When Is A Child Mature Enough To Make Choices For Themselves?

[Thinking]

On the Wayward Spouse thread I wrote:

Why don't we let the kids decide if they want to attend church?

Storm Rider responded:

I wonder if children have always exhibited the ability to choose the right at all times and in all things? Maybe there are some things a parent should decide for their children until such time as the child is mature enough to make choices for themselves. There are many things to weigh; some children are adamant they are not going to church; those children have exhibited enough determination to leave them at home. However, if leaving them at home is not a good choice for other reasons, they can sit in the car while the family attends church. There are all kinds of alternatives; a parent needs to choose the right one for the circumstances in their family.

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

[Calm]

There are stats out there, IIRC, that show that if a child goes to two different churches as a youth (because of parents' different faiths), they will end up most likely not attending any faith when an adult.

If this is a concern for parents...that the kid is not just agnostic or atheist....then perhaps what is best is if they decide on one faith for the child and stick with it, hard as that might be. And then when older and s/he can understand more about nuances and doubt, then is the time for choice to come into play.

[CV75]

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

i think we need to parse out a few things here:

1. The difference between doctrine and policy.

2. The commandments given to the parents versus the commandments given to children.

3. The doctrine of children having claim upon parents for their maintenance (temporal and spiritual), and what is in their best interests until they are of age -- the storehouse is temporal and spiritual.

[Duncan]

well, legally at least here a child can't be left unattended under 12, over 12 is fine. If you did leave your kid alone at age 12 don't be suprised to find out that when you come home they suscribed to nearly everything and you are on the hook for it

"I just like it for the pictures" said my 10 yr old...

Edited August 6, 2013 by Duncan

[Thinking]

i think we need to parse out a few things here:

1. The difference between doctrine and policy.

2. The commandments given to the parents versus the commandments given to children.

3. The doctrine of children having claim upon parents for their maintenance (temporal and spiritual), and what is in their best interests until they are of age -- the storehouse is temporal and spiritual.

D&C 68:27 "And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands."

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

With my daughters it was...No marriage until you're 35 and no sex until I'm dead. Which is why my oldest daughter has now had four virgin births. For my sons it was....feed them until they are 13 and lock um up.

Hope this helps with thread title question.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[LordUther]

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

While I agree that a child should not be forced to be baptised, there are many things a parent will make their child do because they know what's best for them. Wash themselves everyday, their hands after going to the toilet, brush their teeth, eat their greens, look before they cross the road, not to take sweets from strangers etc. why would it be any different for their spiritual welfare? Once they're old enough to stay at home unattended, say mid-teens, then it's a different matter. Till then the parent is in charge and they go where the parent goes. You train them up until they are old enough to reject that training. What age is that? That's for the parent to decide.

[rpn]

Our family standards say that people in our house attend church, after you are 18, you can pick the church you attend though you'll have to get a ride to it if attending it doesn't fit with our transportation. Before you are 18, you go with parents, appropriately respectful and in class. You are never required to believe anything.

Mostly the reason is that when children are rebellious about church, it isn't safe to leave them at home by themselves, either. When they get to a certain age, you cannot physically put them in the car. On those occasions, their dad and I traded off staying home and having church in their bedrooms, all of the regular things, reading the lessons word for word and discussing it (usually without help). For our kiddos it didn't take longer than a couple of times before they decided that if they were going to have to listen to it anyway, they'd prefer to do so with the other young people.

I know a fair amount agency. Our children don't get to renegotiate our family standards. When I return to my maker, I want to be able to tell them that I modelled and expected the good habits that turn into a testimony for some. That includes church attendance, but not church belief or rituals.

[Tacenda]

With my daughters it was...No marriage until you're 35 and no sex until I'm dead. Which is why my oldest daughter has now had four virgin births. For my sons it was....feed them until their 13 and lock um up.

Hope this helps with thread title question.

If only...

[The Nehor]

Depends on the complexity of the decision. My two year old niece can pick a dessert and what book she wants you to read to her. She has no say in where she goes or on going to church.

It never came up in my family. All but one of us seven is over 21 and none have left the church or seem to have any real doubts.

