Senator Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?
thesometimesaint Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?All the Church say's is that a full tithe is 10% of your increase, and we get to decide how that increase is figured. 2
Tacenda Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 All the Church say's is that a full tithe is 10% of your increase, and we get to decide how that increase is figured.For the first time this past year my husband didn't pay like the teacher ascribed, 10% gross. I'm due to go in for an interview for my recommend, we didn't follow that teacher's advice, but did pay far more than just an increase, would I be an honest tithe payer? This is kind of urgent, and I'm glad for the topic...thanks Senator. I know my testimony isn't on par, but will tell the individual who interviews me the truth. But I believe the tithing is quite paramount, sorry but it is, to whether I get the TR. I hate to be dishonest. I wonder why the church doesn't go by the original scripture to pay on increase, why isn't this taught? I've never been taught the increase only the gross! I also remember being told when you pay on gross you get more blessings and especially with fast offerings!
MormonMason Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Tithing is officially defined by the Lord as "one-tenth of all their interest annually." "Interest" is defined by the Church officially as "income." So, the literal meaning of this official phrase is "one-tenth of all their income annually." See CHI Book 1 via your bishop for details. "All" = "gross." "Net" != "all." When we get income, we may not bring it all home (some goes to taxes and some goes elsewhere before we ever get what's left) but our full income is our gross income if we strictly go by the dictionary and official definitions of the terms, regardless of what we take home, for that is the meaning of the term "gross" with respect to finances.It may be between the person and the Lord but, to put it like Joseph Fielding Smith once did, should we really d icker with the Lord over finances? Edited May 21, 2013 by MormonMason 1
gurn Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 So, it is possible that a wealthy member in France would have to pay more than 100% to the government and then another 10% to the church. http://www.reuters.c...E94H0AX20130518. I wonder what the income tax rate was when these revelations on tithing were given? Oh, I remember, there wasn't an income tax then.Do you think it is fair that some members pay no income tax and others pay 35% to the Federal Government? Yet both pay on the gross? I say we not judge each and let each member work it out with the Lord.
CV75 Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?I agree that he was out of bounds and have not had the experience of having this lesson presented in this manner (and never heard of such a presentation before). Edited May 21, 2013 by CV75
Popular Post LoudmouthMormon Posted May 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted May 21, 2013 Last four bishops I've had, have all said something like "You ain't getting an answer out of me in your gross vs. net debate. The church will not tell you one way or the other. Get over it, get on your dang knees, counsel with the Lord, and make up your own dang mind about something for once."In fact, I was in a bishopric meeting when the stake rep said something like this to the bishop.But yeah, maybe the folks who are arguing a more definitive answer, know something better. 6
bluebell Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 If he declared that paying a full tithing meant paying 10% of gross then yes, he was out of line. The church (ie. our prophet and apostles) has not defined it as such, and no one else has the authority to do so for any other member.Some people need to just get over it, pay what THEY believe the Lord wants them to pay, and teach only what the church has sanctioned on the topic and no more. 1
thesometimesaint Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 For the first time this past year my husband didn't pay like the teacher ascribed, 10% gross. I'm due to go in for an interview for my recommend, we didn't follow that teacher's advice, but did pay far more than just an increase, would I be an honest tithe payer? This is kind of urgent, and I'm glad for the topic...thanks Senator. I know my testimony isn't on par, but will tell the individual who interviews me the truth. But I believe the tithing is quite paramount, sorry but it is, to whether I get the TR. I hate to be dishonest. I wonder why the church doesn't go by the original scripture to pay on increase, why isn't this taught? I've never been taught the increase only the gross! I also remember being told when you pay on gross you get more blessings and especially with fast offerings!I have no problem with paying on gross income, but that isn't what the Church says. I pay on net then pay a tithe on my tax return. The effect is that I pay a little more than I would on the gross alone.It is taught. The Scriptures are not specific on what a tithe is. Though it is generally assumed to be 10%. http://www.openbible.info/topics/tithes_and_offering We don't collect an in-kind tithe anymore, and no one checks to make sure it is 10% of your income. If you feel in your heart that you paying on gross is how you want to do it. It really is between you and the Lord.
Buzzard Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) This is quite an interesting topic. What does gross mean? Do you tithe on your employers share of health insurance and other benefits? Pension and/or employer contributions to your 401K? Free tickets to a ball game? What about saints in high tax states or countries where take home pay may be less than half of gross wages? Insurance payouts, per diem expense reimbursements and on and on and on. I'm not saying what is right, I'm saying it was a lot simpler back when you had 100 acres, and the harvest of ten of those acres was taken to the storehouse.FWIW, I tithe on gross wages, because I just always have. But I don't begrudge those who choose differently. I also received a portion of my life insurance early, due to the prognosis of leaving mortality within the next year (hope to prove that one wrong). Since I paid premiums into it for many years, the entire amount is not an increase, but is any of it, or just the surplus over premiums? Still working on that answer. Edited May 21, 2013 by Buzzard 2
Glenn101 Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 When I am working for a wage, I pay on my gross income, before any taxes, 401K, medical etc. are takenout. When I am freelancing, I pay on my net income after my expenses, but before any taxes, etc. are taken out. I feel that I am fully in the spirit of the law of tithing in doing so.Glenn 1
Popular Post cdowis Posted May 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) The First Presidency statement made it very clear, as found in the GD manual. The teacher needs to read this statement from the teacher's manual.The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970). Edited May 21, 2013 by cdowis 5
Storm Rider Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 The other topics about taxes, etc. are red herrings and have nothing to do with the topic. The issue is that the Lord asks for ten percent. As was said, talk to him, ponder on it, and then follow through. This is not a time for rationalization or second thoughts; he gives us all that we have. He asks that we give him 10% to assist in the working of his kingdom on earth. The question is, "are you a full tithe payer". It is either yes or no; no need for second thoughts. 1
Madmardigan Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I told myself a while ago that if I have to ask the question, then I should pay on gross.And since I pay on gross, I get excited when I get my tax return because I already paid tithing on it!
