Can A Psychic Healer/exorcist Be Accepted By Mormons?

[JLHPROF]

 Also, I want to understand this priesthood concept.  I have had some inner world info regarding it and I am just balancing that with the outside "human wisdom".   I think the priesthood is a magical coven similar to wicca.  (I am not wiccan btw but know a witch who is). It has real power, but so do other covens.  What is the difference?  Really I am just checking my ideas with peers to see if they add up.   

 

I think you have misunderstood priesthood.  Priesthood is authority given directly by God to man to act in his name.  All acts of priesthood are done in his name, and you stand as his representative.  It is not something that you can just assume and if done without correct principle behind the action then the act will not be honored.  It is a very humbling thing to stand and act on behalf of our creator.  It is NOT a magic power that we have figured out how to use.

[kundalinisnakes]

I reject your God and do not see how you can follow a God who lies to his followers. Yuck.

 

 

 

Good thing you outsmarted God thereby keeping omniscience from tricking you. Good job on that.

 

You don't need to accept my God.  My God is your God is what I believe, however I don't think you understand God.  I reject your understanding of God and you reject mine.  What to do?  We can't prove anything to each other short of Moses style miracles, so we reach an impasse.  

 

I don't ever outsmart God, I am gifted grace to outsmart the "devil" so to speak, as are all mortals.  Mormons call this gift the "gift of the Holy Ghost".  I could call it that too but it has nothing to do with priesthood so the semantic is off.  I prefer to call it presence.  Being present with the divine within.  

 

Many wisdom paths teach that God is a trickster.  Native americans do for example, God comes in many forms, some of them trick, like Coyote.  Hindus do, Krishna is a trickster yet the supreme being.  It's another way to look at God that is not so absolute as the mormons look at it.  It is the absolute that I reject.  From what I have experienced I side with other wisdom paths that say its ALL an illusion.  Love is the only thing that is real, it doesn't matter what form or myth it is found in.  

 

What would happen if you lost your faith in mormonism?  Would you join the other defectors and go atheist and deny everything that has to do with God, including personal revelations from the Holy Ghost?  I hope not.  I don't.  I simply shift my paradigm when such things occur.  "God wasn't giving me the full picture and I am ok with it."  How do you know the "Holy Ghost" isn'y lying to you about what the priesthood is, or what the Book of Mormon is?  How do you know it's not just a myth that has wisdom in it, that can help you "if it be wisdom" but that it doesn't help others if it is "not wisdom" for them?   Remember I am non dual the Devil and God are the same being, so, God is a trickster and a truth teller.  Discern.   

[kundalinisnakes]

I think you have misunderstood priesthood.  Priesthood is authority given directly by God to man to act in his name.  All acts of priesthood are done in his name, and you stand as his representative.  It is not something that you can just assume and if done without correct principle behind the action then the act will not be honored.  It is a very humbling thing to stand and act on behalf of our creator.  It is NOT a magic power that we have figured out how to use.

 

It is a magic power.  Depending on the semantic of the word "magic".  God's power, is what I consider magic to be.  That is the definition I have for it.  And magic don't work by figuring it out.  Quite the opposite in fact.  You have to not figure anything and let the power of God come through you unimpeded with your own ideas opinions and preferences.  

 

Coven-nant is what I am referring to.  Many magical covens swear to the death not to divulge certain things, much like the magical freemason oriented temple ceremonies.  I'm still learning about covens.  I think it is ironic that the priesthood resembles one yet members will deny it because the word "magic" is taboo.  Perhaps due to all the misrepresentations as to what it is.  Plus, Joseph Smith is a known wizard!  It's proven, look at the history books!  I like Bushman's biography how he describes Smith's practice of Magic as "training".  He never stopped is what I say.   In fact, the spell still works to this day on members.  

 

As for authority, I think this is the big trick that keeps mormons under the spell.  There isn't any.  There is power though.   

[kundalinisnakes]

This may be the first time I have agreed with Nehor. Perhaps I need an exorcism?

 

Actually in truth everybody has demons and dead human spirits sucking the life force out of them.  I get them too, life force parasites, but the light of God burns them away.  You are covered with them according to my guides.  Blessings.  

[DarkScythe]

God is not so much a liar but He will build truth on truth. He will always tell you the truth that you can handle. There is nothing wrong with Magic in and of itself. I do believe that God's power is greater than all of the magic in the universe if not the multi verse.

[JLHPROF]

It is a magic power.  Depending on the semantic of the word "magic".  God's power, is what I consider magic to be.  That is the definition I have for it.  And magic don't work by figuring it out.  Quite the opposite in fact.  You have to not figure anything and let the power of God come through you unimpeded with your own ideas opinions and preferences.  

 

Coven-nant is what I am referring to.  Many magical covens swear to the death not to divulge certain things, much like the magical freemason oriented temple ceremonies.  I'm still learning about covens.  I think it is ironic that the priesthood resembles one yet members will deny it because the word "magic" is taboo.  Perhaps due to all the misrepresentations as to what it is.  Plus, Joseph Smith is a known wizard!  It's proven, look at the history books!  I like Bushman's biography how he describes Smith's practice of Magic as "training".  He never stopped is what I say.   In fact, the spell still works to this day on members.  

 

As for authority, I think this is the big trick that keeps mormons under the spell.  There isn't any.  There is power though.   

