Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[LittleNipper]

I find that all English translations that honestly present the Hebrew text are acceptable. The King James and the NIV are excellent translations. 

Edited January 7, 2015 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

The Bible teaches that the only baptism of eternal value is that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who comes to the door of one's heart and knocks. 

[bluebell]

The Bible teaches that the only baptism of eternal value is that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who comes to the door of one's heart and knocks. 

 

Someone should tell the Lutherans down the street from me that then.  They teach exclusively from the bible, yet the light up sign in the front of their church says "Baptism saves you".

[Flyonthewall]

Indeed Peter was speaking about the OT and the fellowship with Jesus directly through the Spirit in his daily life. We have all we need. 

 

Your question is based on a false premise. That it is my position that I reject everything not in the Bible. This is false.

 

I reject things based on whether or not they contradict the teachings and doctrines taught in the Bible. So for example, Joseph Smith taught many things, and some of those things I agree with, because they are also taught in the Bible. The things I disagree with, are things that are contradictory to what is taught in the Bible. At this point, I put that number about 60/40. I agree with the LDS church about 60% of the time.

Like preaching to the gentiles? That revelation directly contradicted the established teachings. or the need for circumcision - also directly contradicting established teachings - remember when the Lord was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son? or Animal sacrifice no longer required?

[danielwoods]

"Love God with all of your heart might mind and strength." 

 

"For this is the love of God, that we obey his commandments."

 

Abraham was commanded to offer Isaac.

 

Exactly, it wasn't in the law. 

[danielwoods]

 

I already provided the reference.

 

Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

  27 So God created man in his own, image in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

Gen 5:3 ¶ And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

 

So based on your logic, then God must have died at the same age of Adam? 

[danielwoods]

Like preaching to the gentiles? That revelation directly contradicted the established teachings. or the need for circumcision - also directly contradicting established teachings - remember when the Lord was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son? or Animal sacrifice no longer required?

 

Since Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law, many things like that appeared to be contradictory, but were not as Paul taught, and the Boreans (as one example), studied the scriptures and found it true. 

[Flyonthewall]

Since Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law, many things like that appeared to be contradictory, but were not as Paul taught, and the Boreans (as one example), studied the scriptures and found it true.

In like manner things we present may seem contradictory to you, but they are not. They are in full harmony with what has been taught.

You have the Bible only, not "every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God". It is like take a chapter or two out of a Novel and claiming to know the entire story. Not just claiming to know the story but to be an expert on it. It just sounds sill to those that have read more of the novel than you have.

[LittleNipper]

That Lutheran sign is correct, and what I stated is also biblical. A person must be BORN AGAIN. This is only possible when a person allows the Holy Spirit to enter in. And this is what is called Baptism by the Holy Spirit. Water immersion is a display. Water can not save. The dunking does provide a very good representation of being buried to oneself and arising a new creature in Christ Jesus. A water baptism is an illustration to those watching and a benchmark to the individual being so immersed. 

 

However, such works (water immersion & communion) do not save. Salvation is a gift that is extended by God through the moving of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.  And in that vein, becoming a member of an organization may help point the way but such membership does not save. One must actually become like Peter when he says that Jesus is the Christ --- the Son of the living God. Jesus says that God revealed it to Peter and upon such revelation is the Universal Church founded. The Universal CHURCH being everyone who is or will be saved --- all believers combined --- past, present, and future.

 

It must also be understood that even a free gift can be rejected. And God in His foreknowledge knows who will accept and who will ultimately reject His sacrifice. However, God did die for all that all might be saved, but not all will be saved. And it is in this that God predestined that some would accept and other would reject Eternal Life. But this is what God fully knows and is not what any believer can assume. So, the believer must teach the Gospel message --- the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This is the Christian message.

[bluebell]

That Lutheran sign is correct, and what I stated is also biblical. A person must be BORN AGAIN. This is only possible when a person allows the Holy Spirit to enter in. And this is what is called Baptism by the Holy Spirit. Water immersion is a display. Water can not save. The dunking does provide a very good representation of being buried to oneself and arising a new creature in Christ Jesus. A water baptism is an illustration to those watching and a benchmark to the individual being so immersed. 

 

However, such works (water immersion & communion) do not save. Salvation is a gift that is extended by God through the moving of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.  And in that vein, becoming a member of an organization may help point the way but such membership does not save. One must actually become like Peter when he says that Jesus is the Christ --- the Son of the living God. Jesus says that God revealed it to Peter and upon such revelation is the Universal Church founded. The Universal CHURCH being everyone who is or will be saved --- all believers combined --- past, present, and future.