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Reponse:"Your statement is, by the direct word of the leaders of the Church, unjustified and therefore apostate. PERIOD."On a related note I am okay with "net blessings" as I am pretty sure the government has not yet figured out how to tax them yet.
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I told myself a while ago that if I have to ask the question, then I should pay on gross.And since I pay on gross, I get excited when I get my tax return because I already paid tithing on it!I asked God and got an answer.....and not what I was exoecting. I reverify every year to make sure we are still good.
rockpond Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 The First Presidency statement made it very clear, as found in the GD manual. The teacher needs to read this statement from the teacher's manual.The statement cdowis quoted is also what appears in the most current Church Handbook of Instructions 1. While there is a lot of debate about gross, net, or some other understanding of "income" (ex. a profit & loss type income), nobody is justified in making any other statement than what cdowis said.I think it should be a matter of prayer for each individual and everyone should feel comfortable in giving their answer to the full tithe-payer question.
ERayR Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 For the first time this past year my husband didn't pay like the teacher ascribed, 10% gross. I'm due to go in for an interview for my recommend, we didn't follow that teacher's advice, but did pay far more than just an increase, would I be an honest tithe payer? This is kind of urgent, and I'm glad for the topic...thanks Senator. I know my testimony isn't on par, but will tell the individual who interviews me the truth. But I believe the tithing is quite paramount, sorry but it is, to whether I get the TR. I hate to be dishonest. I wonder why the church doesn't go by the original scripture to pay on increase, why isn't this taught? I've never been taught the increase only the gross! I also remember being told when you pay on gross you get more blessings and especially with fast offerings!Tacenda how would anybody on this board know if you are a full tithe payer or not? That is between you, your husband and God. You have to declare it to the Bishop. 1
Senator Posted May 21, 2013 Author Posted May 21, 2013 While there is a lot of debate about gross, net, or some other understanding of "income" (ex. a profit & loss type income), nobody is justified in making any other statement than what cdowis said.Yet, why is it so many members just can't resist?
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Yet, why is it so many members just can't resist?Mostly self-righteouness from the Grossers. Sometimes concern that the poor Netters are sinning in ignorance. Netters wanting to stir the pot.Stupid quotations of the unscriptural net and gross blessings quote which is almost as revered as the equally unscriptural "never said it would be easy only worth it" drivel.
MormonMason Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 From the dictionary:gross[grohs] adjective, gross·er, gross·est, noun, plural gross for 11, gross·es for 12, 13; verb adjective 1. without deductions; total, as the amount of sales, salary, profit, etc., before taking deductions for expenses, taxes, or the like ( opposed to net ): gross earnings; gross sales. * * * * *12. total income from sales, salary, etc., before any deductions ( opposed to net ). The official statement of the Lord: "one-tenth of all their [income] annually." It is pretty simple math for most. All income is the gross. Otherwise, it is not all income.That said, if a person is a businessman, a lot of money earned does not mean that all of that money earned is the person's gross income. It is the business's income. Whatever is drawn from that for the wages of the owner is the business owner's gross, so long as it is before personal taxes and that amount is counted.The First Presidency statement on the definition pretty well sums it up. Why d icker with the Lord over finances? What would be the point in that? Remember what happened to Sapphira and her husband when they kept back part of the income when the Saints were consecrating in Bible times? In the case of tithing, there is a reason why some LDS refer to it as "fire insurance." It is best not to be "cheap" with the Lord. It would totally "bite" to find out which way we really went at the last day when the chips are down.But, hey, it really is between the Lord and the person. We have no room to judge in this. The Lord is judge and a fair and just judge he is, rewarding the good and the wicked for what they have done in the body.
Senator Posted May 21, 2013 Author Posted May 21, 2013 The official statement of the Lord: "one-tenth of all their [income] annually." It is pretty simple math for most. All income is the gross. Otherwise, it is not all income.So then it really boils down to a definition of what income is, and this is where the church does not articulate. And it is well that it doesn't.
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 All income is the gross. Otherwise, it is not all income.According to the First Presidency you are not justified in making this comment. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?Well call me stupid...I always paid 10% of gross...I estimate that over my lifetime it shorted me about $3,000,000 -$5,000,000 that would have otherwise gone into my retirement fund...
MormonMason Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 According to the First Presidency you are not justified in making this comment. Actually, I am repeating verbatim the actual wording of the Lord and its meaning as interpreted by the First Presidency. See the CHI, via your Bishop, for the definition of income. The CHI states what "income" means and to whom it does not apply. I'd quote it verbatim as I read it but it is against the rules to do so here. Personally, I think this is something that should also have been put into Book 2 so everyone can see it and figure things out for themselves.
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