 

Power without true authority.  There's the scariest concept out there.

I don't deny that priesthood resembles a coven because of the term magic.  I deny that priesthood resembles a coven because of the source of any power.

 

You seem to feel that God radiates power indiscriminately and all we have to do is "tap into it".  Priesthood power does not reside with the priesthood holder, despite the phrase "power in the priesthood".   Every act performed is done by God's authority and in Christ's name.  If I give a priesthood blessing to a sick person and they get better, I didn't heal them.  God honored my authoritative request that a healing be performed.  At some point in the future, my word may become law but until then I am just speaking on behalf of God.

 

And Joseph Smith wasn't a "wizard" although he did dabble in folk magic and superstition of the time.  There is a difference.

[The Nehor]

Actually in truth everybody has demons and dead human spirits sucking the life force out of them.  I get them too, life force parasites, but the light of God burns them away.  You are covered with them according to my guides.  Blessings.

They do 1d4 damage per day until extracted via exorcism or thetan detector.

[mfbukowski]

My true philosophy is this:  I don't know anything.  Emphasis on the period.  That being said, I have had a lot of experiences, but I detach myself from the experiences because I am wise enough to realize that I cannot outsmart God, there could always be something I didn't understand to missed.  I am open to all that God teaches me.

You don't need to accept my God. My God is your God is what I believe, however I don't think you understand God. I reject your understanding of God and you reject mine.

Dang, that old consistency bugaboo again. Peace and love until you get riled up, then the dogma appears. Interesting. So much for the possibility of "something you didn't understand."

Well it is clear you have nothing for me. I'm out.

[Johnnie Cake]

If members of the church can accept a treasure seeker who used a rock found at the bottom of a well set in his hat to find buried treasure as their prophet...I'm sure that they wouldn't have any problem accepting a psychic or exorcist

[Coreyb]

I feel you would have a hard time reconciling your trickster God with the Mormon belief that God cannot lie

 

And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

[The Nehor]

My true philosophy is this:  I don't know anything.  Emphasis on the period. 

 

Typical faux eastern pseudomystical claptrap. If people actually meant it when they said it they would stop talking after that.

 

 

That being said, I have had a lot of experiences, but I detach myself from the experiences because I am wise enough to realize that I cannot outsmart God, there could always be something I didn't understand to missed.  I am open to all that God teaches me.  Typically the way God teaches me is by having inner subjective unprovable experiences, like a prophetic vision or a telepathic experience, and then confirming that information with the "real world" such as the event happening or the telepathy validated.  It's "as above, so below, as within, so without".  What is in my inner realm happens in the outside world.  The inside becomes the outside.  The outside needs to be validated too sometimes with the inside realm through meditation/presence.  It's a careful balance.  

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on my intention.  I am not looking to be mormon.  I am just trying to theoretically put myself in mormon shoes to see if it would work.  I really don't think so.  Also, I want to understand this priesthood concept.  I have had some inner world info regarding it and I am just balancing that with the outside "human wisdom".   I think the priesthood is a magical coven similar to wicca.  (I am not wiccan btw but know a witch who is). It has real power, but so do other covens.  What is the difference?  Really I am just checking my ideas with peers to see if they add up.   

 

 

You don't need to accept my God.  My God is your God is what I believe, however I don't think you understand God.  I reject your understanding of God and you reject mine.  What to do?  We can't prove anything to each other short of Moses style miracles, so we reach an impasse.  

 

I don't ever outsmart God, I am gifted grace to outsmart the "devil" so to speak, as are all mortals.  Mormons call this gift the "gift of the Holy Ghost".  I could call it that too but it has nothing to do with priesthood so the semantic is off.  I prefer to call it presence.  Being present with the divine within.  

 

Many wisdom paths teach that God is a trickster.  Native americans do for example, God comes in many forms, some of them trick, like Coyote.  Hindus do, Krishna is a trickster yet the supreme being.  It's another way to look at God that is not so absolute as the mormons look at it.  It is the absolute that I reject.  From what I have experienced I side with other wisdom paths that say its ALL an illusion.  Love is the only thing that is real, it doesn't matter what form or myth it is found in.  

 

What would happen if you lost your faith in mormonism?  Would you join the other defectors and go atheist and deny everything that has to do with God, including personal revelations from the Holy Ghost?  I hope not.  I don't.  I simply shift my paradigm when such things occur.  "God wasn't giving me the full picture and I am ok with it."  How do you know the "Holy Ghost" isn'y lying to you about what the priesthood is, or what the Book of Mormon is?  How do you know it's not just a myth that has wisdom in it, that can help you "if it be wisdom" but that it doesn't help others if it is "not wisdom" for them?   Remember I am non dual the Devil and God are the same being, so, God is a trickster and a truth teller.  Discern.   

 

To those who have trouble translating goobledygook I present this handy translation of the above:

 

[flameburns623]

The "trickster God" thing sounds ever-so-much like something drawn from the Northern Traditions/Asatruar. A lot of the rest sounds like New Age syncretism, Spiritualism, and Esotericsm. Which is fine, I suppose, except that it never really obligates you to stick to any one thing long enough to experience true growth.

"Truth may hurt, it may be bitter: but it's disciplines lead to life;

Falsehood, as an opioid, numbs sweetly as it slays".

