A Better Paradigm For Framing The Church

[DBMormon]

The problem for most who struggle with the complexity of the Church and struggle in their faith with the Church have arrived at some minority observations

 

1.)    Since Joseph Smith, there has not been a prophet like him.  The trouble is, in many ways the Church teaches us that all the prophets since Joseph are still prophets in the same way that Joseph was or are Prophets in the same way that Moses and Abraham were.   While we teach it, they simply do not amount up to the same thing.  We do not have the revelations nor the miracles accompany Brigham Young up to the Present that Joseph and prophets before him had.

 

2.)    Due to #1 Most members see the Leaders in the same way they view Moses or Abraham or Joseph Smith and hence the weight on their every word and their expectations of how to be obedient to such expectations which skews the Church paradigm for them and is out of touch for reality.  It has lead to expecting too much from our leaders and over sensationalizing many of the aspects of our history and discussion to make even the mundane seem divine and miraculous.

 

3.)    Some of those who have made the paradigm shift to a more realistic framework are looked down upon when they talk of the Church in these realistic and ordinary terms.  For example for one to state

 

A – The Church has been at best maybe slightly more miraculous then most other Worldwide faiths.

B – The Church makes mistakes and its leaders make mistakes and very Big ® evelation seems to occur only once in a great while perhaps once a generation.  Prophets do not speak directly to God as often as many of the members think.

 

Such examples are often met with animosity and with one being considered a rebel and/or an apostate

 

With all that said would we be better to formally shift the Church’s paradigm.

 

a.)    - Help people see that Joseph was a different kind of prophet then those who followed (we already have this in our theology though we exponentially speak more often of today’s prophets being prophets just like Joseph.

 

b.)    Help people see that while those who followed him hold keys and are Authorized by God that we should not have the same expectations on them based on what Joseph Smith, Moses, and others have done.

 

c.)    To grasp that while big ®evelations do come once in a while, that generally we should hold these men to a lesser expectation the biblical prophets in terms of miraculous events and Giant revelations and see them differently then we did Joseph and those before him.

 

This would bring people’s expectations more in line with reality, it would allow all of us the have needed flexibility in how we view what is said and taught, allows for us to still expect any big change will come from God, and yet much of the zealot (overzealous) like behavior in our Church would likely dissipate.  I for one would welcome Leaders helping general membership have a more realistic approach to what a prophet is and isn’t as it seems they are very nervous currently about bursting peoples bubbles even if said bubbles are based on falsities and speculation and bad paradigms.

Edited December 11, 2013 by DBMormon

[stemelbow]

Sounds interesting enough to give it a go.  Not sure too many would get on board with some of your assumptions (subsequent prophets are not like JS was a prophet) or ideas.

[Jared Almond]

Understanding the truth of things is understanding the reality of things and with that we can exercize our faith in correct expectations. An Ideal/fairy tale like belief of the leaders of the church doesn't benefit us or His churh..  A Real, true perspetive of the people of God will bring out a personal accountablility for your own personal relationship with the savior independent of any man or institution.  It is going to be one Zion's requirements and I believe biggest challenges this generation of latter day saints face.  

[mfbukowski]

We all progress from a simple, rather literal understanding of the world along a continuum toward a more complex and nuanced understanding as we grow intellectually. 

 

Kevin C, of course, speaks of the Perry Scheme and other such indices which have been devised to illustrate this very point.

 

I am not sure that everyone is ready to go from "zero to sixty" in three seconds flat.  You can't push people to learn what they need to learn on their own.  It may be a noble goal, but the implementation is another issue.

 

Ultimately we all learn line upon line- I just don't know how we can accelerate that process.  Certainly you don't want to leave people behind in the dust.

 

I think every religion has the same problem, really.

[Palerider]

It seems to me the Brethren in the past have always seen themselves as "waiting" upon the members to become more righteous so that the great things that have happened in the past can manifest themselves in the present.

 

From an LDS member's point of view the statement "we're not worthy" takes on special significance.      To downgrade the expectations of the members in their leadership for purposes of paradigm adjustment, (and thus the relief from anxiety in perceived problems with leadership) would go against the flow of teaching since the church was organized.

