Continuity In Change: Paikea As A Model For Extending Priesthood To Women

[mrmendoza]

 It seems so ... small. Small in comparison to the grandeur of Joseph Smith's vision of Gods and Goddesses working to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity

 

It's heartbreaking because there are no badguys here, just as there are no badguys in Whale Rider. Only people, doing the best they can with what light they have.  

 

Why shouldn't we learn from Paikea's story by likening it to ourselves? 

 

 

 

First off, yes, it does seem small, but not in the way you seem to be portraying it! It's small in any real importance, compared to "the grandeurof Joesph Smith's vision of Gods and Goddesses working to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity"!

 Second. How do you figure that (whether or not ) it is a culture practice that "causes pain to prople needlessly"? I've been in the Church for almost forty years, and I've never known or talked to a single sister of any age that has said or even hinted that they wanted the priesthood!

True,. there was a group of sisters that wanted the Church to support the E.R.A. back in the seventies. they were led( or at least she was the biggest noismaker!) by a Sonia Johnson. I'll admit I felt some sympethy (sic) for her at first untill I read her book a few years later

But i have certainly never known of any "pain" caused by their not having the Priesthood.Only the pain of haviing a husband without it, or having it, and not using it righteously! 

Third, while I'm sure that Paikea's story might make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it is not scripture! You can take any message you like from it I suppose, but it is scripture that we are suppose to "liken unto ourselves"!

 Overall your post was pretty well said, Sometimes traditional culture for its own sake can be repressive, but I don't see that our sisters have been repressed by not having the Priesthood.

Mike

[Storm Rider]

Except that anyone who is trying to keep leadership from others should also be disqualified according to that logic.   There is a real lapse in logic in these arguments which I why I think they do more harm than good.    None of this works unless you are willing to let go of the thing that you deny to others.  It inevitably ends up with statements like this:

 

You really didn't just say that the priesthood isn't worth wanting....       

 

What is the magic in it that makes you want it for yourself?

Juliann, I think you missed what he said. None of us are screaming we want the priesthood. He stated we are called. WE are not reserving the priesthood for ourselves, we are not stopping women from having the priesthood. This is not man's church. It is not men on one side and women on the other; it is the body of Christ standing together and The Lord telling us how his church is to be administered.

[Darren10]

Two things...first, the women getting the vote was to help the church and the state of Utah. Second, maybe we should just leave the PH where it belongs, to Jesus. Then we'd all have access, everyone. Which many non LDS Christians already know.

 

No, Tacenda. Women voted openly and just as frequently in LDS communities as did the men. The LDS church has always exercised women suffrage when and where it could. Long before Utah became a state. Also, what do you mean leave the priesthood to Jesus? He gave it to humans to use and we've both a responsibility and obligation to use it and to use it righteously.

[mfbukowski]

Except that anyone who is trying to keep leadership from others should also be disqualified according to that logic.   There is a real lapse in logic in these arguments which I why I think they do more harm than good.    None of this works unless you are willing to let go of the thing that you deny to others.  It inevitably ends up with statements like this:

 

You really didn't just say that the priesthood isn't worth wanting....       

 

What is the magic in it that makes you want it for yourself? 

It appears you did not read what I wrote.

 

I was CALLED to the priesthood- I did not request it, I did not desire it, I did not aspire to it, I was CALLED as was Aaron.

 

No one has "tried to keep leadership" from anyone!  Who has done that?  So you are aspiring to leadership and you have been denied?  That is not the way the church works.

 

Anyone who aspires to leadership SHOULD be denied it.  I am just dumbfounded by your answer.  It manifests precisely the attitude I am talking about.

 

Do you really think this is about "denying leadership?"  As if someone is seeking power and is denied that??   Honestly I find it hard to imagine anyone saying that.

 

If anyone is seeking power that is precisely NOT the person to give it to.

[Rivers]

It appears you did not read what I wrote.

 

I was CALLED to the priesthood- I did not request it, I did not desire it, I did not aspire to it, I was CALLED as was Aaron.

 

No one has "tried to keep leadership" from anyone!  Who has done that?  So you are aspiring to leadership and you have been denied?  That is not the way the church works.

 

Anyone who aspires to leadership SHOULD be denied it.  I am just dumbfounded by your answer.  It manifests precisely the attitude I am talking about.

 

Do you really think this is about "denying leadership?"  As if someone is seeking power and is denied that??   Honestly I find it hard to imagine anyone saying that.

 

If anyone is seeking power that is precisely NOT the person to give it to.