I think you've caught glimpse of the insight, "All Truth is God's Truth: all Wisdom, all Beauty, all Love: Divine". What you may have missed is that Truth, Wisdom, Beauty, Love require some measure of discipline, some struggle and effort to attain and maintain. The thinkers and writers within the 'Sophia Perennialis' often look afield of their own traditions to glean insights which they can then tease out of their own faith-disciplines. But Guenon, Evola, etcetera did HAVE faith disciplines, traditions which they did not abandon nor meld willy-nilly with other faiths in some ecleclectic, muddy mess.

They had leaders of some sort, preceptors, gurus, or whatever, just as Roman Catholics have confessors or spiritual advisors, as Mormons have priesthood leaders, etcetera, to help them hold fast (using Book of Mormon analogies here) to the Iron Rod, to develop their own inner Liahona. From what little we know of your own spiritual walk, you have particular need to be wary of self-deception and of a self-serving spirituality which may not succor you in a time of deep crises.

Just an observation.

Many blessings!

[halconero]

 

Thank you for all of the kind hearted responses.  I will try to address multiple questions in one post.  First of all, let me clarify that I am not looking to become a mormon, I am critical of the church due to this priesthood issue.  Your answers won't convert me, only God can.  I am simply trying to understand intellectually how mormons view other healers, and trying to get as much of an official answer as possible.  It's obvious that the church doesn't like to give official answers about hardly anything, they remain fairly neutral, which I also disagree with.  It puts it all on members who don't really know to answer the questions, but there are some knowledgeable members.  I don't think the leaders would answer my letters or phone calls if I tried, so I won't waste my time   Like I said, I am not unfamiliar with the church.  I have studied it extensively.  I disagree with what I have found and am stating my reasoning.

 

 Just to clarify, are you coming on here to tell us how we're wrong? If so, no worries. We have a number on this board who either believe we're wrong, or tell us we're wrong, and we co-exist fine. The one's that tend to stay on the board, with whom the believing members on here tend to get along with are those who respect what we have, and do not constantly drive their belief on how wrong we are down our throats. Just FYI.

 

I expect skepticism about my "powers" so let me clarify that they are not my "powers".  I have none.  I am simply a channel.  I channel power directly from the source of existence to do the healing, it is the source, pure Love, or God as it is called, that does the healing.  I have no say over it, in fact, I have to submit my ego (will) entirely to Love and be present for it to work, so "I" am not even there.  I also have dead human spirits that assist that I call angels, but again, they simply channel power from the source, same power.  There are many other kinds of spirits that I work with but I won't go into detail it's not important.  Joseph Smith had many spirits he worked with too, I find his story fascinating.  I also work with deities.  The deities are somewhat of a "council of Gods/Goddesses" you could say, kind of like the mormon concept of the Elohim (plural) and that we are all Gods/Goddesses.  I am God/Goddess, they live within me.  I'm still a normal mortal though, just like any Christian who has God within them.  We are all One, as Jesus says in John 17.  My belief is non dual.   

 

I'll explain our beliefs, and even though we disagree, I won't ridicule yours. Mormons view power in many different ways. For instance, we believe that we, as mortals, do have a tremendous amount of personal power. It can be expressed in our ability to act, as well as to do much good in the world. We thank God because he gives us power at times, but also has given us a place, and the means to use the power inherent within ourselves. 

 

Likewise, we also believe that people, both priesthood holders and non-priesthood holders, can acts as conduits for gods powers. How this expresses itself varies. We would agree with you that dead spirits MAY act as angels, as well as those who have not yet been born into this world. I understand that you believe that you work with spirits. We believe that the same is possible for us as well, but that certain guidelines and commandments have been established to facilitate this and to guard against deception. Though we disagree on the concept of deity, I appreciate the time you have taken to understand our concept. What do you mean by your statement that your belief is "non dual?" 

 

I am not looking for a following and in fact that is one reason I am critical of the priesthood, it needs a following.  It is a power structure.  I don't have one.  I am looking for respect however.  What is the point of being mormon if nobody around you respects you for who you are and for what you do?  If they won't accept your healing because it doesn't fit in the parameters or "normal priesthood ordinances"? Worst case scenario, they think you are demon possessed or something!  Not a friendly environment is all.  I am 99.9% sure (I always give God the benefit of the doubt) God needs to channel power through me elsewhere for healing, since the priesthood would disagree with me channeling ancestor spirits and other guides.  It works based on belief, so I would have no power gifted if I was around a bunch of skeptics.  Just like Jesus says, it is their faith that heals them, the healee, not the healer.

 

The priesthood does have a following, and a structure, as you say. Is there anything wrong with that? I'd also propose that the most important functions of the priesthood extend beyond exorcisms and healings, but to the providing of holy sacraments necessary to return with God.

 

If you're looking for respect, you'll have it from me at least. I can't speak for others. I also can't speak for you on this, but my reasons for being mormon extend beyond what others think of me. I would also argue that the concept of faith and belief as you ascribe to Jesus are far different in the original context.   

