Mormon Missionary Tactics

[Mark Beesley]

When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?

If you are indeed 'saved by grace' perhaps you could find it in your heart to extend some of that grace to other fallible people rather than accuse them of deliberately misleading people with blatant falsehoods. You might find that the grace you have been so freely given has a greater power than even you can imagine.

[ERayR]

Just wanted to add that maybe missionaries should be encouraged to read what is on FAIR regarding polygamy, polyandry and other events and doctrines from church history. At least they'd be prepared with some answers when asked about it.

For all that you think the missionaries should know before they go out perhaps the MTC stay should be extended to about 6 years.

[ALarson]

Missionaries are not going out to teach history. They are going out to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Time is much better spent preparing them to do that.

I agree. But there is a history attached to the church and they are going to be asked about it. If their lack of knowledge on this subject is affecting baptisms (and I believe it is), then it seems easily corrected. I do believe the church is starting to be more open about its history and this will hopefully help if it starts at a young age.

For all that you think the missionaries should know before they go out perhaps the MTC stay should be extended to about 6 years.

LOL

This should be happening in seminary and other youth classes.

Edited February 21, 2013 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

For all that you think the missionaries should know before they go out perhaps the MTC stay should be extended to about 6 years.

Probably shouldn't haha, since it's even shorter now! It should be in seminary perhaps or somewhere else on top of seminary, because some don't even take seminary. A pamphlet might work, since you know JS was a "pamphlet", right? Just kidding, that was a line in the movie "The Best Two Year's". Anyhow, something must be done and probably well on it's way to being worked out. The internet is a whole different ballgame and people are going to wonder about those mormons and the poor missionaries need to have a handle on it.

[Bernard Gui]

Conversation between Elder Gui and Catholic priest on flight between San Jose, CR, and Guatemala City...

CP: Do Mormons really practice polygamy?

EG: We did in the past.

CP: How many wives can you have?

EG: Well, I can't have any right now.

CP: Yes, but how many can you have later?

When one becomes a Lutheran, does anyone tell you that Martin Luther allowed polygamy?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

I might believe that if my experience was unique, but I know others who were told the same thing as was at least one person who has posted here

That's ridiculous on its face. They were told the same thing because it was a widespread factoid, not because it was a systematic attempt to deceive. I remember hearing it at one time or another, and those who told it believed that it was either THE explanation, or AN explanation. I think it is a perfectly good, although incomplete, explanation. In some circumstances it was true, in others not.

Later I came by the knowledge that plural marriage was part and parcel of the Restoration, and the Lord required and commanded it as part of the Restoration. It didn't bother me that there were alternate explanations out there.

[bluebell]

Probably shouldn't haha, since it's even shorter now! It should be in seminary perhaps or somewhere else on top of seminary, because some don't even take seminary. A pamphlet might work, since you know JS was a "pamphlet", right? Just kidding, that was a line in the movie "The Best Two Year's". Anyhow, something must be done and probably well on it's way to being worked out. The internet is a whole different ballgame and people are going to wonder about those mormons and the poor missionaries need to have a handle on it.

That's the best line in the whole movie!

[Walden]

When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?

I am a critic, and even I wouldn't go so far as to state that these missionaries "were deliberately misleading people" with this nonsensical explanation for polygamy.

Personally, I think that these missionaries are just regurgitating what it is that they have been taught at the MTC and over the years in seminary. I don't think that they are trying to be deceptive when they use this poor argument, they just don't know any better. Remember, most of these young men are 19-21 year olds who have been raised in LDS families, and whose entire religious knowledge is derived from Sunday School/Aaronic priesthood lessons, seminary, etc. Like any young person, they have a penchant to believe that what their parents and other respected elders teach them is "truth". Essentially, if their parents believe it and the church they have devoted their lives to teaches it, why would they question it?

I don't think their argument concerning the numbers of women versus men as an impetus for polygamy, however weak it is, is an argument that they know is false and still choose to promulgate in some dubious/nefarious manner, as you seem to insinuate.