[Storm Rider]

Thinking, are you proposing that though we are commanded to baptize our children we should not take them to church if they choose to do something else? Do you see any conflict in that proposition?

[Freedom]

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

No, according to LDS doctrine, a child is eligible for baptism because they are old enough to be accountable for their sins. 8 years is the age of accountability, not the age of making life changing choices. I don't let me teenagers decide whether or not they want to attend school or what time they are willing to come home at night. We attend church as a family, we have family dinners, we read scriptures together, we go on vacations together. My teenagers make a host of choices that I don't like, but there are some activities that we just do.

[CV75]

D&C 68:27 "And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands."

This is an interesting scripture to choose, since it is direction to be given to the parents about their children, and doesn't adress agency. It is also about baptism and confirmation, not attendance.

[fatherofone]

In our house my daughter is 9, going on 10 according to her, at any rate my wife has started letting her make many choices, ie does she want to pay her tithing, does she want to say prayer, does she want to go to church, etc. Basically a choice on everything related to church. Her justification for this is I was compelled in all of those things and as soon as I reached independence, meaning I was completely on my own I stopped doing all of it, and had no interest in any of it and it took many years to come back to it. She wants to lay the foundation, to help her make good choices now so that when the time comes she knows how to make good choices and not just have been forced. Thus keep her from just rebelling and being the prodigal daughter so to speak when temptations come, not sure I am big fan of so many choices at so young of an age, but to her credit my wife does guide her in making these choices

[Maidservant]

All of my children except the youngest have never made this an issue in our home except for my youngest who is currently 7. (And I should disclose that while I always attend Sacrament Meeting and I play piano during half of Primary, on my off hour, Sunday School, I almost never attend, myself--sit in the lobby or go home. Although I didn't do that when the older children grew up, I attended all.)

Anyway, quite often I have brought the 7 year old home from Primary a lot when he was younger than this because some of his issues have been about the overwhelmingness of crowds and stimuli etc (as in an autistic or some other similar spectrum) and I don't feel the need to subject him to that all the time, so we have done the attend church thing a lot more gradually.

However, some times I am aware that his main reason for not wanting to attend church is that he would prefer to relax at home with the Wii, for example. So I consider this a weakness of character, to choose something easy just because it is easy and not want to find the value in something a little more difficult (church attendance). And I won't encourage weakness like that in my children (I mean, I'm sure I do, I'm not perfect, but if I know about it, then I try not to). It's like if I asked one of my children to set the table or finish up their homework or to be kind to people at school that other people ignore or bully. And then they said, "No, thanks, Mom, not going to do that." Yea, if they had a problem fulfilling my expectations of being a person with character, however that is expressed, I would insist. Ultimately, a child especially a teenager cannot be forced into anything if they are really going to make an issue of it (unless a parent is willing to employ violence, which I won't) but if they continued to resist my expectations related to character simply to have a cushy life, then they would lose my respect and I would also invite them to leave the home (except for visits) shortly after high school graduation where they are free to live whatever life they like.

If a teenager came to me and expressed a real problem with, say, the teachings of the church and how they violated that child's sense of right and wrong and that they could no longer in conscience attend, or if I could ascertain that was the actual reason whether or not they knew how to fully express it, I would respond positively to that kind of approach, although I might expect them either to attend another church or let me know how they intended to spend the time not at church, spiritually productive.

[Storm Rider]

In our house my daughter is 9, going on 10 according to her, at any rate my wife has started letting her make many choices, ie does she want to pay her tithing, does she want to say prayer, does she want to go to church, etc. Basically a choice on everything related to church. Her justification for this is I was compelled in all of those things and as soon as I reached independence, meaning I was completely on my own I stopped doing all of it, and had no interest in any of it and it took many years to come back to it. She wants to lay the foundation, to help her make good choices now so that when the time comes she knows how to make good choices and not just have been forced. Thus keep her from just rebelling and being the prodigal daughter so to speak when temptations come, not sure I am big fan of so many choices at so young of an age, but to her credit my wife does guide her in making these choices

The concept of teaching a child to make good choices does not end with allowing them to make up their own mind. That is only the first step; there are consequences to poor choices in life. How does your wife follow up on the teaching side of things rather than just allowing a child to make a choice?