 

 

The magicians versus Moses story came up in the responses.  From my non dual perspective, this was somewhat of a play, God playing both sides.  It is very clear in the Old Testament that God sent the evil spirit to pharaoh and it was God "hardening pharaoh's heart".  Any time evil happens it is God doing it.  The concept of Satan is simply the dark side of God.  Sure the devil is "real" so to speak, but not separate from God's power.  There is only one power.  There isn't a "good power" and an "evil power", it's simply power.   "Power over demons" happens because they work for, and are, manifestations of the same power that has dominion over all, God.  Satan is God's employee, you could say, as the Book of Job indicates with Satan and God working together on Job.  Satan, or dark power, comes from the same source as light power.  It's how the power is used that puts it in angel or devil categories.  Were pharaoh and his magicians following the devil?  I don't agree with this, they were following other manifestations of the one God (Egyptian Deities), and as the One God demonstrated, it just so happened that there was a shift in power.  What may have been good at one point, (I don't think the magicians were evil), shifted, and was no longer needed.  It became "evil" at that point.  What was needed was the real power to come through Moses.  You could say then, it was the power of God that caused the magicians to copy the miracles of Moses, but God demonstrated that the power was shifting by allowing the "play" (in reality) to play out to prove it to the people.   The power comes from the same source, whom is identified in the Bible as the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega.  This is the circle of uroboros, the beginning and the end are the same.  

 

I don't know how you choose to interpret the Bible, but Jesus himself refutes this idea when people accuse him of performing exorcisms by the power of the devil. His response is that the evil cannot cast out evil, or that the same power cannot cast itself out. We'll have to disagree here. I would also say that this belief is far more disagreeable with Latter-day Saint doctrine than your concerns with the priesthood.

 

I have a lot of respect for Joseph Smith.  I view him as a wizard/shaman.  I am one as well.  I'm not boasting here I'm just stating this because it is much more common than mormons believe.  We exist all over, in every culture, in every time period.  We often start religions and create mythologies.  People use the word "prophet" instead because that semantic carries respect for those who are familiar with the Biblical magi (magicians) and shamans that are commonly known as prophets.   No reason to get caught up on titles.  The point is the mystical experiences that we all have.  We are all different as well,  we have different gifts.  I am amazed by Smith's channeling abilities, he was able to channel the Book of Mormon in 60 days by looking into a rock!  I imagine the rock tuned his aura somehow and helped him see with his "third eye" or inner eye.  I do the same thing in meditation, I see a lot with my inner eye.  I also can relate to the amount of focus this takes and understand why he needed a scribe, he would have lost his concentration otherwise!  

 

I can't speak for Joseph, but I somehow think he'd object to unorganized mystical ability. We often ridicule semantic, but this neglects the power the words have. While we believe that there have been many inspired, powerful people around the world, we most certainly reject witchcraft and wizardry (sorry Harry).

 

I have no doubt of Smith's power, he was certainly blessed with many gifts, and he did what he could to blend the mystical magical traditions he was raised with (freemasonry, etc) with Christianity.  Well, I don't think we can really say he did it at all.  He channeled it.  I'm sure he was sincere.  I do think he was tricked though.  God is a trickster and likely tricked him into doing this, because God tricks people to bless them, if it is wisdom.  I work with some trickster spirits too, but they teach their methods and you learn how to not be fooled.  Some spirit workers are fooled by trickters quite a bit.  I think Smith was powerful yet tricked.  There are many similar stories of Gurus in the east that have what are called siddhis, miraculous powers from God, yet they follow their own ego and are tricked into using their powers/senses for selfish purposes.  That is always the case with anything that has power, is has to be used wisely.  

 

This is an area where we disagree as well. I also reiterate my earlier statement that your beliefs about God, the nature of evil, and how God functions are probably more divergent from Latter-day Saint belief and doctrine than your views on the priesthood.

 

I don't judge Joseph Smith as evil, I just choose to not be under his spell.  Spells all come from the same source and power, which mormons call the Holy Ghost, otherwise they don't work.  It's really God casting the spell, not the mortal magician.  The magician is simply a puppet or servant acting as God, in unity with God.  So, God can cast a spell, that can make a mormon believe with all their heart something is the truth, and yet that same God can give contradictory information to another, who is on a different path, say a non christian for example, and even though they contradict in the head, they are true in the heart.  They can have the same Holy Ghost tell them another way is true, and be under a different spell.  God is more interested in our hearts than our heads.  It doesn't have to be factual for God's spirit to teach lessons of the heart.  

 

I'd argue that God is just as interested in our heads as he is in our hearts.

 

Nehor: I'm not british, but have that ancestry and have dead spirit trainers from that neck of the woods.  Also, about the priesthood being more powerful, it isn't.  It's the same power I have, but it is nicely packaged in a theological system of taboos.  That is good for people.  That way works and gets people to purify their lives to be clean channels of power.  How is it different from kundalini though?  It's the same. 

 

strappinglad: Good scriptures.  I don't know who Simon was, but it sounds like he was a black magician.  There is a dark side to power, when it is used selfishly.  Same power source though.  From the highest perspective there is no black or white magic only power, or energy.  Depends how it's used.  Black magic only works on approval of the highest God.  It's still God's doing.   Jesus calms the storm because it is not Jesus (the man) calming it, it is the source of power, of which Jesus is in complete unity with.  About Luke 9:49-50,  I just think it proves my point that God is much more open minded about whom he/she grants power than people generally think.  God doesn't do things "by the book", God just does "whatever works".  

 

I think I have covered most everything else in what I wrote.