Didn't Abraham aspire to be in the Priesthood?

[mfbukowski]

 

You really didn't just say that the priesthood isn't worth wanting....       

 

What is the magic in it that makes you want it for yourself? 

Of course I did not say that.  I don't want to be a mother and I don't aspire to it either, yet it is clearly perhaps THE most important calling a human being can have.

 

I do not want the priesthood for myself.  I want to serve others and have been called to positions which allow me to do that.  I even taught primary with my wife for a while and that was one of the most important callings I have ever had.  My wife teaches nursery because she recognizes the importance of that calling in teaching those babies about Jesus - it sets them up for life.  You change lives in nursery, perhaps more than any other calling.

[mfbukowski]

Didn't Abraham aspire to be in the Priesthood?

I will be sure to ask him when I meet him.

[Darren10]

I just spotted this via a Daniel Peterson email. I think it fits well within this thread. (Bold mine):

 

 

I am a 52-year-old, liberal-voting Mormon woman. I am about as fully immersed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a woman can get. I am also a working woman and a graduate student at the University of Iowa. I have lived in the West, on the east coast, and in the Midwest.

 

But I am not a Mormon feminist, nor do the Mormon feminists speak for me. I find their tactics divisive. Their agenda is self-serving at best, and narcissistic at worst. Unfortunately, the media loves them. While I am tired of the feminist murmuring, I am equally, if not more, frustrated at the media's imbalanced reporting of the "plight" of the modern Mormon woman. For every outspoken or closeted Mormon feminist there are two or even three Mormon women who quietly go about their lives serving God according to the dictates of their own consciences.

Any woman worth her testimony fully understands that the God she worships loves her and recognizes her greatness every bit as much as He loves the priesthood holders of his Church, be they a deacon or an apostle or anywhere in between.

 

When the media feels drawn to the sad song of the Mormon feminist, can they also reach out to the other Mormon women who will be able to provide a much-needed perspective?

 

Letters: Imbalanced reporting on Mormon feminists

[mfbukowski]

http://beta.theworldtable.org/content/articles?url=http://fox13now.com/2013/08/30/group-of-mormon-feminists-push-to-be-part-of-priesthood-meeting-at-general-conference/&nodeid=803

 

Women want to go to priesthood meeting when most men are grateful they get to sit at home and watch it on the internet.

 

Interesting development.

 

It’s not just access to priesthood meeting, some LDS women hope someday they too, like the millions of men, can be part of the priesthood. Ordain Women’s website showcases dozens of female profiles, one after another, explaining why they want to be in the priesthood.

 

"Called of God as was Aaron".

I think it's just sad.

Edited September 29, 2013 by mfbukowski

[canard78]

Excellent OP.

Like the blacks and the priesthood, I believe there are many changes that God would love to make to the practices of this church if we were collectively open and able to receive it. The scriptures have many accounts of God holding things back or dumbing things down because he needs to cater to the needs of the "weakest of the saints." The church can only change as fast as the slowest members.

I say that fully accepting that in some aspects of the gospel my paradigm puts me firmly among the slow runners at the back.

[Darren10]

I say that fully accepting that in some aspects of the gospel my paradigm puts me firmly among the slow runners at the back

I've never know. A duck to run very fast.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Darren10

[Calm]

I will be sure to ask him when I meet him.

No need to wait:

 

 Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

 

As to desiring the Priesthood (as opposed to holding leadership positions:

 

Developing Power in the Priesthood

There are several things we can do to develop power in the priesthood:

Desire It

We must first have a desire to develop power in the priesthood. The scriptures teach that men receive from the Lord according to their desires (see Alma 29:4; D&C 4:3; 6:8; 7:1–3).

 

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-a/history-and-organization-of-the-priesthood/lesson-1-the-priesthood

 

mfb, you were a convert so it is likely you did not grow up with this sense of this great gift that was coming to you when you were 12 years old.  But it is something that is taught consistently in Primary and to the youth and is very much in the scriptures:

 

The Lord also promises that faithful priesthood holders will “become … the elect of God” (D&C 84:34). This means that we priesthood bearers who magnify our callings and enter into all of the sacred saving ordinances of the priesthood will be given the fulness of the Father’s kingdom.

Then the Lord says, “All that my Father hath shall be given unto [them]” (D&C 84:38).

President Spencer W. Kimball explained: “Have you ever stopped to [count] the blessings, the powers that the Lord has? All power, all influence, all strength will be yours, and this is according to the oath and covenant of the holy priesthood which you bear” (in Conference Report, Buenos Aires Area Conference 1975, 51).

