Tithing Means 10% Gross Income. Period

[rockpond]

Actually, I am repeating verbatim the actual wording of the Lord and its meaning as interpreted by the First Presidency. See the CHI, via your Bishop, for the definition of income. The CHI states what "income" means and to whom it does not apply. I'd quote it verbatim as I read it but it is against the rules to do so here. Personally, I think this is something that should also have been put into Book 2 so everyone can see it and figure things out for themselves.

All CHI 1 states with respect to the definition of tithing is the quote directly from the 1970 First Presidency letter, I'll paste it here because it's from a public letter, not just the CHI, so it isn't breaking the rules:

“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4).

One-tenth of your annual interest which is understood to mean income.

It does go on to explain that full-time missionaries and those who are entirely dependent on church assistance are not expected to pay tithing. That's the "who". The "when" according to CHI 1 is that members are encouraged to pay as they receive their income but they may pay annually.

[Senator]

Mostly self-righteouness from the Grossers. Sometimes concern that the poor Netters are sinning in ignorance. Netters wanting to stir the pot.

Stupid quotations of the unscriptural net and gross blessings quote which is almost as revered as the equally unscriptural "never said it would be easy only worth it" drivel.

I also find it interesting that many gross preachers will ultimately confess that it is a decision to be made between the payer and the Lord, but inevitably go on to fire off some anecdote or scriptural reference to put the fear of God into him that might be leaning to not go with the gross option.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Senator

[bluebell]

Actually, I am repeating verbatim the actual wording of the Lord and its meaning as interpreted by the First Presidency. See the CHI, via your Bishop, for the definition of income. The CHI states what "income" means and to whom it does not apply. I'd quote it verbatim as I read it but it is against the rules to do so here. Personally, I think this is something that should also have been put into Book 2 so everyone can see it and figure things out for themselves.

You aren't just quoting though, you are interpreting and then telling everyone that your interpretation is the only correct one.

It's easy enough to see that when your 'verbatim' actually includes a whole lot of explanations and definitions of words that are not in the quote.

The church has declared that to pay a ful tithing one must pay "one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income". The church has not defined any part of that statement any further though, as you have. They especially have not attempted to define the word 'all' or 'income' further, though it seems likely that thousands of people have asked them such questions over the years.

They have left those definitions up to the individual and even said that anyone who attempts to define their words any more than what has officially been said is in the wrong. That seems to imply that this is truly something that the Lord wants each person to figure out for themselves.

I have no problem with your interpretation, but it's nothing more than that, and it's certainly not a 'verbatim quote'.

[The Nehor]

I also find it interesting that many gross preachers will ultimately confess that it is a decision to be made between the payer and the Lord, but inevitably go on to fire off some anecdote or scriptural reference to put the fear of God into him that might be leaning to not go with the gross option.

To be fair they are mostly well-intentioned.

Actually, I am repeating verbatim the actual wording of the Lord and its meaning as interpreted by the First Presidency.

I do not think verbatim means what you think it means.

[MormonMason]

You aren't just quoting though, you are interpreting and then telling everyone that your interpretation is the only correct one.

It's easy enough to see that when your 'verbatim' actually includes a whole lot of explanations and definitions of words that are not in the quote.

The church has declared that to pay a ful tithing one must pay "one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income". The church has not defined any part of that statement any further though, as you have. They especially have not attempted to define the word 'all' or 'income' further, though it seems likely that thousands of people have asked them such questions over the years.

They have left those definitions up to the individual and even said that anyone who attempts to define their words any more than what has officially been said is in the wrong. That seems to imply that this is truly something that the Lord wants each person to figure out for themselves.

I have no problem with your interpretation, but it's nothing more than that, and it's certainly not a 'verbatim quote'.

I'd give the verbatim quotes but that is not allowed here. As I have said repeatedly, ask your bishop to read the entire section of the CHI on this subject and determine for yourself what it actually says. I also know what the financial definition of gross vs. net is, and have provided the relevant dictionary entries above. But, as I have written several times now, check it out for yourself. I also made quite clear that it is between the Lord and yourself. No need for anyone to get offended, as some inevitably will. But, seriously, when did "all their income" become "not necessarily all their income but as each interprets for her/himself"? That indeed is a question that each must answer for her/himself.

[MormonMason]

...

I do not think verbatim means what you think it means.

If I could quote it all to you without violating the rules, I could show that the quote was verbatim, and my statement as to the definition of "interest" comes right out of CHI Book 1. As I have repeatedly stated now, see your bishop and ask to have a look. It also contains exceptions. Please read it carefully. It is there for those interested in looking it up. But, you also have to ask yourself what the word "all" means in that context. Does it mean what it says or are we inclined rather to redefine it without cause?

