When Is A Child Mature Enough To Make Choices For Themselves?

[ERayR]

My 20 yr. old is moving out today and embarking on a new adventure of being on his own. He has decided, against my wishes, to live with his girlfriend, though in his words not in the physical sense. I don't know if he knows what he might be in for.

And my 16 yr. old isn't too interested in church either, but my husband and I are still holding to him going to church on Sunday. He has been attending his friends ward recently, so it's only working out so far. I don't know what will happen in the future. His friends will likely go on missions, but he has never desired to go on one. He may do a flip flop and go. But as parents, we've never liked to let our children stay at home on Sundays. They've always been expected to go and worship the Lord. I've always held that we've been given 6 days to do what we will with, and giving one day to the Lord should be easy. I'd be fine with my son going to church somewhere else or visiting the lonely or sick in hospitals or rest homes or elsewhere, but we should be in the service of our Lord somehow! It should be always, but at least give Him His due somewhere in our lives. But as it is, only 2 or 3 of my children out of 5 are active. So who knows I might have very few go onto live the LDS belief system. Just like my parents who only had 2 out of 6 stay active. I get upset at my MIL who complains about some things, I just want to shake her, because she has 8 out of 8 children that are all TR holders and active believing Mormons. She is an anomaly in my opinion. It's tough, just don't know anymore which is the right way to go. Once you have kids, they have their own lives and you just can't live their lives and you can't live it for them. You just pray they go the way that is conducive to living like they are supposed to. But who knows what the "suppose to" is? It's been a big blow for me to see my 20 yr. old turn an about face with the church. He was going on a mission nearly two years ago, he turns 21 next month. But then again I turned an about face too.

Some are blessed with easy kids and some are blessed with the difficult ones.

[kassie]

In my family, 8 is old enough to decide you want to go to Church.

As for deciding you don't want to go to Church, that number is apparently somewhere past 39.

I am so laughing. Isn't that the truth! When I was about 14 I decided I didn't like my YW class and I informed my mother I wasn't going to go anymore. She just stared at me. She said "As long as you live in THIS house, and eat the food your father provides for us, you WILL go to YW and you WILL go to sacrament meetings. If you want to sit and stare at the wall that is your business but you will get up on Sunday mornings and go to church with your family. This is not open for discussion." I looked at her once and decided I didn't want to be slapped into next Tuesday. Now I thank her. (Thanks Mom!)

[CV75]

I have never known an 8 year old in my life who understood the ramifications of choosing "not to be baptized into the 'Faith of their Fathers.'" I believe children are going to do what is expected of them. Do they have a testimony of the Gospel at 8? Possibly. Possibly, also, it may be enough for them that their parents, grandparents, older siblings, teachers, etc. have a testimony. By no means does this mean they are "locked in for a lifetime." As they mature and grow, if they make the decision to leave the Church then that will be their decision.

But I have read statistics that if you raise your children with no religious background at all (like that would happen in our family!) they are more prone to cults as they mature. I wouldn't want to risk that.

Yes, as I tried to show in #20, four elements (for te sake of discussion) have to be in place for a child to have “mature” moral agency, and where he lacks one or more of these elements, or where his agency is weak or undeveloped by virtue of his youth, he has claim upon his parents, and his parents are given commandments in relation to that.

I think they know some ramifications, abide by some expectations, have some or some kind of testimony, etc.

Edited August 7, 2013 by CV75

[kassie]

Moral agency requires a choice, awareness and understanding of the options (knowledge) and consequences (faith), the ability to make the choice, and the ability to carry it out. The four elements are not always, or even need to be, in perfect balance to exercise agency. The purpose of life is to develop moral agency to perfection, or in line with the OP, “maturity.” This is why I think the scriptures use phrases like “begin to become accountable; arrive) at the years of accountability; I the Lord should make every man accountable” and their variants.