 

[Tacenda]

They do 1d4 damage per day until extracted via exorcism or thetan detector.

Whatchew talkin about Willis?

[halconero]

Whatchew talkin about Willis?

Dungeons & Dragons + Theology + Scientology

[kundalinisnakes]

 

 

Thank you for all of the kind hearted responses.  I will try to address multiple questions in one post.  First of all, let me clarify that I am not looking to become a mormon, I am critical of the church due to this priesthood issue.  Your answers won't convert me, only God can.  I am simply trying to understand intellectually how mormons view other healers, and trying to get as much of an official answer as possible.  It's obvious that the church doesn't like to give official answers about hardly anything, they remain fairly neutral, which I also disagree with.  It puts it all on members who don't really know to answer the questions, but there are some knowledgeable members.  I don't think the leaders would answer my letters or phone calls if I tried, so I won't waste my time   Like I said, I am not unfamiliar with the church.  I have studied it extensively.  I disagree with what I have found and am stating my reasoning.

 

 Just to clarify, are you coming on here to tell us how we're wrong? If so, no worries. We have a number on this board who either believe we're wrong, or tell us we're wrong, and we co-exist fine. The one's that tend to stay on the board, with whom the believing members on here tend to get along with are those who respect what we have, and do not constantly drive their belief on how wrong we are down our throats. Just FYI.

 

I expect skepticism about my "powers" so let me clarify that they are not my "powers".  I have none.  I am simply a channel.  I channel power directly from the source of existence to do the healing, it is the source, pure Love, or God as it is called, that does the healing.  I have no say over it, in fact, I have to submit my ego (will) entirely to Love and be present for it to work, so "I" am not even there.  I also have dead human spirits that assist that I call angels, but again, they simply channel power from the source, same power.  There are many other kinds of spirits that I work with but I won't go into detail it's not important.  Joseph Smith had many spirits he worked with too, I find his story fascinating.  I also work with deities.  The deities are somewhat of a "council of Gods/Goddesses" you could say, kind of like the mormon concept of the Elohim (plural) and that we are all Gods/Goddesses.  I am God/Goddess, they live within me.  I'm still a normal mortal though, just like any Christian who has God within them.  We are all One, as Jesus says in John 17.  My belief is non dual.   

 

I'll explain our beliefs, and even though we disagree, I won't ridicule yours. Mormons view power in many different ways. For instance, we believe that we, as mortals, do have a tremendous amount of personal power. It can be expressed in our ability to act, as well as to do much good in the world. We thank God because he gives us power at times, but also has given us a place, and the means to use the power inherent within ourselves. 

 

Likewise, we also believe that people, both priesthood holders and non-priesthood holders, can acts as conduits for gods powers. How this expresses itself varies. We would agree with you that dead spirits MAY act as angels, as well as those who have not yet been born into this world. I understand that you believe that you work with spirits. We believe that the same is possible for us as well, but that certain guidelines and commandments have been established to facilitate this and to guard against deception. Though we disagree on the concept of deity, I appreciate the time you have taken to understand our concept. What do you mean by your statement that your belief is "non dual?" 

 

I am not looking for a following and in fact that is one reason I am critical of the priesthood, it needs a following.  It is a power structure.  I don't have one.  I am looking for respect however.  What is the point of being mormon if nobody around you respects you for who you are and for what you do?  If they won't accept your healing because it doesn't fit in the parameters or "normal priesthood ordinances"? Worst case scenario, they think you are demon possessed or something!  Not a friendly environment is all.  I am 99.9% sure (I always give God the benefit of the doubt) God needs to channel power through me elsewhere for healing, since the priesthood would disagree with me channeling ancestor spirits and other guides.  It works based on belief, so I would have no power gifted if I was around a bunch of skeptics.  Just like Jesus says, it is their faith that heals them, the healee, not the healer.

 

The priesthood does have a following, and a structure, as you say. Is there anything wrong with that? I'd also propose that the most important functions of the priesthood extend beyond exorcisms and healings, but to the providing of holy sacraments necessary to return with God.

 

If you're looking for respect, you'll have it from me at least. I can't speak for others. I also can't speak for you on this, but my reasons for being mormon extend beyond what others think of me. I would also argue that the concept of faith and belief as you ascribe to Jesus are far different in the original context.   

 

 

The magicians versus Moses story came up in the responses.  From my non dual perspective, this was somewhat of a play, God playing both sides.  It is very clear in the Old Testament that God sent the evil spirit to pharaoh and it was God "hardening pharaoh's heart".  Any time evil happens it is God doing it.  The concept of Satan is simply the dark side of God.  Sure the devil is "real" so to speak, but not separate from God's power.  There is only one power.  There isn't a "good power" and an "evil power", it's simply power.   "Power over demons" happens because they work for, and are, manifestations of the same power that has dominion over all, God.  Satan is God's employee, you could say, as the Book of Job indicates with Satan and God working together on Job.  Satan, or dark power, comes from the same source as light power.  It's how the power is used that puts it in angel or devil categories.  Were pharaoh and his magicians following the devil?  I don't agree with this, they were following other manifestations of the one God (Egyptian Deities), and as the One God demonstrated, it just so happened that there was a shift in power.  What may have been good at one point, (I don't think the magicians were evil), shifted, and was no longer needed.  It became "evil" at that point.  What was needed was the real power to come through Moses.  You could say then, it was the power of God that caused the magicians to copy the miracles of Moses, but God demonstrated that the power was shifting by allowing the "play" (in reality) to play out to prove it to the people.   The power comes from the same source, whom is identified in the Bible as the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega.  This is the circle of uroboros, the beginning and the end are the same.  