Edited May 21, 2013 by MormonMason

[rockpond]

I'd give the verbatim quotes but that is not allowed here. As I have said repeatedly, ask your bishop to read the entire section of the CHI on this subject and determine for yourself what it actually says. I also know what the financial definition of gross vs. net is, and have provided the relevant dictionary entries above. But, as I have written several times now, check it out for yourself. I also made quite clear that it is between the Lord and yourself. No need for anyone to get offended, as some inevitably will. But, seriously, when did "all their income" become "not necessarily all their income but as each interprets for her/himself"? That indeed is a question that each must answer for her/himself.

I think that the issue is that "paycheck" and "income" are not synonymous. One must determine what their income is.

As noted above, I provided the quote that is verbatim from CHI 1. We are able to provide that verbatim quote because it comes from a 1970 letter from the First Presidency. That letter is to all the church and is not exclusive to those holding CHI 1. There is no other language in the Tithing section of Book 1 other than a reference to D&C 119 with not additional explanation.

Is there somewhere else in Book 1 that I should read for more information on the definition of tithing?

[Senator]

But, you also have to ask yourself what the word "all" means in that context. Does it mean what it says or are we inclined rather to redefine it without cause?

We have been given the freedom to individually define it. I would guess that there are many, with spiritual confirmation, that define all, or income differently than you. Does that trouble you for some reason? Edited May 21, 2013 by Senator

[bluebell]

I'd give the verbatim quotes but that is not allowed here. As I have said repeatedly, ask your bishop to read the entire section of the CHI on this subject and determine for yourself what it actually says.

There isn't a need. If there was a need for members to have the information in handbook 1 in order to be able to determine what is or isn't the will of the Lord concerning a full tithing, then the prophet and apostles would publish it for the public.

What they have published, they have declared to be ALL that needs to be said.

I also know what the financial definition of gross vs. net is, and have provided the relevant dictionary entries above.

That's all well and good but is not necessary for anyone to know before they can know how to pay a full tithe. If it was, the church would provide such definitions for those members who have no knowledge of such things (and i'm sure there are millions in the church who do not, and yet the church does not seem to be at all concerned about that lack of knowledge interferring with their ability to understand the published quote on what a full tithe is which they have provided).

But, as I have written several times now, check it out for yourself.

Again, there is no need for me to have access to any of that information before I can know what a full tithe is.

I also made quite clear that it is between the Lord and yourself.

Then let that be all that needs to be said about it.

Telling people that a full tithe is only one which is paid on gross, and telling them that if they aren't paying it exactly has you have described then they aren't paying a full tithe, completely negates any following statement which implies that anything less than gross would be acceptable.

No need for anyone to get offended, as some inevitably will.

I can't speak for anyone else but i'm not offended. I'm simply disagreeing with your interpretation.

But, seriously, when did "all their income" become "not necessarily all their income but as each interprets for her/himself"? That indeed is a question that each must answer for her/himself.

If you really believed that, you'd stop trying to prove why your answer is really the right one.

[MormonMason]

Telling people that a full tithe is only one which is paid on gross, and telling them that if they aren't paying it exactly has you have described then they aren't paying a full tithe, completely negates any following statement which implies that anything less than gross would be acceptable.

Read my overall remarks very carefully. There are things I mentioned in conjunction with this (including "exceptions"). Whether or not you like what I have said or disagree therewith, the only way you can judge how accurately I have restated what is therein is to read it for yourself. When I reference something, I try to be as accurate as is humanly possible under my circumstances. But, what do you think? Does "one-tenth of all [one's income] annually" mean what it says or not? The CHI specifically defines "interest" in that quote from the Lord as "income." Does "all" mean "all" in this context or not? Why or why not?

[rockpond]

Read my overall remarks very carefully. There are things I mentioned in conjunction with this (including "exceptions"). Whether or not you like what I have said or disagree therewith, the only way you can judge how accurately I have restated what is therein is to read it for yourself. When I reference something, I try to be as accurate as is humanly possible under my circumstances. But, what do you think? Does "one-tenth of all [one's income] annually" mean what it says or not? The CHI specifically defines "interest" in that quote from the Lord as "income." Does "all" mean "all" in this context or not? Why or why not?

I don't take issue with your insistence on the definition of "all". It's that the word "income" is not so easily defined for everyone.