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-1-the-oath-and-covenant-of-the-priesthood?lang=fra&clang=eng

 

There are a multitude of talks on how having the Priesthood is a wonderful gift:

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/02/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-priceless-gift-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

The priesthood has been defined as the authority given to man to act for God. However, the scope and majesty of the priesthood cannot be conveyed in just this simple statement. The ProphetJoseph Smith defined priesthood as “an everlasting principle, [that has] existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years.” 1 President John Taylor (1808–87) said the priesthood “is the government of God, … for it is by that power, agency, or principle that all things are governed on the earth and in the heavens, and by that power that all things are upheld and sustained. … It is the power of God delegated to intelligences in the heavens and to men on the earth.” 2

The priesthood is a wonderful gift and blessing. Do we appreciate its power and significance as we should?

 

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=59&sourceId=537e925cf971c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

Primary activities are shaped around encouraging the boys to look forward to having the Priesthood:

Invite a priest or returned missionary to bear testimony of the gift of the priesthood and the joy that comes from participating in a baptism. Encourage the older boys to look forward to performing priesthood ordinances.

[Calm]

Seminary:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-study-guide/abraham-1?lang=eng

Elder NealA. Maxwell said, “What we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1996, 26; or Ensign, Nov. 1996, 21 ). Read Abraham 1:2–4 and list the blessings Abraham “sought for” and “desired.” You may also want to highlight them in your scriptures.

Institute:

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual/the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng

 

Primary again:

 

This is for 3 year olds....

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-2/lesson-17?lang=eng

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-5-doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history/lesson-8-the-priesthood-is-restored?lang=eng

 

 

 

Point out that every day we do many things with our hands. Explain that men and boys who hold the priesthood do additional important things with their hands.

• •

  What are some important things priesthood holders do with their hands when they are using their priesthood power? (Answers may include give blessings, baptize, heal the sick, prepare and pass the sacrament, and confer [give] the gift of theHoly Ghost.)

• •

  Can everyone do these things with their hands? (No. Explain that a man or boy must be ordained to the priesthood to do these things. If he has not been ordained, the Lord will not recognize any ordinances performed by him.)

 

 

 

 

 

Challenge the boys to prepare to receive the great power of the priesthood and to always live worthy to exercise that power. Challenge the girls to honor the priesthood and prepare themselves to be worthy to receive the blessings of the priesthood.

 

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/print/primary-3/lesson-9-priesthood-blessings-and-ordinances?lang=eng

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-5-doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history/lesson-47-the-priesthood-can-bless-our-lives-priesthood-preparation-lesson?lang=eng

 

Ask the boys in your class to stand. These boys have the potential to receive the priesthood, which is a greater power than electricity because it is the power and authority to act in God’s name. Through this power Heavenly Father’s children can be baptized and receive other Church ordinances. But in order to receive this power and use it as God has intended, a boy must be worthy and properly prepared.

 

 

There is no comparable activity for girls in all the manuals where they are singled out for attention in this way.

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-6-old-testament/lesson-33-elijah-uses-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

 

 

You may want to testify to the children that the priesthood of God is the greatest power on earth and that it can bless their lives in many ways. You may want to share an experience when the priesthood has blessed your life. Encourage the boys in your class to prepare to receive the Aaronic Priesthood.

 

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-7-new-testament/lesson-15-jesus-christ-used-his-priesthood-power-to-bless-others?lang=eng

Help the children understand that worthy boys can receive the same priesthood when they are twelve that John the Baptist restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Explain that when boys receive the Aaronic Priesthood, they are given the power to act in the name of God in blessing the members of their ward or branch. (See enrichment activity 5.)....

 

Bear your testimony of the power of the priesthood that Jesus had. Also bear testimony that worthy men and boys in the Church have the same priesthood power today and that certain blessings are available to us only through the priesthood.

 

 

[Abulafia]

Also D&C 4
 

 

1 Now behold, a ^amarvelous work is about to come forth among the children of men.

 2 Therefore, O ye that embark in the ^aservice of God, see that ye^bserve him with all your heart, might, mind and strength, that ye may stand ^cblameless before God at the last day.