 

It must also be understood that even a free gift can be rejected. And God in His foreknowledge knows who will accept and who will ultimately reject His sacrifice. However, God did die for all that all might be saved, but not all will be saved. And it is in this that God predestined that some would accept and other would reject Eternal Life. But this is what God fully knows and is not what any believer can assume. So, the believer must teach the Gospel message --- the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This is the Christian message.

 

Yes, being LDS i agree with all of that.

 

However, I have some Christians telling me that baptism is most definitely NOT required to be saved, and then I have the Christians telling me that it absolutely is.  Both claim the bible as their sole source for their beliefs on the matter.

 

Who is right??

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

1)However, such works (water immersion & communion) do not save.

 

2)It must also be understood that even a free gift can be rejected.

1) Why does Peter claim it saves us?

2) Salvation is never once referred to as a free gift. The resurrection is a free gift and as such cannot be rejected. All those who are born will be resurrected. You cannot reject it. If a gift is truly free it cannot be rejected and at the same time there are not conditions associated with it.

 

Are there conditions associated with salvation?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes, being LDS i agree with all of that.

 

However, I have some Christians telling me that baptism is most definitely NOT required to be saved, and then I have the Christians telling me that it absolutely is.  Both claim the bible as their sole source for their beliefs on the matter.

 

Who is right??

Easy, both are right. See how is that was to just ignore what you are saying and act like there is no discrepancy.

[danielwoods]

In like manner things we present may seem contradictory to you, but they are not. They are in full harmony with what has been taught.

You have the Bible only, not "every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God". It is like take a chapter or two out of a Novel and claiming to know the entire story. Not just claiming to know the story but to be an expert on it. It just sounds sill to those that have read more of the novel than you have.

 

I understand this is the claim, however there is a remarkable lack of evidence to back up the claim. When this is pointed out, the response is not to point to scripture and study, but to pray and get a witness that these things are true, despite of this complete lack of evidence.

[Anakin7]

       LN were you aware some of the modern Bible versions take out scriptures that remain in the KJV ?.  Sometimes there footnotres make no reference why the are missing and once in a while there footnotes say - "Not found in the earliest manuscripts".  So who has the complete text in there Bible ?. KJV has scriptures the NIV takes out. More homework please.

See http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/nivdelet.htm

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited January 7, 2015 by Anakin7

[thesometimesaint]

I understand this is the claim, however there is a remarkable lack of evidence to back up the claim. When this is pointed out, the response is not to point to scripture and study, but to pray and get a witness that these things are true, despite of this complete lack of evidence.

 

Missing books of the Bible.

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Bible.shtml#which

• The book of the covenant, through which Moses instructed Israel (Exodus 24:7).
• The book of the wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14).
• The book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18).
• The book of the manner of the kingdom (1 Samuel 10:25).
• Possible books containing three thousand proverbs, a thousand and five songs, a treatise on natural history by Solomon (1 Kings 4:32,33).
• The acts or annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41).
• The book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29).
• The book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The prophecy of Ahijah, the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The book of Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chronicles 12:15).
• The story of the prophet Iddo (2 Chronicles 13:22).
• The book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34).
• The Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah, the son of Amoz (2 Chronicles 26:22)
• Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19)

The New Testament also refers to the Book of Enoch in Jude 14; a missing epistle of Paul to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); and a missing Epistle to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16). These writings were important enough to quote or refer to in subsequent writings preserved now as scripture. In addition, Matthew 2:23 cites a now fulfilled prophecy from "the prophets" that Christ would be a Nazarene (someone from Nazareth), but this prophecy is not found anywhere in any existing Old Testament canon. Matthew was citing scripture which is missing now. Another example of missing scripture is the text containing the words of Christ that Paul quotes in Acts 20:35: "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." This saying of Christ appears in none of the Gospels. Here Paul was writing to foreign converts who were not around to hear Christ preach, so how were they to "remember" those words? Paul obviously must have been citing it from a sacred writing that they had. We no longer have that writing. Something is missing.

[Vance]

So based on your logic, then God must have died at the same age of Adam? 

My logic????

 

Nah, that is just your silly argument.  Did Seth die at the same age as Adam?  No.

 

Just more of your ninth grade work.

[Vance]

Jesus called himself the "Son of man".

1. Matt. 8:  20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
2. Matt. 9:  6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
3. Matt. 10:  23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
4. Matt. 11:  19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
5. Matt. 12:  8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
         •  •  •
     32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
         •  •  •
     40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
6. Matt. 13: 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
         •  •  •
     41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
7. Matt. 16:  13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
         •  •  •
     27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
     28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
8. Matt. 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
         •  •  •
     12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
         •  •  •
     22 ¶ And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
9. Matt. 18: 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
10. Matt. 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
11. Matt. 20:  18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
          •  •  •
      28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
12. Matt. 24:  27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          •  •  •
      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          •  •  •
      37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          •  •  •
      39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          •  •  •
      44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
13. Matt. 25:  13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
          •  •  •
      31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
14. Matt. 26:  2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
          •  •  •
      24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
          •  •  •
      45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
          •  •  •
      64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

If it wasn't true, why did He teach it?