 

I don't know how you choose to interpret the Bible, but Jesus himself refutes this idea when people accuse him of performing exorcisms by the power of the devil. His response is that the evil cannot cast out evil, or that the same power cannot cast itself out. We'll have to disagree here. I would also say that this belief is far more disagreeable with Latter-day Saint doctrine than your concerns with the priesthood.

 

I have a lot of respect for Joseph Smith.  I view him as a wizard/shaman.  I am one as well.  I'm not boasting here I'm just stating this because it is much more common than mormons believe.  We exist all over, in every culture, in every time period.  We often start religions and create mythologies.  People use the word "prophet" instead because that semantic carries respect for those who are familiar with the Biblical magi (magicians) and shamans that are commonly known as prophets.   No reason to get caught up on titles.  The point is the mystical experiences that we all have.  We are all different as well,  we have different gifts.  I am amazed by Smith's channeling abilities, he was able to channel the Book of Mormon in 60 days by looking into a rock!  I imagine the rock tuned his aura somehow and helped him see with his "third eye" or inner eye.  I do the same thing in meditation, I see a lot with my inner eye.  I also can relate to the amount of focus this takes and understand why he needed a scribe, he would have lost his concentration otherwise!  

 

I can't speak for Joseph, but I somehow think he'd object to unorganized mystical ability. We often ridicule semantic, but this neglects the power the words have. While we believe that there have been many inspired, powerful people around the world, we most certainly reject witchcraft and wizardry (sorry Harry).

 

I have no doubt of Smith's power, he was certainly blessed with many gifts, and he did what he could to blend the mystical magical traditions he was raised with (freemasonry, etc) with Christianity.  Well, I don't think we can really say he did it at all.  He channeled it.  I'm sure he was sincere.  I do think he was tricked though.  God is a trickster and likely tricked him into doing this, because God tricks people to bless them, if it is wisdom.  I work with some trickster spirits too, but they teach their methods and you learn how to not be fooled.  Some spirit workers are fooled by trickters quite a bit.  I think Smith was powerful yet tricked.  There are many similar stories of Gurus in the east that have what are called siddhis, miraculous powers from God, yet they follow their own ego and are tricked into using their powers/senses for selfish purposes.  That is always the case with anything that has power, is has to be used wisely.  

 

This is an area where we disagree as well. I also reiterate my earlier statement that your beliefs about God, the nature of evil, and how God functions are probably more divergent from Latter-day Saint belief and doctrine than your views on the priesthood.

 

I don't judge Joseph Smith as evil, I just choose to not be under his spell.  Spells all come from the same source and power, which mormons call the Holy Ghost, otherwise they don't work.  It's really God casting the spell, not the mortal magician.  The magician is simply a puppet or servant acting as God, in unity with God.  So, God can cast a spell, that can make a mormon believe with all their heart something is the truth, and yet that same God can give contradictory information to another, who is on a different path, say a non christian for example, and even though they contradict in the head, they are true in the heart.  They can have the same Holy Ghost tell them another way is true, and be under a different spell.  God is more interested in our hearts than our heads.  It doesn't have to be factual for God's spirit to teach lessons of the heart.  

 

I'd argue that God is just as interested in our heads as he is in our hearts.

 

Nehor: I'm not british, but have that ancestry and have dead spirit trainers from that neck of the woods.  Also, about the priesthood being more powerful, it isn't.  It's the same power I have, but it is nicely packaged in a theological system of taboos.  That is good for people.  That way works and gets people to purify their lives to be clean channels of power.  How is it different from kundalini though?  It's the same. 

 

strappinglad: Good scriptures.  I don't know who Simon was, but it sounds like he was a black magician.  There is a dark side to power, when it is used selfishly.  Same power source though.  From the highest perspective there is no black or white magic only power, or energy.  Depends how it's used.  Black magic only works on approval of the highest God.  It's still God's doing.   Jesus calms the storm because it is not Jesus (the man) calming it, it is the source of power, of which Jesus is in complete unity with.  About Luke 9:49-50,  I just think it proves my point that God is much more open minded about whom he/she grants power than people generally think.  God doesn't do things "by the book", God just does "whatever works".  

 

I think I have covered most everything else in what I wrote.

 

 

This lengthy post was to answer many other posts in one.  To some, it seemed I was looking for "the praise of the world".  Just wanted to state that no, I'm not.  Also, not looking to join the mormons just understand them.  I think power and priesthood are 2 separate things and one does not need to be initiated to have power, it is a birthright.  Also, everybody wanted to know my agenda and beliefs, even though not relative to the topic all that much, so I divulged.  That's all.  

 

My main point it that power has nothing to do with the priesthood, and if a mormon sees power happening outside the priesthood they are immediately wary.  If I channeled a spider or snake for psychic "energy surgery" I doubt a mormon would allow it.  Too foreign.  Same power that the "priesthood holders" hold though it's just a different form, like a different tool.  