 3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are ^acalled to the work;

 4 For behold the ^afield is white already to ^bharvest; and lo, he that thrusteth in his sickle with his might, the same layeth up in^cstore that he perisheth not, but bringeth salvation to his soul;

 5 And ^afaith, ^bhope, ^ccharity and ^dlove, with an ^eeye single to the^fglory of God, ^gqualify him for the work.

 6 Remember faith, ^avirtue, knowledge, ^btemperance, ^cpatience,^dbrotherly ^ekindness, ^fgodliness, charity, ^ghumility, ^hdiligence.

 7 ^aAsk, and ye shall receive; ^bknock, and it shall be opened unto you. Amen.

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/4.5-6?lang=eng

Edited September 29, 2013 by Abulafia

[Calm]

The last Primary lesson of every year is about Priesthood (I assume this is the lesson that because it is duplicated is expected to be missed at times).  I find it interesting that they give it the subtitle of "Priesthood Preparation Lesson".

 

While there are more songs about Motherhood in the Children's Songbook, there are substantially more hymns about Priesthood.

 

Young Women's manuals used to have a total of 12 lessons on Priesthood.

 

Point out that a young woman’s obligation to support priesthood holders does not include only those who are her leaders. She may have a great ability to strengthen and sustain young men her own age.

 

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/print/young-women-manual-1/lesson-13-sustaining-priesthood-bearers?lang=eng

 

 

 

Lynne had been called as a young woman class president in January. It seemed to her that the young men left most of the work for the young women when they had a combined activity. Lynne became frustrated and impatient. She had to remind the young men leaders of almost everything. She disliked being pushy, but she was afraid that if she didn’t, nothing would get done. After a long discussion, her adviser suggested that she change her attitude. She suggested that Lynne develop a positive attitude about her responsibilities and her relationship to the young men who hold the priesthood.

Lynne accepted the counsel and with a prayerful heart went to work to determine what her responsibilities were in each assignment and how she could carry them out quickly and effectively. She then expected and prayed that the young men would accomplish their responsibilities just as quickly and efficiently.

Her prayerful, positive approach and attitude worked. The young men responded because she treated them as responsible priesthood leaders. They knew the young women were depending on them and would support and encourage them. They began doing their full share of the work. Instead of nagging or pushing, Lynne began to depend on the priesthood brethren. It was a wonderful feeling!

• •

  How was Lynne’s negative attitude interfering with her efforts to support bearers of the priesthood?

• •

  How did Lynne’s supportive attitude change her own behavior as well as the behavior of those she served with?

http://www.lds.org/manual/print/young-women-manual-1/lesson-16-women-and-priesthood-bearers?lang=eng

 

•  

[Abulafia]

I think that the fundamental question (no matter what religion) is what priesthood actually is.  In my opinion, for Jesus, it was about acting in his name, and Mark 9:38 suggests that so long as the person was acting from a 'righteous' frame then his/her work was valid.  This is what gives 'authority', and any man or woman no matter what their faith is validated by this framework. Many men hold the 'priesthood' in the LDS faith, but even Joseph recognised (and I agree with him totally on this point) that what gave authority was the framework of righteousness from which they worked with.  Many are called (in all faiths) but few are chosen.  

What I think is sad is that a 2,000 year old culture in terms of the societal rules around the behaviour and role of women should be held as a precedent for the mind and will of God in terms of who can act with power and authority in the 21st century.  The Christian communities did develop into patriarchal based organisations but it wasn't always like that, as Paul's Galatian commentary indicates.

The genuine letters of Paul indicate that despite societal norms, women held positions of power and authority.  Mary, in anointing Jesus, acted with power and authority and the list goes on.  There is evidence that women were deacons and servants within the early communities, that they were missionaries and teachers, prophets and leaders and indeed owners of house churches.  Did women baptize?  I would think so.  Particularly where the societal circumstance required it as a matter of decorum.  Did women serve and preside within the early love feasts that later developed into the eucharist and sacrament as we know it.  Yes, I am sure they did.  Did husband and wife teams operate where necessary? Yes.

So women already, no matter what faith,  have had and continue to act with power and authority (and thus priesthood).  As for specific office, tradition has been that men were elders, bishops and deacons (though it was always recognised in the early communities that a woman could be a deacon -servant).  

 

If I remember rightly, the terms elder, and bishop were used interchangeably in many NT texts, but gradually came to be seen as different offices.  But originally elder meant the elderly and aged, and thus wise in the community, and finds its precedent within Hebrew practice.  Bishop/episcopos/overseer developed out of that as I understand it.  The elders for the sake of organisation, needed a leading voice.


 

 

36 That the ^arights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be ^bcontrolled nor handled only upon the ^cprinciples of righteousness.