[LittleNipper]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and not of yourselves, it is God's gift.

 

What is necessary is a baptism of the Spirit. The baptism necessary is not materialistic but spiritual. Clearly the thief on the cross was not baptized in water, buthe does seem to exhibit a change of heart while speaking to Jesus.

Edited January 7, 2015 by LittleNipper

[bluebell]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and not of yourselves, it is God's gift.

 

What is necessary is a baptism of the Spirit. The baptism necessary is not materialistic but spiritual. Clearly the thief on the cross was not baptized in water, buthe does seem to exhibit a change of heart while speaking to Jesus.

 

But this is not what I have been taught by certain Christians.  Lutherans (as well as a few other Christian denominations), as I said earlier, believe and teach that there is no salvation without water baptism.

 

Since the bible is perfectly clear on the doctrines of Christ and no clarification is necessary (per your claim), why do you believe the bible teaches something that contradicts what the Lutherans believe the bible teaches?

[danielwoods]

Missing books of the Bible.

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Bible.shtml#which

• The book of the covenant, through which Moses instructed Israel (Exodus 24:7).
• The book of the wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14).
• The book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18).
• The book of the manner of the kingdom (1 Samuel 10:25).
• Possible books containing three thousand proverbs, a thousand and five songs, a treatise on natural history by Solomon (1 Kings 4:32,33).
• The acts or annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41).
• The book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29).
• The book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The prophecy of Ahijah, the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29).
• The book of Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chronicles 12:15).
• The story of the prophet Iddo (2 Chronicles 13:22).
• The book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34).
• The Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah, the son of Amoz (2 Chronicles 26:22)
• Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19)

The New Testament also refers to the Book of Enoch in Jude 14; a missing epistle of Paul to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); and a missing Epistle to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16). These writings were important enough to quote or refer to in subsequent writings preserved now as scripture. In addition, Matthew 2:23 cites a now fulfilled prophecy from "the prophets" that Christ would be a Nazarene (someone from Nazareth), but this prophecy is not found anywhere in any existing Old Testament canon. Matthew was citing scripture which is missing now. Another example of missing scripture is the text containing the words of Christ that Paul quotes in Acts 20:35: "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." This saying of Christ appears in none of the Gospels. Here Paul was writing to foreign converts who were not around to hear Christ preach, so how were they to "remember" those words? Paul obviously must have been citing it from a sacred writing that they had. We no longer have that writing. Something is missing.

 

There's a huge leap from "there's evidence of some ancient texts missing" to, the teachings contained in these missing documents equal the teachings found in the LDS church. Evidence isn't there. 

 

The claim is that the church became apostate, and lost something that had to be restored. Evidence for this is remarkably absent. 

[Anakin7]

    LN We agree with Ephesians 2:8-9 100% !. Yes we are Saved by True Grace [charis] = Unmerited favor [charis also has approx 45 other definitional meanings within its anchient semetic world] through True Faith = [pistis] which has approx 25 definitional meanings in the anchient Semetic world - some of which are Allegience/Commitment/Comfidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithullness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the person and work of our Master Christ Jesus. We access True Grace by True Faith - Romans 5:2 . LN you need True Grace -  Joseph Smith Jr. once stated that other Churches contain Truth and we need to gather up all Truth or we will not come out True Mormons. See this non LDS Christisn site that contains Truth concerning True Grace and True Faith and what it produces. http://www.hallvworthington.com/grace.html

Belief and Faith are action words not just head knowledge but a way of Life. Read that scripture in its anchient semetic setting and you will understand.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited January 8, 2015 by Anakin7

[ERayR]

There's a huge leap from "there's evidence of some ancient texts missing" to, the teachings contained in these missing documents equal the teachings found in the LDS church. Evidence isn't there. 

 

The claim is that the church became apostate, and lost something that had to be restored. Evidence for this is remarkably absent. 

 

Then you have aligned yourself with a church that is apostate.  Per this post you should be Catholic.

[Anakin7]

 Or one of the 7 Families of the "Orthodox" Church.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Then you have aligned yourself with a church that is apostate.  Per this post you should be Catholic.

 

Indeed that is the claim, where's the evidence? 

[ERayR]

Indeed that is the claim, where's the evidence? 

 

From your own post: 

The claim is that the church became apostate, and lost something that had to be restored. Evidence for this is remarkably absent.