 

Joseph (and most of his succesors) always seemed to have an attitude of "if you were only as favored as I am and knew all of the things that I know, we'd be walking on streets of gold right now.......

 

Bruce R. McKonkie, April 1980:

 

 

We have yet to gain that full knowledge and understanding of the doctrines of salvation and the mysteries of the kingdom that were possessed by many of the ancient Saints. O that we knew what Enoch and his people knew! Or that we had the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, as did certain of the Jaredites and Nephites! How can we ever gain these added truths until we believe in full what the Lord has already given us in the Book of Mormon, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and in the inspired changes made by Joseph Smith in the Bible? Will the Lord give us the full and revealed account of the creation as long as we believe in the theories of evolution? Will he give us more guidance in governmental affairs as long as we choose socialistic ways which lead to the overthrow of freedom?

 

We have yet to attain that degree of obedience and personal righteousness which will give us faith like the ancients: faith to multiply miracles, move mountains, and put at defiance the armies of nations; faith to quench the violence of fire, divide seas and stop the mouths of lions; faith to break every band and to stand in the presence of God. Faith comes in degrees. Until we gain faith to heal the sick, how can we ever expect to move mountains and divide seas?

 

We have yet to receive such an outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord in our lives that we shall all see eye to eye in all things, that every man will esteem his brother as himself, that there will be no poor among us, and that all men seeing our good works will be led to glorify our Father who is in heaven. Until we live the law of tithing how can we expect to live the law of consecration? As long as we disagree as to the simple and easy doctrines of salvation, how can we ever have unity on the complex and endless truths yet to be revealed?

 

We have yet to perfect our souls, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, and to walk in the light as God is in the light, so that if this were a day of translation we would be prepared to join Enoch and his city in heavenly realms. How many among us are now prepared to entertain angels, to see the face of the Lord, to go where God and Christ are and be like them?

 

Although in politeness McKonkie uses the "we" term, I think we know who he's really talking about here........  

Edited December 12, 2013 by Palerider

[Storm Rider]

DB, I am not sure this is a member issue so much as a leadership issue. The Brethren did this to themselves and they need to be the ones to fix the problem. They chose to move cease to function as P, S, and R and became administrators all while maintaining an aura of Apostleship i.e. speaking face to face with God. For me, it is a time for the Leadership to do some serious, in-depth reflection on their callings and their vision for the future. This should result in some serious repentance and an opportunity for them to lead in an honest, clear manner. I don't think we, the membership, need to forfeit our doctrine and beliefs, but we need the leadership to be much more honest and forthright. 

 

How do we have a WofW policy that is in direct conflict with the canon itself? The policy is either a revelation or not; if revelation add it to the canon; if not, cast off the policy and follow the WofW as stated in the canon. 

 

The priesthood ban is actively changing; complete the change and be direct and honest. 

 

Be clear about what is and is not doctrine and revelation.  Be clear on holding keys and functioning as P, S, and R. 

 

This is not a membership issue.

[Alan]

DB, I am not sure this is a member issue so much as a leadership issue. The Brethren did this to themselves and they need to be the ones to fix the problem. They chose to move cease to function as P, S, and R and became administrators all while maintaining an aura of Apostleship i.e. speaking face to face with God. For me, it is a time for the Leadership to do some serious, in-depth reflection on their callings and their vision for the future. This should result in some serious repentance and an opportunity for them to lead in an honest, clear manner. I don't think we, the membership, need to forfeit our doctrine and beliefs, but we need the leadership to be much more honest and forthright. 

 

How do we have a WofW policy that is in direct conflict with the canon itself? The policy is either a revelation or not; if revelation add it to the canon; if not, cast off the policy and follow the WofW as stated in the canon. 

 

The priesthood ban is actively changing; complete the change and be direct and honest. 

 

Be clear about what is and is not doctrine and revelation.  Be clear on holding keys and functioning as P, S, and R. 

 

This is not a membership issue.

 

I must say I agree with much of this. I do think the leadership have done themselves no favours and should be much more engaged in ministering to the the needs of the Saints than to running the church. The two are not the same thing.

Certainly, the role currently undertaken by the Twelve does not sit right with the mission of apostles according to the D&C.