 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to ^acover our ^bsins, or to gratify our ^cpride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or ^ddominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens ^ewithdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121.36-37?lang=eng#35  

[Calm]

I do think having a curriculum that changes once every 25 years or so (I was a Primary teacher at the age of 16 or 17 and since then---almost 35 years---there have been only two sets of Primary manuals IIRC) makes a difference and that as technology allows for quicker updating as well as introduction of more teacher/class directed rather than manual directed at least in the youth classes if not the Primary ones, that teaching will be able to be more responsive to changes in culture (not in the sense of becoming like the culture, but in responding to needs created by the culture both negative such as morality or positive such as wider range of opportunities for all).

 

Also if curriculum has been mainly created by CES people and BYU professors (pure guessing on my part, anyone know?) in the past, that means almost all male; it is likely that simply given the culture (the probability of leaders in General YW, Primary and RS being returned missionaries as well as more likely having greater educational levels), the expectation of female involvement in creating materials will rise as time goes on.

[canard78]

I've never know. A duck to run very fast.

And sometimes we're known to get in a flap without good cause.

[Tacenda]

I do think having a curriculum that changes once every 25 years or so (I was a Primary teacher at the age of 16 or 17 and since then---almost 35 years---there have been only two sets of Primary manuals IIRC) makes a difference and that as technology allows for quicker updating as well as introduction of more teacher/class directed rather than manual directed at least in the youth classes if not the Primary ones, that teaching will be able to be more responsive to changes in culture (not in the sense of becoming like the culture, but in responding to needs created by the culture both negative such as morality or positive such as wider range of opportunities for all).

Also if curriculum has been mainly created by CES people and BYU professors (pure guessing on my part, anyone know?) in the past, that means almost all male; it is likely that simply given the culture (the probability of leaders in General YW, Primary and RS being returned missionaries as well as more likely having greater educational levels), the expectation of female involvement in creating materials will rise as time goes on.

Is that why my teenaged daughter back when, complained that she heard the lessons over and over again and hated going to church, maybe she was listening. Edited September 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Is that why my teenaged daughter back when, complained that she heard the lessons over and over again and hated going to church, maybe she was listening.

I think a gifted or experienced teacher can make even repetitive lessons interesting (and I do believe there are a lot of gospel principles that we need constant reminding/prodding of due to the human tendency of inertia).  A teacher who is not confident enough or too lazy to rely on the Spirit and instead relies on the manual will be unsatisfying and even excruciating....even a teacher who is gifted and experienced, if they rely on their gift to the point of not working to rely on the Spirit as well will have lessons that are ultimately spiritually unsatisfying.  The simplest lesson, if the Spirit is there and we are attempting to listen, can be uplifting and fulfilling even when it is something we have heard dozens of times.

 

Unfortunately teenagers are not well known for putting effort into developing spiritual awareness...at least in the faith that their parents hold to, they are more likely to see novelty as worth working on than paths already well trod by others.

Edited September 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Senator]

 

I didn't choose to have the priesthood, I didn't choose to be a bishop or have any calling I have ever had.

 

 

 

The way you've expressed this is a little puzzling. Are you saying that you were then forced into both positions?

Edited September 29, 2013 by Senator

[Maidservant]

I know that I say the same things every time this topic comes up, but as long as the topic is important, I think I'll keep saying them.  Perhaps every once in a while I have a new nuance to add.

 

I have priesthood.  I conduct my life from this priesthood.  This priesthood arises from my covenants.

 

I do not have authority or calling or office or ordination in the Church.  What is important here, I think, a missing piece, is an understanding of what the Church is and why men have the calling to officiate in the Church and women do not except in certain delegations (and I do not claim to have full understanding nor am I going to explain my full position here in any case; I'll just mention a few things).  The Church is an Aaronic priesthood structure.  That is one clue.  The Church, particularly the bishop, is a representation of Christ (thus a matter of servanthood and sacrifice, NOT leadership), who is male, and until we understand something about that (why the Savior was male and not female), then I think we cannot fully understand the maleness of the priesthood in this particular order of the Aaronic Priesthood Church.  To say it a little differently, men do not have all the priesthood that there is in the universe nor the earth.  But the Aaronic Church is one, 'lesser' order of the priesthood of which maleness is a requirement of admittance (for some important symbolic and progression reasons both for males and those around them), or to say it in alternative, maleness seems to require the passage through a male order of priesthood (before being fully prepared for the higher orders which have men and women in them).  Women, it seems, do not require this passage for their progression.

