it.

It is French for gasoline and they use it to power automobiles.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Vance

[coolrok7]

Vance, that is the nature of our creation in Genesis 1. Jesus as God became a man or flesh, blood, and bone, through the Virgin Mary which was not His normal state being uncreated God.

 

Another term or in other words would be that He participated in our existence to die as we do, being created beings in which the term brother is used.

 

The context of 2 Peter is that of the Divine Nature participating in the bringing about a reclamation of our fallen state of being, being corrupted through disobedience which brought about death.

 

This is the Gospel message. That Jesus died and rose again which brings about eternal life for all who choose to believe the true Gospel not the false one.

Edited January 11, 2015 by coolrok7

[thesometimesaint]

That makes absolutely no sense.

[coolrok7]

I was answering Vance's comment in reference to "partaking" cited in Hebrews 2.

Flesh is our nature, not Jesus' nature. He was God but became a man took on our nature to suffer death because spirits don't die.

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In 1 John it says we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies like His was. We don't become gods.

[ERayR]

I was answering Vance's comment in reference to "partaking" cited in Hebrews 2.

Flesh is our nature, not Jesus' nature. He was God but became a man took on our nature to suffer death because spirits don't die.

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In 1 John it says we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies like His was. We don't become gods.

 

A little bit right and a little bit in error and a little bit confused. 

 

I do not understand what you mean by "Flesh is our nature,

 

What was God (Jesus) if he was not a man?

 

Spirits can be separated from God and in a sense become dead.

 

The separation of the spirit from the body is death - correct.

 

". . .we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies . . . " - Correct

 

" . . . with glorified bodies like His was is." - Change was to is then it will be correct

 

"We don't become gods." - Not automatically but the potential is there.

[thesometimesaint]

I was answering Vance's comment in reference to "partaking" cited in Hebrews 2.

Flesh is our nature, not Jesus' nature. He was God but became a man took on our nature to suffer death because spirits don't die.

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In 1 John it says we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies like His was. We don't become gods.

 

That doesn't help any.

[Anakin7]

    2 Cor 8:9

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Vance]

I was answering Vance's comment in reference to "partaking" cited in Hebrews 2.

To bad that you can admit the obvious.  That I am correct.

 

Flesh is our nature, not Jesus' nature. He was God but became a man took on our nature to suffer death because spirits don't die.

Not totally correct and totally irrelevant.  And I will show you why.

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body.

So, at that point, is "spirit" our nature or is dead flesh our nature?

 

In 1 John it says we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies like His was. We don't become gods.

So, we will be just like gods, we will have divine nature according to Peter or in other word we will have God's nature.  We will sit upon God's throne according to John (in Rev) and wield God's power.

 

But we won't be gods?

 

Your position has no foundation.

[coolrok7]

My original statement covering eating (partaking) bread has a different context than partaking of flesh and blood as used in Hebrews.

I wasn't endorsing what you said Vance.

What I say in regards to the Biblical teaching of the nature of God and man is foundational in Biblical teaching.

God is spirit not composed of flesh, blood, and bone (doesn't teach it).

Jesus (not the Father or Holy Spirit) being born of the Virgin Mary took on an additional nature of flesh, blood, and bone as per Old Testament prophecy.

This was for the purpose of dying on the cross to make atonement for sin.

In the resurrection we become like Jesus with a glorified physical form. Which doesn't make us gods.

[thesometimesaint]

Is Jesus God?

 

SEE John 20:24-28

 

24 ¶But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

 26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[sethpayne]

I was answering Vance's comment in reference to "partaking" cited in Hebrews 2.

Flesh is our nature, not Jesus' nature. He was God but became a man took on our nature to suffer death because spirits don't die.

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In 1 John it says we will become like Him in the resurrection with glorified bodies like His was. We don't become gods.

 

 

Revelation Chapter 3

 

21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.”