 

But I also think it is true to say that Joseph Smith was different. He was a prophet in the same sense as Abraham or any of the other notable ones. The current president of the church is not the prophet in the sense that Joseph was. He is a prophet among others and occupies the judgement seat by virtue of seniority.

 

The church is under an apostolic administration and has been since the death of Joseph. In that sense we don't have a prophet.

[CV75]

The problem for most who struggle with the complexity of the Church and struggle in their faith with the Church have arrived at some minority observations

While not all who struggle with the complexity of the Church and struggle in their faith with the Church share these three concerns in common, those that do could benefit from one-on-one ministering in a way that encourages and facilitates progress in their faith. Changing how everyone else sees things, or is supposed to see things, is too massive a task and misses the point, besides.

All of us perceive the Church through our own lens, so whatever paradigm the Church might possess in total is going to appear different for everyone until they talk about it and come to an agreement among themselves. And this exercise is not as faith-promoting as individual ministrations.

Just some examples that I think can be handled without imposing a paradigm shift or redefining reality for others:

1. In some ways, modern prophets are like Joseph Smith (or Moses or Abraham), and in other ways he is very unique. I’ve heard many references to him being the head of this dispensation, etc. In fact, much of our recognition of his unique role is fodder for criticism that we worship him.

2. The Lord gives us the revelations and miracles we need (and they are only revelations and miracles when we recognize them as such).

3. Joseph Smith (and Moses and Abraham) had weaknesses too, and people simply don’t share the same reality in how they see or process that. And those who have a bona fide grasp on reality may or may not be in the best or only position to minister to others who may or may not have as good a grasp, or even a better grasp; the Lord will place us where we are needed, if we will go along with it.

I think the Spirit in which we minister, bear testimony, or share our reality goes a long way in determining a) whether we are right; b) how our message is received and applied; c) whether we are the right vehicle for helping others understand the spirit of prophecy and the prophets.

[Senator]

DB, I am not sure this is a member issue so much as a leadership issue. The Brethren did this to themselves and they need to be the ones to fix the problem. They chose to move cease to function as P, S, and R and became administrators all while maintaining an aura of Apostleship i.e. speaking face to face with God. For me, it is a time for the Leadership to do some serious, in-depth reflection on their callings and their vision for the future. This should result in some serious repentance and an opportunity for them to lead in an honest, clear manner. I don't think we, the membership, need to forfeit our doctrine and beliefs, but we need the leadership to be much more honest and forthright. 

 

How do we have a WofW policy that is in direct conflict with the canon itself? The policy is either a revelation or not; if revelation add it to the canon; if not, cast off the policy and follow the WofW as stated in the canon. 

 

The priesthood ban is actively changing; complete the change and be direct and honest. 

 

Be clear about what is and is not doctrine and revelation.  Be clear on holding keys and functioning as P, S, and R. 

 

This is not a membership issue.

 

What has happened to you?

[Tacenda]

What has happened to you?

This was my thought.  His posts or tone have changed ever so slightly.  Refreshing when someone will call a spade a spade.  No matter what anyone says or thinks.  But this is my personal opinion.  And my opinion on this board is not widely accepted.       

[Coreyb]

 

c.)    To grasp that while big ®evelations do come once in a while, that generally we should hold these men to a lesser expectation the biblical prophets in terms of miraculous events and Giant revelations and see them differently then we did Joseph and those before him.

 

 

You are forgetting about all the less than miraculous biblical prophets. What great thing did Obadiah give to us. That doesnt take away from his being a prophet called of God, he just had a smaller role. There are lots of other examples

[Senator]

  His posts or tone have changed ever so slightly..       

 

"ever so slightly"?

 

It's Dr Jekyll, meet Hyde!!

[Tacenda]

"ever so slightly"?

 

It's Dr Jekyll, meet Hyde!!

True, just didn't want to sound too radical!

[Calm]

 Refreshing when someone will call a spade a spade.  No matter what anyone says or thinks. 

You act like everyone else is being deceptive or playing coy and not saying exactly what they believe because they are for some reason not brave enough to challenge others' opinion.