[kundalinisnakes]

Power without true authority.  There's the scariest concept out there.

I don't deny that priesthood resembles a coven because of the term magic.  I deny that priesthood resembles a coven because of the source of any power.

 

You seem to feel that God radiates power indiscriminately and all we have to do is "tap into it".  Priesthood power does not reside with the priesthood holder, despite the phrase "power in the priesthood".   Every act performed is done by God's authority and in Christ's name.  If I give a priesthood blessing to a sick person and they get better, I didn't heal them.  God honored my authoritative request that a healing be performed.  At some point in the future, my word may become law but until then I am just speaking on behalf of God.

 

And Joseph Smith wasn't a "wizard" although he did dabble in folk magic and superstition of the time.  There is a difference.

Joseph Smith was as wizard by my definition, but apparently you don't share the same definition I do.  That's ok.  It's not the best defining word to use, due to all of the  games and stories with wizards.  This isn't Harry Potter.  

 

Power without true authority.  That is the trouble, you make a distinction based on a concept called authority.  You don't need any mortal authority to initiate you to tap into power.  Your kundalini simply needs to awaken. That is my argument.  I'm coming from a non dual perspective.  All is one.  All of existence is made from, and returns to, the same Love energy.  Love is pure, then it becomes corrupt, then it purifies itself and returns to purity.  The source of all power, pure and corrupt, is the same Love source.  This cycle continues forever.  Like Joseph Smith said, eternity is a ring, and in fact there are multiple creations and destructions, which Smith termed "eternities".   It is a continual cycle of creation and destruction forever.  That belief comes from personal revelation.  No books.   The magic I channel is also taught directly from the spirit realm.  No books.  I just happen to see spirits all around and we have open communication, that is where I learn.   Christ is that source, he is that beginning and end that is the same.  He has all power over evil because he creates and destroys it.  That is the power, and it is given to more than people who know about the jew Jesus.  Other cultures too.  

[kundalinisnakes]

Dang, that old consistency bugaboo again. Peace and love until you get riled up, then the dogma appears. Interesting. So much for the possibility of "something you didn't understand."

Well it is clear you have nothing for me. I'm out.

No dogma, just opinion.  My opinions about God change as God enlightens me more.  I didn't mean any harm with Nehor, his relationship with God is his, not mine, who am I to judge?  I just disagree thats all.  

 

I don't know anything means don't follow my philosophy, look within and find God there.  Jesus said don't fall for the people that say the kingdom of heaven is "over here!" or "over there!" like it is some kind of organization, or system of beliefs you need to cling to dogmatically.  It is within you he said.  Nobody else can tell you what it is.  It is between you and your maker.  Luke 17:21

[kundalinisnakes]

So far what I have gotten from this board is that yes, the Church accepts miracle workers/faith healers, but no, they would not allow the freedom to follow your inner truth if it disagreed with the "authorities".  I imagine if I ever tried to be mormon and then started channeling my helper spirit guides I would be called into question and perhaps excommunicated for apostasy.  Ok.  I will always follow my inner truth no matter what another mortal says, even if they claim they have authority from Christ himself and have the final say on what reality (truth) is.  In fact I am very wary of such submission to mortals.  But, I do realize that the mormon priesthood path is good for people, particularly the level of discipline that is required.  I have to live a very disciplined spiritual life myself.  I applaud the mormon priesthood for having such high standards of worthiness.  It motivates people to be pure.  This motivation is not necessary for me.  I get it constantly from my guides.   

 

Blessings to all on the board here, I have no axe to grind against the church's believers, I just disagree.  I respect the spiritual walk and the faith of members though.  It's a hard path, if you actually live it.  

 

I think mormons should look more into the roots of their religion, particularly ceremonial magic, and not be so against it or think of it as so strange and taboo, something that needs to be "defended".  Why defend it?  It is what it is!  He was a powerful magi.  Magic spells work based on belief though, and I am not under his.  

 

People like to ridicule Smith's strange behavior such as scrying.  So what!  Jesus putting mud on a mans eyes to restore his sight is even more strange if you ask me.  No man knows his history either.  

[halconero]

I think mormons should look more into the roots of their religion, particularly ceremonial magic, and not be so against it or think of it as so strange and taboo, something that needs to be "defended". Why defend it? It is what it is! He was a powerful magi. Magic spells work based on belief though, and I am not under his.

People like to ridicule Smith's strange behavior such as scrying. So what! Jesus putting mud on a mans eyes to restore his sight is even more strange if you ask me. No man knows his history either.

We reserve our more esoteric rituals for the temple. In that place we are an incredibly ceremonial people, though we wouldn't define it as magic.

Thank you for your words!