 

 

Whether you call it being a "god" or not, this verse makes it clear that the the destiny of believers is to become like God by inheriting part of His glory.  A glory freely given to Christians.  How can being invited to sit on the throne of God -- just as Jesus did -- mean anything other than we will become more like God?  

[Anakin7]

       The 2nd Person of The True Godhead/Trinity [Jesus Christ] has a Bodily/Corporeal/Spiritual Body - Jesus Christ who is the eikon of his God and Father.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[danielwoods]

What is meant in Romans 8:17 to be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ? What does it mean to be glorified together?

 

 

Revelation Chapter 3

 

 

Whether you call it being a "god" or not, this verse makes it clear that the the destiny of believers is to become like God by inheriting part of His glory.  A glory freely given to Christians.  How can being invited to sit on the throne of God -- just as Jesus did -- mean anything other than we will become more like God?  

 

These two concepts are tied together. Our glorification or exaltation, is based on our redemption in Christ. 

 

We are joint heirs with Christ. But, Christ didn't inherit his divine nature. His divine nature is his and has been his for eternity. So, we don't inherit his divine nature we inherit blessings as a result of being connected to him. 

 

Those who overcome will share his throne, but it's not our throne, and never will be. It's his. If we share it, it's because he allowed us to. He invited us to share it. But, it doesn't indicate our divinity, or our authority in our selves. Rather, we are guests to his throne.

 

The separation between the divine and the non-divine is and always will be a distance of infinite proportions. The fact that we share in his glory can never be interpreted as our receiving something that we earned or is due to us based on something intrinsic to our nature. And the fact that he has the glory of the divine, is and always will be a direct result of his nature, that is divine. 

[thesometimesaint]

These two concepts are tied together. Our glorification or exaltation, is based on our redemption in Christ. 

 

We are joint heirs with Christ. But, Christ didn't inherit his divine nature. His divine nature is his and has been his for eternity. So, we don't inherit his divine nature we inherit blessings as a result of being connected to him. 

 

Those who overcome will share his throne, but it's not our throne, and never will be. It's his. If we share it, it's because he allowed us to. He invited us to share it. But, it doesn't indicate our divinity, or our authority in our selves. Rather, we are guests to his throne.

 

The separation between the divine and the non-divine is and always will be a distance of infinite proportions. The fact that we share in his glory can never be interpreted as our receiving something that we earned or is due to us based on something intrinsic to our nature. And the fact that he has the glory of the divine, is and always will be a direct result of his nature, that is divine. 

 

The LDS don't claim otherwise.

 

Ye are Gods was said by Christ.

 

It is our throne. We share it with Christ. We shall become like Christ as said in the Bible.

 

We earn it by repenting, putting off the natural man, and in becoming the full stature of Christ according to the Bible.

[Vance]

These two concepts are tied together. Our glorification or exaltation, is based on our redemption in Christ. 

 

We are joint heirs with Christ. But, Christ didn't inherit his divine nature. His divine nature is his and has been his for eternity. So, we don't inherit his divine nature we inherit blessings as a result of being connected to him. 

 

Those who overcome will share his throne, but it's not our throne, and never will be. It's his. If we share it, it's because he allowed us to. He invited us to share it. But, it doesn't indicate our divinity, or our authority in our selves. Rather, we are guests to his throne.

 

The separation between the divine and the non-divine is and always will be a distance of infinite proportions. The fact that we share in his glory can never be interpreted as our receiving something that we earned or is due to us based on something intrinsic to our nature. And the fact that he has the glory of the divine, is and always will be a direct result of his nature, that is divine. 

You say they are "tied together" and then you attempt to explain how that are not tied together?

 

Let's just face it.  You can't present a coherent position.

 

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

      •  •  •

  22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 

It is apparent that Christ gave up his glory and had to have it given back to him and then He is going to pass it on.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Vance

[sethpayne]

 

Those who overcome will share his throne, but it's not our throne, and never will be. It's his. If we share it, it's because he allowed us to. He invited us to share it. But, it doesn't indicate our divinity, or our authority in our selves. Rather, we are guests to his throne.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Daniel,

 

First point.  Mormons don't claim the throne of God will become theirs.  They only state what Jesus said about believers.  Namely, that they will sit on the throne of God just like Jesus.  Revelation is very clear on this point. Of course differences in how Mormons and others view the trinity impacts interpretation significantly.  

