Tithing Means 10% Gross Income. Period

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

When dealing with an all volunteer organization one should not try to do away with discussion.

[ERayR]

So you pay tithing on a birthday present? If someone gives your children clothing, do you pay tithing on it? I pay on my income, not in every increase. If you want to pay more, there are other methods to donate offerings.

Only if you want to. I was only pointing out a deficiency in your original rationalization. I personally do not picture God as being a nit picker. I think he may have some animus toward nit picking rationalizations. Figure out how you want to figure out your tithing then pay it or not pay it. It is between you and God. If you find something that works for you and you will be comfortable standing before God and telling him you kept the law of the tithes then go fr it. But please forget the public justifications for a private matter.

[Senator]

When dealing with an all volunteer organization one should not try to do away with discussion.

??

[Storm Rider]

Those that demand a law that is spelled out like the law of Moses should justly have to live such a law for eternity. However, the gospel of Jesus Christ is summed up in the two great commandments; its entire objective is to teach individuals to live by the Spirit. If we are overcome by our greed and the searching for ever more complex strategies to steal from God, go for it. The Church will not stand in your way; but there will be a day of reckoning where we will each stand before the bar of God to be judged. I doubt seriously if the question will be, "Did you pay 10% of your income?" I suspect it will be the far more demanding, "How did you love me with all your heart, might, mind, and strength?" Sniping each other about how little tithe we can rationalize ourselves into paying is the wrong answer to the question of being a full tithe payer. How do we rob God? By our tithes and offerings! Much to the dismay and confusion of our critics, no one will check up on you to determine if you are paying a specific amount. The only question we are asked is if we are a full tithe payer and we, after a honest talk with God, provide an answer. There is no need for a feeling of guilt to pay more or less; pay a full tithe.

[Freedom]

But please forget the public justifications for a private matter.

A question was asked and I provided my opinion. I see the error in your argument but would not be so presumptuous to call it a public justification for a private matter. I pay tithes on what I earn. People are quick to distinguish between net and gross but often do not understand the complexity of how deductions work.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Since I can't make a thread, I have a tithing question. Do we have to pay tithing on tax refunds we get?

[ERayR]

Since I can't make a thread, I have a tithing question. Do we have to pay tithing on tax refunds we get?

 

The correct answer is:  It depends. 

[bluebell]

The correct answer is:  It depends. 

 

 

 

I'm convince that God does not care one way or the other.  I think all that matters to Him is that we honestly and sincerely believe that we are paying a full tithe.

[Duncan]

I don't pay on tax junk, in Canada we get a GST cheque every 4 months as well so i've tithed on those already so that moolah is tith-free-it's like God giving a double blessing!

[sdc999]

Dear Mr. Monson,

 

Due to the 5 pages of debate going on about tithing, could you please readdress the issue of tithing in a more clear and concise manner?    

[UtahTexan]

My mission president said it was INCREASE.  He said what you pay in taxes and to live is not increase.  So, you pay 10% after what you have left.

 

I have always done that...and always been blessed.  I think it is the intent of your heart.

[theplains]

Since I can't make a thread, I have a tithing question. Do we have to pay tithing on tax refunds we get?

 

A tax refund received in 2014 is not considered income for the 2014 taxation year. So by

the letter of the law, it does not need to be tithed.  Its all the Lord's money anyways. What

you do with it is between you and Him. That is the spirit of the law. Some believe we are not

restricted by the 10% tithe so they actually can afford to give a lot more.  And don't forget

that its tithes + offerings. We have a tendency to ignore the latter.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[pogi]

Since I can't make a thread, I have a tithing question. Do we have to pay tithing on tax refunds we get?

 

Do you pay tithing on gross or net?  If you pay tithing on gross, then you have already payed tithing on that increase, if you pay tithing on net, then you have not yet been tithed on that increase and should probably pay on your return for an honest tithe in my humble opinioin.

Edited March 2, 2015 by pogi

[pogi]

A tax refund received in 2014 is not considered income for the 2014 taxation year. So by

the letter of the law, it does not need to be tithed.

 

Actually it is not considered income for 2014 because it has already been calculated as gross income - hence the tax.  It is money that you already earned and the government is giving it back.  Did you pay tithing on that income or not?

[theplains]

Actually it is not considered income for 2014 because it has already been calculated as gross income - hence the tax.  It is money that you already earned and the government is giving it back.  Did you pay tithing on that income or not?

 

The tithe is paid on the income.  A refund is not considered income.

 

Jim

[Duncan]

A tax refund received in 2014 is not considered income for the 2014 taxation year. So by

the letter of the law, it does not need to be tithed.  Its all the Lord's money anyways. What

you do with it is between you and Him. That is the spirit of the law. Some believe we are not

restricted by the 10% tithe so they actually can afford to give a lot more.  And don't forget

that its tithes + offerings. We have a tendency to ignore the latter.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

I don't neglect that offering part, I am offering to give them my tithing so I am covered

[DBMormon]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

you know my feeling.  