[flameburns623]

So far what I have gotten from this board is that yes, the Church accepts miracle workers/faith healers, but no, they would not allow the freedom to follow your inner truth if it disagreed with the "authorities".  I imagine if I ever tried to be mormon and then started channeling my helper spirit guides I would be called into question and perhaps excommunicated for apostasy.  Ok.  I will always follow my inner truth no matter what another mortal says, even if they claim they have authority from Christ himself and have the final say on what reality (truth) is.  In fact I am very wary of such submission to mortals.  But, I do realize that the mormon priesthood path is good for people, particularly the level of discipline that is required.  I have to live a very disciplined spiritual life myself.  I applaud the mormon priesthood for having such high standards of worthiness.  It motivates people to be pure.  This motivation is not necessary for me.  I get it constantly from my guides.    Blessings to all on the board here, I have no axe to grind against the church's believers, I just disagree.  I respect the spiritual walk and the faith of members though.  It's a hard path, if you actually live it.   I think mormons should look more into the roots of their religion, particularly ceremonial magic, and not be so against it or think of it as so strange and taboo, something that needs to be "defended".  Why defend it?  It is what it is!  He was a powerful magi.  Magic spells work based on belief though, and I am not under his.   People like to ridicule Smith's strange behavior such as scrying.  So what!  Jesus putting mud on a mans eyes to restore his sight is even more strange if you ask me.  No man knows his history either.

This sounds like a farewell.

Can this former Mormon/Returned Catholic ask before you go: why did you stop in at all? You seem well read on LDS generalities, given your literary reference to Fawn Brodie, for instance. You also seem pretty well decided that Mormonism isn't your thing.

And you've never acknowledged my suggestion that there are Christian-friendly groups which would be more welcoming to your ideas. I attended a Unity School study group many, many years ago, led by some of the most interesting variety of people you'd care to know: a reincarnation of Ben Franklin among the most memorable. A yoga teacher, some sort of spiritual healer, I don't recall what all else. I'd think something like that would be the sort of community you'd like to explore.

ANYHOW--If you're moving along: many blessings!

[The Nehor]

So far what I have gotten from this board is that yes, the Church accepts miracle workers/faith healers, but no, they would not allow the freedom to follow your inner truth if it disagreed with the "authorities".  I imagine if I ever tried to be mormon and then started channeling my helper spirit guides I would be called into question and perhaps excommunicated for apostasy.  Ok.  I will always follow my inner truth no matter what another mortal says, even if they claim they have authority from Christ himself and have the final say on what reality (truth) is.  In fact I am very wary of such submission to mortals.  But, I do realize that the mormon priesthood path is good for people, particularly the level of discipline that is required.  I have to live a very disciplined spiritual life myself.  I applaud the mormon priesthood for having such high standards of worthiness.  It motivates people to be pure.  This motivation is not necessary for me.  I get it constantly from my guides.   

 

Blessings to all on the board here, I have no axe to grind against the church's believers, I just disagree.  I respect the spiritual walk and the faith of members though.  It's a hard path, if you actually live it.  

 

I think mormons should look more into the roots of their religion, particularly ceremonial magic, and not be so against it or think of it as so strange and taboo, something that needs to be "defended".  Why defend it?  It is what it is!  He was a powerful magi.  Magic spells work based on belief though, and I am not under his.  

 

People like to ridicule Smith's strange behavior such as scrying.  So what!  Jesus putting mud on a mans eyes to restore his sight is even more strange if you ask me.  No man knows his history either.  

 

Please don't leave. You add much to this board, mostly entertainment but we can always use more of that.

 

 

No dogma, just opinion.  My opinions about God change as God enlightens me more.  I didn't mean any harm with Nehor, his relationship with God is his, not mine, who am I to judge?  I just disagree thats all.  

 

No harm was inflicted. I enjoyed it immensely.

[JLHPROF]

 

The magic I channel is also taught directly from the spirit realm.  No books.  I just happen to see spirits all around and we have open communication, that is where I learn.   Christ is that source, he is that beginning and end that is the same.  He has all power over evil because he creates and destroys it.  That is the power, and it is given to more than people who know about the jew Jesus.  Other cultures too.  

 

And there is the primary problem with your style of spirituality.  Without traceable authority how do you KNOW that Christ is the source of your power.  You can assume.  You can even "feel" like he is.  Unless Christ has appeared to you and told you that he is giving you power you really have NO idea where it comes from.

With Priesthood you can trace that power/authority directly back to Christ.  That is the real difference.

[mfbukowski]

No dogma, just opinion.  My opinions about God change as God enlightens me more.  I didn't mean any harm with Nehor, his relationship with God is his, not mine, who am I to judge?  I just disagree thats all.  

 

I don't know anything means don't follow my philosophy, look within and find God there.  Jesus said don't fall for the people that say the kingdom of heaven is "over here!" or "over there!" like it is some kind of organization, or system of beliefs you need to cling to dogmatically.  It is within you he said.  Nobody else can tell you what it is.  It is between you and your maker.  Luke 17:21

So again, why are you here?

 

Everyone here has already followed the Holy Ghost to their chosen path.  You do not live your own philosophy.

[mfbukowski]

And there is the primary problem with your style of spirituality.  Without traceable authority how do you KNOW that Christ is the source of your power.  You can assume.  You can even "feel" like he is.  Unless Christ has appeared to you and told you that he is giving you power you really have NO idea where it comes from.

With Priesthood you can trace that power/authority directly back to Christ.  That is the real difference.

No the problem is how do YOU know that you are following Christ in the first place?

 

Many would tell you this is the church of Satan.

 

The bottom line is he is right- one must follow what God tells you in your heart, but for us that is old news.  He thinks we follow "authorities" when in fact we only honor the authorities because we have heard a message from the Holy Ghost that indeed we should.

 

He's got it backwards, but he is not listening.  His mind was made up before he got here.  He is only here to preach, no matter what protestations he throws up.