[Tacenda]

My 20 yr. old is moving out today and embarking on a new adventure of being on his own. He has decided, against my wishes, to live with his girlfriend, though in his words not in the physical sense. I don't know if he knows what he might be in for.

And my 16 yr. old isn't too interested in church either, but my husband and I are still holding to him going to church on Sunday. He has been attending his friends ward recently, so it's only working out so far. I don't know what will happen in the future. His friends will likely go on missions, but he has never desired to go on one. He may do a flip flop and go. But as parents, we've never liked to let our children stay at home on Sundays. They've always been expected to go and worship the Lord. I've always held that we've been given 6 days to do what we will with, and giving one day to the Lord should be easy. I'd be fine with my son going to church somewhere else or visiting the lonely or sick in hospitals or rest homes or elsewhere, but we should be in the service of our Lord somehow! It should be always, but at least give Him His due somewhere in our lives. But as it is, only 2 or 3 of my children out of 5 are active. So who knows I might have very few go onto live the LDS belief system. Just like my parents who only had 2 out of 6 stay active. I get upset at my MIL who complains about some things, I just want to shake her, because she has 8 out of 8 children that are all TR holders and active believing Mormons. She is an anomaly in my opinion. It's tough, just don't know anymore which is the right way to go. Once you have kids, they have their own lives and you just can't live their lives and you can't live it for them. You just pray they go the way that is conducive to living like they are supposed to. But who knows what the "suppose to" is? It's been a big blow for me to see my 20 yr. old turn an about face with the church. He was going on a mission nearly two years ago, he turns 21 next month. But then again I turned an about face too.

[Thinking]

Thinking, are you proposing that though we are commanded to baptize our children we should not take them to church if they choose to do something else? Do you see any conflict in that proposition?

The conflict I saw was between your referenced response and the doctrine/policy of baptizing children at the age of eight.

Maybe there are some things a parent should decide for their children until such time as the child is mature enough to make choices for themselves.

Since covenants are made at baptism, that decision is different than merely attending church. If a child isn't mature enough to make choices, is he/she mature enough to be baptized?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Thinking

[fatherofone]

The concept of teaching a child to make good choices does not end with allowing them to make up their own mind. That is only the first step; there are consequences to poor choices in life. How does your wife follow up on the teaching side of things rather than just allowing a child to make a choice?

she explains the pros and cons to her, and lets her make up her own mind

[CV75]

Since covenants are made at baptism, that decision is different than merely attending church. If a child isn't mature enough to make choices, is he/she mature enough to be baptized?

Moral agency requires a choice, awareness and understanding of the options (knowledge) and consequences (faith), the ability to make the choice, and the ability to carry it out. The four elements are not always, or even need to be, in perfect balance to exercise agency. The purpose of life is to develop moral agency to perfection, or in line with the OP, “maturity.” This is why I think the scriptures use phrases like “begin to become accountable; arrive) at the years of accountability; I the Lord should make every man accountable” and their variants.

This maturation or developmental process explains why parents care for their children, and children have claim upon their parents for being cared for. Parents, who have had greater opportunity to develop moral agency, are commanded to teach, prepare and guide their children in doing the same.

A child is mature enough to exercise moral agency when the four elements I mentioned above are in place. The child isn’t even given the choice to be baptized until age eight, so before that, it is not an option at all, and lacking that element, his agency is not sufficiently mature. Over the years until age eight, he is given parental instruction and gains increasing gradients of awareness and understanding about what baptism (or refusal to be baptized) means. Having been provided the objective of being baptized at age eight, he has the ability to make the choice, but can only carry it out when willing parents or other adults and leaders in their rightful stewardship agree to baptize him. So until they are ready to baptize him, his agency is insufficiently mature.

As far as refusing baptism, he still falls under the parents’ stewardship to the same degree that he has claim upon them for support.