 

If we postulate a heavenly Mother who reigns and is actively involved in this earth and the gospel, then I would suggest to you that it may be this heavenly Mother who has designed the orders of the priesthood as they are.  And that the priesthood offices and orders as they stand are a gift of a mother to her sons.  In which case, who are we arguing with if we challenge this?  I may or may not agree with my own statement here, but it is something that has occured to me and I am thinking through it.  What I do know is that men require brotherhood that is devoid of femaleness for their psycho-spiritual health, and I am satisfied with the quorums as they are. Men also require opportunities for leadership where there is no possibility of women to have that leadership, otherwise men will cede that to women easily and women will take the leadership easily, because that is what is natural (women in leadership, men following; rather than the other way around which is an exercise against the grain really; although priesthood in the Church is not fundamentally about leadership, it is about atonement). I was watching the deacons the other day, and what I found just as important as handing out the bread and water is the fact that they were searching about seeing who needed what, their heads above the sitting congregation like a watchtower.  I loved that my sons are trained in such symbolisms and realities such as this.

 

Someone pointed this out a while back and it's a detail but I think it borders on a essential.  If women are required to have the aaronic priesthood, melchizedek priesthood Church passages for their progression or salvation or as a required covenant, we will have to go back and ordain all previous women in order for their endowments and temple marriages to have any efficacy since that is the law for men, and if it becomes the law for women, that will be a 'temple work' and 'salvific' nightmare, to make sure all women are properly covenanted for their entrance into the celestial kingdom.

 

Which right now, they are free from, as celestial kingdom for women is dispensed without having fulfilled priesthood obligations related to the GATE or CHURCH.

 

And a million times: I. have. priesthood.  Ordaining me a deacon is never going to add to that.  If I see this take place, I will have a difficult time remaining a member of the Church because I will experience the fact that deacon-hood is required for my womanhood as an affront to what I know about Who I Am as a woman.

[Calm]

"representation of Christ (thus a matter of servanthood and sacrifice, NOT leadership)"

How was Christ not a leader? We are commanded to follow him.

King Bemjamin taught that rulers should be servants of the people they ruled, but this did not change the fact they still acted as leaders.

"Women, it seems, do not require this passage for their progression"

Isn't this a circular argument though? We may not need it for our progression right now....just as all the billions of people have not required the fulness of the gospel in their lives as demonstrated by God allowing it to be "taken from the earth"...but that doesn't preclude it from being a requirement later.

And as far as the nightmare of proxy work...the same nightmare exists for any work that needs to be done since the percentage that has been done so far is quite small in comparison to what needs to be done. Given that we will have a thousand years to 'clean things up' I don't see this as a valid argument against it.

Edited September 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Bikeemikey]

I was CALLED to the priesthood- I did not request it, I did not desire it, I did not aspire to it, I was CALLED as was Aaron.

The decision to use Aaron as an example of "calling to the priesthood" is an interesting one.

If someone knows more about this than me please step in and provide the correct information!!!!!

From what I understand, prior to Aaron there was only the priesthood. Through Moses and with the calling of Aaron the priesthood became split between the Melchizedek priesthood and the Aaronic priesthood. The new priesthood keys etc had always existed, they were just given a new and formal name.

As such, it seems to me the calling of Aaron and the creation if this new distinction in the priesthood lends it self more to the overall acceptance of tolerance for substantial change in the administration of the priesthood.

There would be nothing to preclude a future priesthood of Eve that is a subset of existing priesthood keys and priesthood administration. The experience of Aaron is far more supportive of future priesthood change rather than eternal stasis.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[BlueDreams]

The decision to use Aaron as an example of "calling to the priesthood" is an interesting one. If someone knows more about this than me please step in and provide the correct information!!!!! From what I understand, prior to Aaron there was only the priesthood. Through Moses and with the calling of Aaron the priesthood became split between the Melchizedek priesthood and the Aaronic priesthood. The new priesthood keys etc had always existed, they were just given a new and formal name. As such, it seems to me the calling of Aaron and the creation if this new distinction in the priesthood lends it self more to the overall acceptance of tolerance for substantial change in the administration of the priesthood. There would be nothing to preclude a future priesthood of Eve that is a subset of existing priesthood keys and priesthood administration. The experience of Aaron is far more supportive of future priesthood change rather than eternal stasis.

 

 

Good point. I was thinking it was an odd choice, because women are called as was Aaron. Exodus 40: 12-16 should ring a bell to anyone who's ever gone through initiatories.

 

With luv,

BD