Tithing Means 10% Gross Income. Period

[Scott Lloyd]

If I didn't have to pay tithing on what I use for living expenses, then I guess I never have to pay tithing, because I intend to use all of my money to live on.  Whatever is increase will have to be determined when I am dead.

Yeah, paying tithing on the "surplus" is a really sweet deal -- on its face. You can reason yourself out of ever having to pay a single cent in tithing.

[DBMormon]

Yeah, paying tithing on the "surplus" is a really sweet deal -- on its face. You can reason yourself out of ever having to pay a single cent in tithing.

why are you an exception to say more than the brethren when they have asked you not to?

[Storm Rider]

It seems like a debatable issue for those committed to serving as disciples of Christ - what is tithing and on what funds should I tithe?  However, a tithe or 10% seems like it might be the minimal amount one would return to God.  I suspect many return more than 10% when looking on contributions as a whole.  

 

Ten percent of what amount is debatable, but I am hesitant to dictate to another how that should be figured.  To me it is between them and the Lord.  Teach correct principles and allow them to govern themselves remains wise counsel. 

[Glenn101]

There are a lot of gray areas in the law of tithing which have never been spelled out for us. That leaves a lot of "between me and the Lord" issues. I am not about to try to tell another person how they should pay their tithing. I, myself, have always paid on my gross income, before taxes. However, I do not think it would be a stretch to look at what tithing should be paid on as after taxes income, but including the deductions for insurance, etc.

 

But then, there are those who have insurance through medicare or other "paid up" insurance plans. We can ruin our mental health trying to zero in on just exactly what any one of us should be paying. The main thing is that we really feel that we are paying a full tithing. I really feel that I am doing so.

 

Glenn

[mnn727]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

Way out of bounds and needs to be talked to for disseminating false teachings.

Edited March 2, 2015 by mnn727

[BlueDreams]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

I've always paid on my net and then my tax return. Basically if it's not in my bank account then it's not my money. 

 

The dude's out of bounds

 

and I had this presented as gross by my mother. But she's hesitant about herbal tea and caffeinated soda, had to be convinced that I wasn't in grave error with agreeing with evolution, and believed in heavenly fence-sitting sort of beliefs. Needless to say, I take her word with a grain of salt when it comes to my religious decisions. For that matter, I take a whole lot of people's beliefs with a grain of salt. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited March 2, 2015 by BlueDreams

[DBMormon]

It seems like a debatable issue for those committed to serving as disciples of Christ - what is tithing and on what funds should I tithe?  However, a tithe or 10% seems like it might be the minimal amount one would return to God.  I suspect many return more than 10% when looking on contributions as a whole.  

 

Ten percent of what amount is debatable, but I am hesitant to dictate to another how that should be figured.  To me it is between them and the Lord.  Teach correct principles and allow them to govern themselves remains wise counsel. 

Amen, your approach is wise and is within the bounds of what the Brethren have said officially

[DBMormon]

There are a lot of gray areas in the law of tithing which have never been spelled out for us. That leaves a lot of "between me and the Lord" issues. I am not about to try to tell another person how they should pay their tithing. I, myself, have always paid on my gross income, before taxes. However, I do not think it would be a stretch to look at what tithing should be paid on as after taxes income, but including the deductions for insurance, etc.

 

But then, there are those who have insurance through medicare or other "paid up" insurance plans. We can ruin our mental health trying to zero in on just exactly what any one of us should be paying. The main thing is that we really feel that we are paying a full tithing. I really feel that I am doing so.

 

Glenn

Amen Glenn.... 

[DBMormon]

Way out of bounds and needs to be talked to.

send him my podcast episode

[ERayR]

send him my podcast episode

 

IMNSHO it would be better to refer him back to what the GA's have said. Which by the way is not on "surplus".  https://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng

[bluebell]

My mission president said it was INCREASE.  He said what you pay in taxes and to live is not increase.  So, you pay 10% after what you have left.

 

I have always done that...and always been blessed.  I think it is the intent of your heart.

 

Then continue to do it that.  

 

If you sincerely believe you are paying a full tithe and following what the church has said, then you are.  The Brethren have repeatedly stated that we are not allowed to define what 'increase' means (other than that it means income) for anyone besides ourselves.  When people try to do that for you just ignore them.  They may mean well but they are stepping outside of their bounds.  

[ERayR]

My mission president said it was INCREASE.  He said what you pay in taxes and to live is not increase.  So, you pay 10% after what you have left.

 

I have always done that...and always been blessed.  I think it is the intent of your heart.

 

Instead of relying on your mission president why not go to the scriptures then seek personal revelation?