[bluebell]

Read my overall remarks very carefully. There are things I mentioned in conjunction with this (including "exceptions"). Whether or not you like what I have said or disagree therewith, the only way you can judge how accurately I have restated what is therein is to read it for yourself. When I reference something, I try to be as accurate as is humanly possible under my circumstances. But, what do you think? Does "one-tenth of all [one's income] annually" mean what it says or not? The CHI specifically defines "interest" in that quote from the Lord as "income." Does "all" mean "all" in this context or not? Why or why not?

It means all ones income. But what income is and how to tithing on all of it is the undefined issue.

However you want to interpret that is fine, but its a personal interpretation that no one else is bound to, and according to the church, not an interpretation you should teach as being the correct one.

And rock pond (and others) has provided the quote (unless there is a different quote that is never taught in public that you are speaking of) so that isn't really an issue.

[Brian 2.0]

MMason, you seem to indicate over and over that there is something in CH1 that if we were able to read, we would see it just like you do. But others have quoted from the letter, etc. stating that there is no more info. Is there really something more on CH1 that would be some silver bullet that would make everyone here agree with you?

[The Nehor]

MMason, you seem to indicate over and over that there is something in CH1 that if we were able to read, we would see it just like you do. But others have quoted from the letter, etc. stating that there is no more info. Is there really something more on CH1 that would be some silver bullet that would make everyone here agree with you?

Nope.

[blackstrap]

I have no interest in my income and I have no income from interest. What will I do ?????

[Freedom]

I do not pay tithing on gifts, cash or otherwise. I also do not pay tithes on my gross and nor does anybody anywhere. It is a matter of semantics, however. If you work as a school teacher and you are making $70,000, your gross income is actually about $130,000. You just do not see this income because it is deducted before it become your official income. This the cost to your employer to have you working, so this is your income. If you are a self employed teacher, you would see the income of $130,000, but you would deduct the cost of heating the classroom, purchasing teaching material, and mailing out report cards before you pay your tithes.

I pay tithes after I deduct my business expenses but before I deduct my personal expenses. I do not intend to pay tithing on the principle of my retirement saving plan and I do not pay tax when I sell a vehicle or other items that have depreciated in value because I do not consider this income. It is a loss. I paid tax on the income that purchased the car so selling is simply liquidating income that was already tithed.

I would not pay tithing on an inheritance because I do not consider this income. I would give offering however, just not in the form of tithes.

[MormonMason]

MMason, you seem to indicate over and over that there is something in CH1 that if we were able to read, we would see it just like you do. But others have quoted from the letter, etc. stating that there is no more info. Is there really something more on CH1 that would be some silver bullet that would make everyone here agree with you?

I don't think it will make anyone do anything of the kind. People see what they want to see. I can say what I have, that there is a quote from the Lord, that "interest" in that quote is defined in the CHI Book 1 as "income" and that it mentions a couple exceptions to be made so far as types of titheable income is concerned. One also can read that section from Book 1 several times over and see that "interest" is defined therein as "income," just as I said.

So, by substituting "income" for "interest" per the defining of the term and meaning in Book 1, what does "one-tenth of all their [income] annually" literally mean? Does it not mean what it says? Do we need to redefine words in the dictionary aside from application of the two exceptions in varying ways to justify what we do?

Other than that, by the dictionary "all" typically means "all" unless context suggests otherwise, and "gross income" means "the whole income" (the meaning matching the meaning of the phrase "all their interest annually") as opposed to "net income." There is no context that would seem to indicate that "all" does not mean "all" outside of the two exceptions mentioned in the CHI Book 1. The only official statement is the Lord's statement, which is "all their interest annually." Interpret however you may. It is between the Lord and yourselves. He'll let you know what is up at the last day. You don't need me telling you anything. I just pointed out a potential reasoning for someone who would teach a lesson as recounted in the OP.

[Storm Rider]

At the end of the day I don't think that God is using a battalion of angels equipped with calculators to determine who has paid at least 10% of their income or not. This kind of legalistic approach to giving of our material means to assist the growth and functioning of the Kingdom of God on earth misses the point almost entirely of the spirit of the law. God gives us all that we have; he requests ten percent in return. If you can give more, do so, but give. We do not give to receive blessings and those who do miss out on too much of the Gospel. There are tithes and then there are offerings; both need our attention and commitment. Put the calculator up and give back to the Lord and you will be blest.

[canard78]

I don't think it will make anyone do anything of the kind. People see what they want to see. I can say what I have, that there is a quote from the Lord, that "interest" in that quote is defined in the CHI Book 1 as "income" and that it mentions a couple exceptions to be made so far as types of titheable income is concerned. One also can read that section from Book 1 several times over and see that "interest" is defined therein as "income," just as I said.