The same holds for praying, walking uprightly and attending Church, which are also addressed in D&C 68:27-29 (and 59:9-15, which in subsequent verses then goes on to tie these requirements/choices into in all the temporal blessings upon which the children have claim on their parents to give them.):

27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

So as far as attending Church: he is sufficiently mature when he has the level of moral agency where he: has a church unit to attend; an understanding of the options and consequences with regards to attendance; and the means to get there or to stay home, all without infringing on his parents’ agency as they are obligated to exercise it in their stewardship.

[Duncan]

My 20 yr. old is moving out today and embarking on a new adventure of being on his own. He has decided, against my wishes, to live with his girlfriend, though in his words not in the physical sense. I don't know if he knows what he might be in for.

And my 16 yr. old isn't too interested in church either, but my husband and I are still holding to him going to church on Sunday. He has been attending his friends ward recently, so it's only working out so far. I don't know what will happen in the future. His friends will likely go on missions, but he has never desired to go on one. He may do a flip flop and go. But as parents, we've never liked to let our children stay at home on Sundays. They've always been expected to go and worship the Lord. I've always held that we've been given 6 days to do what we will with, and giving one day to the Lord should be easy. I'd be fine with my son going to church somewhere else or visiting the lonely or sick in hospitals or rest homes or elsewhere, but we should be in the service of our Lord somehow! It should be always, but at least give Him His due somewhere in our lives. But as it is, only 2 or 3 of my children out of 5 are active. So who knows I might have very few go onto live the LDS belief system. Just like my parents who only had 2 out of 6 stay active. I get upset at my MIL who complains about some things, I just want to shake her, because she has 8 out of 8 children that are all TR holders and active believing Mormons. She is an anomaly in my opinion. It's tough, just don't know anymore which is the right way to go. Once you have kids, they have their own lives and you just can't live their lives and you can't live it for them. You just pray they go the way that is conducive to living like they are supposed to. But who knows what the "suppose to" is? It's been a big blow for me to see my 20 yr. old turn an about face with the church. He was going on a mission nearly two years ago, he turns 21 next month. But then again I turned an about face too.

Families are an interesting thing. In my family my parents never "forced" us to do anything and I don't know how or why but all of us 4 kids, two of their spouses our two parents are active but who knows if that will be the case with our kids as there are currently 6 grandkiddies. Heavenly Father as you know had 1/3 of his kids go astray and how many here heavenly days have gone off the deep end sad to say. There are TONS of LDS families that not everyone is active. In my mission we had a current member of the 1st Presidency's granddaughter serve. She was a real pick if you know what I mean. She isn't active today and attends some other Church which must be I dunno what her Grandpa thinks but so many families have inactive kids or whatever and so we are all in this together!

[cinepro]

In my family, 8 is old enough to decide you want to go to Church.

As for deciding you don't want to go to Church, that number is apparently somewhere past 39.

[Duncan]

In my family, 8 is old enough to decide you want to go to Church.

As for deciding you don't want to go to Church, that number is apparently somewhere past 39.

you have two choices, you can go willing or unwillingly!

[ERayR]

On the Wayward Spouse thread I wrote:

Storm Rider responded:

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

Said child still receives food clothing and shelter from parent. Until said child can and does provide for themselves they are subject to said child's parents and it is the parents decision how these things are handled.

[kassie]

i think we need to parse out a few things here:

1. The difference between doctrine and policy.

2. The commandments given to the parents versus the commandments given to children.

3. The doctrine of children having claim upon parents for their maintenance (temporal and spiritual), and what is in their best interests until they are of age -- the storehouse is temporal and spiritual.

I have never known an 8 year old in my life who understood the ramifications of choosing "not to be baptized into the 'Faith of their Fathers.'" I believe children are going to do what is expected of them. Do they have a testimony of the Gospel at 8? Possibly. Possibly, also, it may be enough for them that their parents, grandparents, older siblings, teachers, etc. have a testimony. By no means does this mean they are "locked in for a lifetime." As they mature and grow, if they make the decision to leave the Church then that will be their decision.

But I have read statistics that if you raise your children with no religious background at all (like that would happen in our family!) they are more prone to cults as they mature. I wouldn't want to risk that.