 

Here is the Lord's - 

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income.No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

 

 

and here is an article that examines what the Lord's meant by 1828 standards

 

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/lds-tithing-in-a-word/

 

 

How does Websters 1828 dictionary define “interest” as it related to someones properties or income? If you examine the entry for interest, you see several definitions. What would seem to be the most relevant definition is:

However, the term “advantage” is not usual to the modern vernacular in this context and so looking up the meaning of that term provides the following helpful definitions:

“6. Any surplus advantage”

(“American Dictionary of the English Language” entry on “Interest”, Noah Webster, 1828)

Okay, so interest is a surplus advantage and advantage is gain, profit, increase or overplus – all of these terms imply something over and above something else. There is still some ambiguity here and it would be helpful to have some more clarification

“2. Benefit; gain; profit…

7. Interest; increase; overplus”

(“American Dictionary of the English Language” entry on “Advantage”, Noah Webster, 1828)

It turns out that if you look closely at the original revelation in D&C 119 itself there is a helpful bit of information in the very next verse following the prior citation:

Okay, good this confirms the notion of tithing applying to “surplus.” What exactly did surplus mean at the time? Webster again provides clarification:

“Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall betithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.”

(D&C 119:5)

“1. Overplus; that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted. In the United States, the surplus of wheat and rye not required for consumption or exportation, is distilled.

2. In law, the residuum of an estate, after the debts and legacies are paid.”

(“

American Dictionary of the English Language

” entry on “Surplus”, Noah Webster, 1828)

In the end I see all three options as viable (Gross, Net, Surplus) and according to the Lord's revelation and the Church's statement no one can define it beyond their ambiguous definition the Church has given us and we are to each make up our own mind.  May each judge himself what is a fair and honest Tithing and pay it accordingly

Edited March 2, 2015 by DBMormon

[carbon dioxide]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

The Church has never said net or gross income.  It is up to the person to decide if they the money they are taxed needs to be tithed.  Personally I don't tith my tax or SS or 401 K contributions.  I will pay tithing on my SS and 401K when I start receiving money from them.  I do pay tithing on my tax refund.  I wish I had more income and perhaps I would go beyond and pay on the gross.  But I don't have the money to do that and also other things that the Church asks us like food storage, debt reduction, ect.  If I pay on the gross, I can't do the other stuff. 

[Paddy]

you know my feeling.

Here is the Lord's -

and here is an article that examines what the Lord's meant by 1828 standards

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/lds-tithing-in-a-word/

In the end I see all three options as viable (Gross, Net, Surplus)

There is probably another option (as well as others) and that is not to do a strict calculation and just offer what you deem to be a full and honest tithe. Combining this with a net estimate is basically how I have always paid.

[carbon dioxide]

Since I can't make a thread, I have a tithing question. Do we have to pay tithing on tax refunds we get?

If you pay on the gross, i would say no since the refund is the government taking too much out of your gross pay and you paid on the gross.  If you pay on the net then I would say probably yes. 

[Scott Lloyd]

All the Church say's is that a full tithe is 10% of your increase, and we get to decide how that increase is figured.

The First Presidency said that "increase" is interpreted to mean income. Personally, I think that filters out hinky definitions like "tithing is 10 percent of what's left over after I've paid all my bills and bought everything I need/want".

[VideoGameJunkie]

I pay on the net so I've decided to pay tithing on my refund.

[pogi]

The tithe is paid on the income.  A refund is not considered income.

 

Jim

It is not considered income by whom?

 

This has nothing to do with how the government views it.  If you really cared about what the government considers income and paid tithing on that, then you should be paying tithing on your gross anyway.

 

For tax purposes, your refund is not considered income so you are not double taxed on it, as it has already been considered income by the government.  For tithing purposes, it has not yet been considered income, if you pay on net.  Don't worry, you are not going to be double tithed on it, this is not a trick. 

 

It is a "refund" of your "income" that was never tithed to begin with.  It is not a refund of tithed money like you would get from returning a product to a retailer.  It is not a gift either, it is more like a delayed, untithed pay check.

Edited March 2, 2015 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

My mission president said it was INCREASE.  He said what you pay in taxes and to live is not increase.  So, you pay 10% after what you have left.

 

I have always done that...and always been blessed.  I think it is the intent of your heart.

The First Presidency interprets "increase" to mean income.

And it's still income even after you've converted it into and consumed goods and services through your purchases.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

My mission president said it was INCREASE.  He said what you pay in taxes and to live is not increase.  So, you pay 10% after what you have left.

 

I have always done that...and always been blessed.  I think it is the intent of your heart.

 

If I didn't have to pay tithing on what I use for living expenses, then I guess I never have to pay tithing, because I intend to use all of my money to live on.  Whatever is increase will have to be determined when I am dead.