This maturation or developmental process explains why parents care for their children, and children have claim upon their parents for being cared for. Parents, who have had greater opportunity to develop moral agency, are commanded to teach, prepare and guide their children in doing the same.

A child is mature enough to exercise moral agency when the four elements I mentioned above are in place. The child isn’t even given the choice to be baptized until age eight, so before that, it is not an option at all, and lacking that element, his agency is not sufficiently mature. Over the years until age eight, he is given parental instruction and gains increasing gradients of awareness and understanding about what baptism (or refusal to be baptized) means. Having been provided the objective of being baptized at age eight, he has the ability to make the choice, but can only carry it out when willing parents or other adults and leaders in their rightful stewardship agree to baptize him. So until they are ready to baptize him, his agency is insufficiently mature.

As far as refusing baptism, he still falls under the parents’ stewardship to the same degree that he has claim upon them for support.

The same holds for praying, walking uprightly and attending Church, which are also addressed in D&C 68:27-29 (and 59:9-15, which in subsequent verses then goes on to tie these requirements/choices into in all the temporal blessings upon which the children have claim on their parents to give them.):

27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

So as far as attending Church: he is sufficiently mature when he has the level of moral agency where he: has a church unit to attend; an understanding of the options and consequences with regards to attendance; and the means to get there or to stay home, all without infringing on his parents’ agency as they are obligated to exercise it in their stewardship.

I am in total agreement with you on this one. It is our responsibility as parents to provide the obligation for stewardship by the example we set. I have seen many inactive (or at least less active) members who rarely come to church, don't hold a TR, etc. who still expect their child to be baptized...and they usually are. Then they go home to a family where stewardship is not a factor...or at least a small factor. This is not the example that I personally believe Heavenly Father wants us to set.

[CV75]

I am in total agreement with you on this one. It is our responsibility as parents to provide the obligation for stewardship by the example we set. I have seen many inactive (or at least less active) members who rarely come to church, don't hold a TR, etc. who still expect their child to be baptized...and they usually are. Then they go home to a family where stewardship is not a factor...or at least a small factor. This is not the example that I personally believe Heavenly Father wants us to set.

It also occurred to me that the principle of agency cannot be segregated from the principle of stewardship. We all have divinely-appointed stewardships to influence and serve others, and are also part of others’ divinely-appointed stewardships that influence and serve us. None of us pass through our mortal probation in isolation, and the child-parent relationship seems to bear this out a bit more dramatically than other relationships.

[cinepro]

Deseret News:

Ask Angela: It's unfair that I'm forced to go to church

Dear Angela,

I’ve decided that I don’t want to be LDS anymore, but because I’m only 16 my parents force me to go to church with them. They say that once I’m over 18 like my brothers I can make my own decisions about how I spend my Sunday mornings. I know my parents love me but I think this is so unfair and I don’t think it’s their place to tell me what to believe. Do you think it’s possible for me to get them to change their rules? Or what is a good way to deal with this situation?

Thanks,

No Church for Amy

[Tacenda]

Sorry to bend the rule again, but the topic that this would fit under is now locked.  I just had to share this Youtube of these kids.  They are amazing, I think they made decisions quite young and all on their own.  The parents homeschooled and several of the children are in college or have their masters while most kids are still in HS.  ETA:  Forgot to post the link!  http://www.today.com/moms/meet-brainy-bunch-family-7-kids-college-age-12-2D79669284?cid=social_20140515_11715474

Edited May 16, 2014 by Tacenda

[stemelbow]

In a sense my 2 year old is mature to make choices for herself. In another sense I'm not mature enough to make choices for myself.

[thesometimesaint]

Until they are 18 years old give them just as much autonomy and self directions as they can responsibly handle. IE; I'm not about to give my 9 year old granddaughter the key to my car, but if my 21 year old granddaughter asked I wouldn't hesitate. She has her own car that she is paying for so I don't have to worry about that.