 

Also, I don't think Mormons would fundamentally disagree with anything you have said.  Everything we receive or will receive comes from God.  Faithful Christians, then, become stewards of God's glory.  They become "gods."

 

This is a long-established doctrine in the Catholic Church.  

 

Seth

Edited January 13, 2015 by sethpayne

[Vance]

The separation between the divine and the non-divine is and always will be a distance of infinite proportions.

So, God doesn't have the power to bridge that gap?  Humm.  I didn't expect you to go there.

 

The fact that we share in his glory can never be interpreted as our receiving something that we earned or is due to us based on something intrinsic to our nature.

Nice strawman you got there.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Vance

[sethpayne]

 

The separation between the divine and the non-divine is and always will be a distance of infinite proportions. The fact that we share in his glory can never be interpreted as our receiving something that we earned or is due to us based on something intrinsic to our nature. And the fact that he has the glory of the divine, is and always will be a direct result of his nature, that is divine. 

 

What LDS person makes the argument that receiving God's glory is our "due" or is as a result of our "intrinsic nature?"  

 

Your comment, I think, highlights a key fundamental difference between Mormon theology and EV or traditional theology.  Mormonism holds that humankind is essentially good.  How could he be otherwise?  Humankind was created by God.  God don't make junk!  And what He does make He wants to receive all He has.

 

Traditional theology views the Fall and humankind's subsequent nature as inherently evil while Mormons view it as central to God's plan.  Funny how this simple difference in viewpoints can shape radically divergent theology and views of God's intent related to humankind.

 

Frankly, I think the Mormon view makes sense.  In this scenario God's commands and the ultimate Fall make sense.  Traditional views of God's original intent just aren't very persuasive, IMO.   

Edited January 13, 2015 by sethpayne

[Tacenda]

I listened to a podcast from the EV side. They believe that believing we'll be Gods, is believing the way Satan did when tempting Eve to become Gods. And this was sinning and against God. And if they had stayed in the Garden they could still have families, so the test perhaps was to see if they would go against God. So by LDS saying we can progress to become Gods is blasphemous to them. They also brought up that in the scriptures, 1 Cor. 15:44 & 46 it mentions the spiritual came first not the natural and the spiritual comes later. How do we reconcile that with our having spirit children in heaven when we become Gods?

And they bring up the scripture John 6:46.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

I listened to a podcast from the EV side. They believe that believing we'll be Gods, is believing the way Satan did when tempting Eve to become Gods. And this was sinning and against God. And if they had stayed in the Garden they could still have families, so the test perhaps was to see if they would go against God. So by LDS saying we can progress to become Gods is blasphemous to them. They also brought up that in the scriptures, 1 Cor. 15:44 & 46 it mentions the spiritual came first not the natural and the spiritual comes later. How do we reconcile that with our having spirit children in heaven when we become Gods?

And they bring up the scripture John 6:46.

 

God confirms that Adam and Eve became as God.

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

EV's ignore that Adam and Eve were as little children.

[danielwoods]

Hi Daniel,

 

First point.  Mormons don't claim the throne of God will become theirs.  They only state what Jesus said about believers.  Namely, that they will sit on the throne of God just like Jesus.  Revelation is very clear on this point. Of course differences in how Mormons and others view the trinity impacts interpretation significantly.  

 

Also, I don't think Mormons would fundamentally disagree with anything you have said.  Everything we receive or will receive comes from God.  Faithful Christians, then, become stewards of God's glory.  They become "gods."

 

This is a long-established doctrine in the Catholic Church.  

 

Seth

 

Not sure how you are defining "gods" and I don't disagree that we become stewards of what God gives us, whether it's life or glory.