So, by substituting "income" for "interest" per the defining of the term and meaning in Book 1, what does "one-tenth of all their [income] annually" literally mean? Does it not mean what it says? Do we need to redefine words in the dictionary aside from application of the two exceptions in varying ways to justify what we do?

Other than that, by the dictionary "all" typically means "all" unless context suggests otherwise, and "gross income" means "the whole income" (the meaning matching the meaning of the phrase "all their interest annually") as opposed to "net income." There is no context that would seem to indicate that "all" does not mean "all" outside of the two exceptions mentioned in the CHI Book 1. The only official statement is the Lord's statement, which is "all their interest annually." Interpret however you may. It is between the Lord and yourselves. He'll let you know what is up at the last day. You don't need me telling you anything. I just pointed out a potential reasoning for someone who would teach a lesson as recounted in the OP.

We do know that neither CHBI1 nor CBHI2 are doctrine? They're guidance on current day policy and administration. I don't see any statement saying they will be one of the books that will be opened for our final judgement.

One of the things that interests me in this discussion is that often the tone of those who overbearingly teach "gross" is a feeling if 'it's not fair.'

I can understand that feeling, that someone else is 'getting away' with paying their fair share. But the scriptures simply do not provide absolute clarity on what should be tithed. So I'll render unto Caesar and unto God that which is God's.

My approach is simple. I take all my money and on the first Sunday of the month throw it into the air towards heaven. Everything he wants, I'm happy for him to keep. Everything that comes back down, is mine. Since I went plastic it's been a bit of a hassle when the card falls down the back of the sofa.

[cdowis]

I told myself a while ago that if I have to ask the question, then I should pay on gross.

And since I pay on gross, I get excited when I get my tax return because I already paid tithing on it!

When you get on Social Security, how will you determine your tithing, since the SS is part of the gross.

[The Nehor]

Does gross include emoloyer payments towards yiur health plan even though they are not on your paycheck? 401k matching? The cost of the food you eat at free company lunches? Do I deduct the gas I use to drive to work?

Yep, income is sure easy to figure out.

[Senator]

I just pointed out a potential reasoning for someone who would teach a lesson as recounted in the OP.

I can appreciate you demonstrating this in a venue such as this. But in a church sponsored teaching setting, such reasoning need not, and even ought not be said

[ERayR]

I do not pay tithing on gifts, cash or otherwise. I also do not pay tithes on my gross and nor does anybody anywhere. It is a matter of semantics, however. If you work as a school teacher and you are making $70,000, your gross income isactually about $130,000. You just do not see this income because it is deducted before it become your official income. This the cost to your employer to have you working, so this is your income. If you are a self employed teacher, you would see the income of $130,000, but you would deduct the cost of heating the classroom, purchasing teaching material, and mailing out report cards before you pay your tithes.

What you are leaving out is that tithing is not one-tenth of your income but rather one-tenth of your increase. No need to do the contortions you are indulging in. Ask the question: Do I have more than when this event took place? If the answer is yes then ask: How much more do I have? This will take care of business expenses as they obviously decrease the amount of your increase.

The amount it costs your employer to hire and maintain your employment position has nothing to do with your increase but it does affect his/her increase.

I pay tithes after I deduct my business expenses but before I deduct my personal expenses. I do not intend to pay tithing on the principle of my retirement saving plan and I do not pay tax when I sell a vehicle or other items that have depreciated in value because I do not consider this income. It is a loss. I paid tax on the income that purchased the car so selling is simply liquidating income that was already tithed.

Business expenses would reduce your amount of increase so should not be tithed. However, personal expenses paid contribute to your increase. If the principal has already been tithed (as it should have been as it was an increase) then when it is drawn out it is not an increase. The sale of personal items is not an increase. It is only a change in form of something you already have. Not an increase.

I would not pay tithing on an inheritance because I do not consider this income. I would give offering however, just not in the form of tithes.

When you receive an inheritance you are getting something you did not have before so it is an increase to you.

See how simple it is. What did I have before the event? What do I have after the event? The difference is increase.

[ERayR]

When you get on Social Security, how will you determine your tithing, since the SS is part of the gross.

Simple. When you get to the point you have received more than was paid into your account then it becomes increase.

[go_utes01]

All the legalistic contortions don't seem necessary to me - "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is." Why not just say that we have been commanded to pay 10% of our annual increase and leave the computation of that to the individual and their Heavenly Father and leave it at that? Simple enough.