 

Generally I find people using the phrase "call a spade a spade" when they agree with what the person says.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The problem for most who struggle with the complexity of the Church and struggle in their faith with the Church have arrived at some minority observations

 

1.)    Since Joseph Smith, there has not been a prophet like him.  The trouble is, in many ways the Church teaches us that all the prophets since Joseph are still prophets in the same way that Joseph was or are Prophets in the same way that Moses and Abraham were.   While we teach it, they simply do not amount up to the same thing.  We do not have the revelations nor the miracles accompany Brigham Young up to the Present that Joseph and prophets before him had.

 

2.)    Due to #1 Most members see the Leaders in the same way they view Moses or Abraham or Joseph Smith and hence the weight on their every word and their expectations of how to be obedient to such expectations which skews the Church paradigm for them and is out of touch for reality.  It has lead to expecting too much from our leaders and over sensationalizing many of the aspects of our history and discussion to make even the mundane seem divine and miraculous.

 

3.)    Some of those who have made the paradigm shift to a more realistic framework are looked down upon when they talk of the Church in these realistic and ordinary terms.  For example for one to state

 

A – The Church has been at best maybe slightly more miraculous then most other Worldwide faiths.

B – The Church makes mistakes and its leaders make mistakes and very Big ® evelation seems to occur only once in a great while perhaps once a generation.  Prophets do not speak directly to God as often as many of the members think.

 

Such examples are often met with animosity and with one being considered a rebel and/or an apostate

 

With all that said would we be better to formally shift the Church’s paradigm.

 

a.)    - Help people see that Joseph was a different kind of prophet then those who followed (we already have this in our theology though we exponentially speak more often of today’s prophets being prophets just like Joseph.

 

b.)    Help people see that while those who followed him hold keys and are Authorized by God that we should not have the same expectations on them based on what Joseph Smith, Moses, and others have done.

 

c.)    To grasp that while big ®evelations do come once in a while, that generally we should hold these men to a lesser expectation the biblical prophets in terms of miraculous events and Giant revelations and see them differently then we did Joseph and those before him.

 

This would bring people’s expectations more in line with reality, it would allow all of us the have needed flexibility in how we view what is said and taught, allows for us to still expect any big change will come from God, and yet much of the zealot (overzealous) like behavior in our Church would likely dissipate.  I for one would welcome Leaders helping general membership have a more realistic approach to what a prophet is and isn’t as it seems they are very nervous currently about bursting peoples bubbles even if said bubbles are based on falsities and speculation and bad paradigms.

Two things...you first sentence about how "complex" the Church is; is not how I see it. In my profession, I do seminars around the State and at schools like Georgia Tech and others. I am waiting for a call from a law office today who wants me to serve as an expert witness, for a big case that deals with the complex issues of my job. Too me (and not just because of what I do) the Church is the model of simplicity and order.

As to the other points, if no other Prophets were as mighty as Joseph, this Church would be a Utah oddity to the rest of the world. Instead it fills the world, other than a few countries, but when the Chief Prophet and High Priest comes (Christ) it will be a faith spoken and loved in every Nation and State...then I believe that it will filled with more Temples in every Nation than we have operating or announced so far.

[oremites]

 

The priesthood ban is actively changing; complete the change and be direct and honest. 

 

 

There hasn't been a priesthood ban for decades.  How has that changed?

[DBMormon]

DB, I am not sure this is a member issue so much as a leadership issue. The Brethren did this to themselves and they need to be the ones to fix the problem. They chose to move cease to function as P, S, and R and became administrators all while maintaining an aura of Apostleship i.e. speaking face to face with God. For me, it is a time for the Leadership to do some serious, in-depth reflection on their callings and their vision for the future. This should result in some serious repentance and an opportunity for them to lead in an honest, clear manner. I don't think we, the membership, need to forfeit our doctrine and beliefs, but we need the leadership to be much more honest and forthright. 

 

How do we have a WofW policy that is in direct conflict with the canon itself? The policy is either a revelation or not; if revelation add it to the canon; if not, cast off the policy and follow the WofW as stated in the canon. 

 

The priesthood ban is actively changing; complete the change and be direct and honest. 

 

Be clear about what is and is not doctrine and revelation.  Be clear on holding keys and functioning as P, S, and R. 

 

This is not a membership issue.