[ERayR]

On the Wayward Spouse thread I wrote:

Storm Rider responded:

According the LDS doctrine, a child may choose to be baptized at the age of eight. Does that same child have the agency to choose to not attend church?

 

Depends upon his/her parents.  A parents responsibility is to school their children in correct principles.  If they choose to make church part of that instruction they then decide when to let the child not attend.   An analogous question would be when does a child have the agency to not attend school.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am thinking at 18 or until the kid goes out on his own. Then a child can do what he wants. I should point out that some people will never be mature enough to make their own decisions.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[busybee]

After a constant battle for more than a year we 'allowed' our 16 yr old son to make his own decision about attending church. That was 5 years ago. The contention in the home was detrimental to the whole family. I know now that my reaction, which arose from pure panic on my part, caused a lot of this contention,. I know that church has never been a 'happy' place for him. I carry a lot of guilt around because some of that was my doing (worrying more about what other people would think than how he felt about various things). Some, however, was due to bullying from some YM and from immature leaders, and some because he had no friends at church. He is a good person and a wonderful father. I wonder sometimes if some people have a 'better shot' at celestial glory from outside the church than within. Could that possibly be true?

 

When we told him that we were no longer going to fight with him about attending church, we made sure that he understood that we were not going to accept responsibility for the choices he made. He would be accountable to Heavenly Father if he chose to stop attending church and obeying the commandments. He made the decision to stop coming to church, and we were, and still are, heartbroken. But, our focus now is making sure that he knows we love him and are proud of the man he has become and also that the church will never be more important to us than what he and his family are. He knows we don't support all the choices he has made (he lives with his girlfriend and their daughter) but he knows that we love him and his family unconditionally.

 

I don't often talk church with him because I can feel the desperation creeping in to my voice when I do, and so can he, and that is counter-productive.

 

Was he mature enough to make the decision? I think he was. As I said, he is a good person and is happy where he is in life at the moment.

 

We will always have faith that in due time, in the Lord's time, he will come back.

Edited May 16, 2014 by busybee

[The Nehor]

Necromancers are supposed to be burned as witches. Be careful of the thread necromancy.

[thesometimesaint]

According to the Bible, we are all God's children. This means that it is up to the father himself wether or not he wishes to make these children go to church or not, and that it is a sin to go against god's will

 

That's a stretch.

[stemelbow]

After a constant battle for more than a year we 'allowed' our 16 yr old son to make his own decision about attending church. That was 5 years ago. The contention in the home was detrimental to the whole family. I know now that my reaction, which arose from pure panic on my part, caused a lot of this contention,. I know that church has never been a 'happy' place for him. I carry a lot of guilt around because some of that was my doing (worrying more about what other people would think than how he felt about various things). Some, however, was due to bullying from some YM and from immature leaders, and some because he had no friends at church. He is a good person and a wonderful father. I wonder sometimes if some people have a 'better shot' at celestial glory from outside the church than within. Could that possibly be true?

 

When we told him that we were no longer going to fight with him about attending church, we made sure that he understood that we were not going to accept responsibility for the choices he made. He would be accountable to Heavenly Father if he chose to stop attending church and obeying the commandments. He made the decision to stop coming to church, and we were, and still are, heartbroken. But, our focus now is making sure that he knows we love him and are proud of the man he has become and also that the church will never be more important to us than what he and his family are. He knows we don't support all the choices he has made (he lives with his girlfriend and their daughter) but he knows that we love him and his family unconditionally.

 

I don't often talk church with him because I can feel the desperation creeping in to my voice when I do, and so can he, and that is counter-productive.

 

Was he mature enough to make the decision? I think he was. As I said, he is a good person and is happy where he is in life at the moment.

 

We will always have faith that in due time, in the Lord's time, he will come back.

We all have our own journey. People learn and grow in their own way and some, I would say, are better off outside the Church. Some will come back around, be in a better place in life and we'll fall in love or back in love with the Church.