Instead, I think that the root of the problem can be blamed on the lack of instruction at the MTC, or even deeper, the lack of instruction throughout the whole Sunday School/Young Men's/Seminary cycle that most of these men are involved with for 19 years before they go on their mission. In all that time, nobody could find a moment to dispel the rumors, weak arguments and confusion that still seems to confound many members of the church with regard to polygamy?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?

Lol. I am not so sure that in every case of polygamy is this explination fasle. I think it used to be taught because it seemed like a reasonable reason for the practice. I even taught it on my mission. And I tell you right now that I had no thought as to be "delibertatly misleading" someone. I still don't now. It is what it is and it was the best light and knowledge I had at the time. The reason for polygamy was because the Lord commanded it.

Now for the record. Celestial marriage and Polygamy are 2 different things. Stop thinking they are part of each other. They are not. They are 2 distinct and different things. Now, would you kindly stop "deliberately misleading people".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am a critic, and even I wouldn't go so far as to state that these missionaries "were deliberately misleading people" with this nonsensical explanation for polygamy.

Personally, I think that these missionaries are just regurgitating what it is that they have been taught at the MTC and over the years in seminary. I don't think that they are trying to be deceptive when they use this poor argument, they just don't know any better. Remember, most of these young men are 19-21 year olds who have been raised in LDS families, and whose entire religious knowledge is derived from Sunday School/Aaronic priesthood lessons, seminary, etc. Like any young person, they have a penchant to believe that what their parents and other respected elders teach them is "truth". Essentially, if their parents believe it and the church they have devoted their lives to teaches it, why would they question it?

I don't think their argument concerning the numbers of women versus men as an impetus for polygamy, however weak it is, is an argument that they know is false and still choose to promulgate in some dubious/nefarious manner, as you seem to insinuate.

Instead, I think that the root of the problem can be blamed on the lack of instruction at the MTC, or even deeper, the lack of instruction throughout the whole Sunday School/Young Men's/Seminary cycle that most of these men are involved with for 19 years before they go on their mission. In all that time, nobody could find a moment to dispel the rumors, weak arguments and confusion that still seems to confound many members of the church with regard to polygamy?

This is a reasonable approach to the issue at hand.

[Stargazer]

No doubt "savedbygrace" will not agree, but when I reflect upon my missionary experience (which was back in 1972-1974) I am not sure if I ever answered the question "why did you practice polygamy" in the manner he says he was answered. But I definitely remember that I believed that this was at least part of the reason for polygamy. I may have even expressed this belief in answer to the question, I just don't remember if I did. But at the time I believed it.

The thing is, at no time in the Language Training Mission (predecessor to the Missionary Training Center) were we given any kind of instruction on how to deceptively answer investigator questions. We spent a good deal of time on language study (German in my case), scripture study, and learning the six standard missionary lessons by heart. Later, when investigators asked us questions about the Gospel we were equipped to answer many things, but not all things.

But ultimately, why does it matter why polygamy was practiced? If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restoration of the Primitive Church, as the Church teaches, and Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet, this means that the revelation on celestial marriage found in the Doctrine and Covenants is of God. You can complain how much you don't like the idea of polygamy, but you have to bend scripture all out of recognition to get past the point that God authorized and even commanded it in the Old Testament, and there is not one word in the New Testament that condemns it or rescinds it as an authorized practice. Or did I miss something there?

The fact remains that the abhorrence of polygamy found in Protestant theology grows out of the abhorrence for it found among the pagan Greeks and Romans.

"savebygrace" is using the practice of polygamy as a proof-point against the LDS Church. He doesn't like it, so obviously the LDS church cannot be of God. This is exactly backwards, but of course he will not acknowledge this. The proof-point, as has been mentioned, is the Book of Mormon.

[rongo]

Conversation between Elder Gui and Catholic priest on flight between San Jose, CR, and Guatemala City...

CP: Do Mormons really practice polygamy?

EG: We did in the past.

CP: How many wives can you have?

EG: Well, I can't have any right now.