[mnn727]

Tithing is officially defined by the Lord as "one-tenth of all their interest annually." "Interest" is defined by the Church officially as "income." So, the literal meaning of this official phrase is "one-tenth of all their income annually." See CHI Book 1 via your bishop for details. "All" = "gross." "Net" != "all." When we get income, we may not bring it all home (some goes to taxes and some goes elsewhere before we ever get what's left) but our full income is our gross income if we strictly go by the dictionary and official definitions of the terms, regardless of what we take home, for that is the meaning of the term "gross" with respect to finances.

It may be between the person and the Lord but, to put it like Joseph Fielding Smith once did, should we really d icker with the Lord over finances?

Sorry, but your definition goes beyond what the brethern have stated. Please stop adding your thoughts to theirs.

[Alan]

Try living in Sweden and paying tithing on your gross income!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Try living in Sweden and paying tithing on your gross income!

Sounds quite irrelevant.

 

Try doing it in Japan, boy things are bad over there.

[JLHPROF]

IMNSHO it would be better to refer him back to what the GA's have said. Which by the way is not on "surplus".  https://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng

 

The Church definition of interest or increase is income.  That's it. That's all.

So it comes down to how you interpret "income".  Personally I go with "incoming!!"  Anything that arrives in my hands gets tithed.  Money paid to the government by my employer on my behalf I have a hard time considering income.  I never see a dime of it.  I never have the money to tithe.

If I get a refund then I tithe that.

 

The scripture from which we get the Lord's most recent request for tithing says:

 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

Tithing cannot be "gross income" based on this scripture.  Gross income is EVERYTHING we earn.  The scripture says we must donate ALL our surplus and THEN tithe what is left.  I don't know anyone that does that.

[Alan]

Swedes pay around 50%-60% of their incomes in tax.

So, if you earn $20,000 and lose $12,000 before you even see the money, you have just $8,000 left. 10% of gross would be another £2,000, which is 25% of what he/she actually receives.

 

So it is very relevant.

[mnn727]

I think the grossers are mad because they think the netters are getting away with something.

and don't even mention surplusers to a grosser - they'll have a conniption fit.

[Alan]

I'm a surpluser.

I've counselled a number of people who just cannot afford to pay tithing on either gross or net to consider calculating this way. As a result we now have people paying tithing who didn't before.

[smac97]

Just had the Law of Tithing lesson in GD. The instructor pulled no punches as to how saints should tithe. I felt he was out of bounds. Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious as to how many others have had this lesson presented in this manner?

Section 14.4.1 of CHI1 states as follows:

Tithing / Definition of Tithing

The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4).

We can have personal interpretations that go beyond this, but I think such interpretations should not be taught as doctrine during a formal Gospel Doctrine lesson during the three-hour block. If I was the bishop of this ward, I would like to be notified of this.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mnn727]

Something to ponder: Is the interest you pay (for example) to the bank for your mortgage really income to you or is it income to the bank?

 

I think a good argument could be made that it's income to the bank.

 

Here's another thing to ponder -- my wife and I were never blessed with children, so if we plan to leave our estate to the Church (already in our will), should we eliminate tithing on it in advance? The Church will get our entire estate when we die - seems unfair to have to tithe on it too.

[JLHPROF]

Section 14.4.1 of CHI1 states as follows:

Tithing / Definition of Tithing

The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4).

We can have personal interpretations that go beyond this, but I think such interpretations should not be taught as doctrine during a formal Gospel Doctrine lesson during the three-hour block. If I was the bishop of this ward, I would like to be notified of this.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Except D&C 119:4 is only half of the Lord's commandment.  It is no interpretation to read the 3 verses before it:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

[ksfisher]

Except D&C 119:4 is only half of the Lord's commandment.  It is no interpretation to read the 3 verses before it:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

 

So by this definition we are supposed to tithe 100% of our surplus, not just 10.

[Scott Lloyd]

why are you an exception to say more than the brethren when they have asked you not to?

What I've done is to question your definition of income. I find it unworkable as it applies to tithe paying.

 

The Brethren did say "increase" is interpreted to mean income. They did not say "surplus."

 

You, on the other hand, have advocated your quirky definition of tithing. You have faulted the Church leaders, not only because they haven't embraced it, but because they haven't made it known far and wide among the Church membership as an option.

 

It seems to me you are the one going beyond what the Brethren have said.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[DBMormon]

IMNSHO it would be better to refer him back to what the GA's have said. Which by the way is not on "surplus".  https://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng

My podcast does not say it is Surplus but rather it is between the Lord and the member and I reiterate the 1st presidency statement.  I have never pushed surplus as the conclusion.  I have only stated that it is my conclusion.  Have you ever listened to the episode.  It sounds like you haven't.  Also some GA's have intimated it is surplus.

Edited March 2, 2015 by DBMormon