 

Without being called an "arksteadier", I am suggesting it is the Leaderships responsibility to help members change said paradigm.

[DBMormon]

Two things...you first sentence about how "complex" the Church is; is not how I see it. In my profession, I do seminars around the State and at schools like Georgia Tech and others. I am waiting for a call from a law office today who wants me to serve as an expert witness, for a big case that deals with the complex issues of my job. Too me (and not just because of what I do) the Church is the model of simplicity and order.

As to the other points, if no other Prophets were as mighty as Joseph, this Church would be a Utah oddity to the rest of the world. Instead it fills the world, other than a few countries, but when the Chief Prophet and High Priest comes (Christ) it will be a faith spoken and loved in every Nation and State...then I believe that it will filled with more Temples in every Nation than we have operating or announced so far.

 

It fills the world slower then Jehovah Witnesses according to a post yesterday in another thread and has less active members

[DBMormon]

There hasn't been a priesthood ban for decades.  How has that changed?

In 1947 and 1949 correspondence the "theories" were Doctrine and now they are not.  not because God implemented them then revoked them but because we screwed up due to prejudice.  They officially became non-doctrine with this newest Race and Priesthood link.  We are a much more human led Church then Leaders want us to think.  It FEELS like some seem to like having the general membership following blindly and to be seen as speaking To Christ often and as more mystical then we actually are.

Edited December 12, 2013 by DBMormon

[Ahab]

You are forgetting about all the less than miraculous biblical prophets. What great thing did Obadiah give to us. That doesnt take away from his being a prophet called of God, he just had a smaller role. There are lots of other examples

Sounds like how some protestants commonly refer to some prophets as "major" prophets and some others are "minor" prophets.

 

And no, not all prophets were as great or had as great of a role as Joseph Smith had. 

 

And yet all prophets were and are prophets like Joseph Smith was.

 

God does the revealing while prophets simply share what God has revealed. 

 

If you want God to reveal more, talk to God about that.

[BCSpace]

With all that said would we be better to formally shift the Church’s paradigm.

 

I don't think we should.  JS was no different.  It seems different because he had the duty of restoring the Church.  The Church, having been restored, now has to navigate the world which is a different kind of job.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It fills the world slower then Jehovah Witnesses according to a post yesterday in another thread and has less active members

Only because of an error in judgement early on. JW's had no Priesthood Ban. Black members have been able to become Elders from the beginning as such they have a very, very, very large Black population. One that we could have.

[T-Shirt]

I think the bigger problem is those who have made it their own personal crusade to point out as many human flaws as possible in the leadership of the Church and to portray them as average, run-of-the-mill, uninspired men who, occasionally get it right. They pretend to be the protectors of those of tender faith by bringing them to a more enlightened place while their secret goal is to instill loss of faith.

Edited December 12, 2013 by T-Shirt

[DBMormon]

I think the bigger problem is those who have made it their own personal crusade to point out as many human flaws as possible in the leadership of the Church and to portray them as average, run-of-the-mill, uninspired men who, occasionally get it right. They pretend to be the protectors of those of tender faith by bringing them to a more enlightened place while their secret goal is to instill loss of faith.

 

 

Not in the least.  But unrealistic expectations and assumptions are the primary reason people fall and in this case meany have an unrealistic view of the Church and therefore are set to fall when it doesn't live up to that.  Of course it is always easier to call one an apostate rather then deal with the information

[Palerider]

Not in the least.  But unrealistic expectations and assumptions are the primary reason people fall and in this case meany have an unrealistic view of the Church and therefore are set to fall when it doesn't live up to that.  Of course it is always easier to call one an apostate rather then deal with the information

 

I actually agree with this approach and would probably pursue it if I thought that the only problems were human "mistakes". But the explanations offered by the church and it's defenders for problems that are not "mistakes" but are fallacies in the "story", don't measure up to the task of overcoming the fallacies.

 

As a matter of fact they sort of insult one's intelligence that someone would actually expect you to believe them.

 

The Book of Abraham being a prime example. The church has to do some truly acrobatic intellectual exercises in order to make that book be what they claim it to be. And they have to set aside the explanation that Joseph provided for it's existence.

 

Too many things that don't add up..........     

Edited December 13, 2013 by Palerider