CP: Yes, but how many can you have later?

When one becomes a Lutheran, does anyone tell you that Martin Luther allowed polygamy?

Conversation between me right after graduating from BYU, and renting motorhomes to German tourists in Salt Lake City:

Renter: Gibt es noch die Vielweiberei bei euch? (Do you still practice polygamy?)

Me: Nein ---- wir mussten das aufgeben, nachdem wir in der Bibel gelesen haben dass "kein Mensch zwei Meister dienen kann" (No, we had to give that up after we read in the Bible that "no man can serve two masters.")

I wouldn't have said that to just anyone ("I talked to a Mormon in Utah, and he said that they gave it up because it wasn't biblical"), but I could tell he was eclectic, intelligent, and would have recognized the Sermon on the Mount reference. He gave a good belly laugh at that. I then explained that we discontinued the practice in 1890 (no, I didn't get into the 2nd Manifesto).

As a missionary, I would often say at the doorstep (when asked if we practice polygamy) "Wir dürfen jetzt eigentlich nur zwei Frauen haben . . . eine für mich, und eine für ihn" (Actually, we can only have two wives now . . . (wait for gasp) ---- one for me, and one for him"). Then we would smile/laugh and explain that that was discontinued in 1890, but may we come in and explain more about our beliefs?

Even in the mid 1990s, many Germans' only perceptions about Mormons came from Westerns, or vague things about polygamy, or the Osmonds (yes, still in 1995).

Edited February 21, 2013 by rongo

[cdowis]

I know what you're saying and I agree somewhat, but that answer is not going to appease most investigators who ask about polyandry. If they are articulate and intelligent, they will see that response as just brushing aside their question. And, guess what? Then they'll go looking for answers on their own with the help of google and websites that don't put any type of fair or positive spin on the information they're asking questions about.

And that is a problem.... how?

Seriously, what do we see in the NT?

"What is truth?" Silence.......Jesus taught in parables, not giving direct answers to questions. Why is that a problem. The Jews called him a Nazarene, implying that he was not born in the City of David, and not the Messiah. "No, no, I was *really* born in Bethlehem."

Why are we terrified that they will get their answers from the bad guys. If missionaries simply do what they are supposed to do -- teach people to come to Christ, or should they become responsible to answer every foolish question that comes down the road.

"Don't worry about it. I'm sure you will eventually figure it out" is the best apologetic answer that a missionary can use. He can then move on and teach repentance, prayer, reading the scriptures, etc.

My opinion and I'm sticking with it.

Edited February 21, 2013 by cdowis

[ALarson]

And that is a problem.... how?

Seriously, what do we see in the NT?

"What is truth?" Silence.......Jesus taught in parables, not giving direct answers to questions. Why is that a problem. The Jews called him a Nazarene, implying that he was not born in the City of David, and not the Messiah. "No, no, I was *really* born in Bethlehem."

Why are we terrified that they will get their answers from the bad guys. If missionaries simply do what they are supposed to do -- teach people to come to Christ, or should they become responsible to answer every foolish question that comes down the road.

"Don't worry about it. I'm sure you will eventually figure it out" is the best apologetic answer that a missionary can use. He can then move on and teach repentance, prayer, reading the scriptures, etc.

My opinion and I'm sticking with it.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

But, we're talking about real people with real questions that are trying to learn about a church and decide whether or not to join it. If they do think about joining, it requires a big life style change (for some), big time commitment, and 10% of your income. Is is worth it? You bet. But, if there are no answers to their questions other than just don't worry your little mind about things like polyandry or any other questions you have and why don't you just repent and pray now, that's not going to work in most instances.

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[semlogo]

So they were as mislead as I. What a great church, to send people out so ill prepared, but somehow I doubt it

Missionaries know very little outside the material they are given to teach (ie the fundamentals of LDS doctrine). They tend to know very little about church history. An unfortunate fact. They are kids, not theologians.

[semlogo]

I might believe that if my experience was unique, but I know others who were told the same thing as was at least one person who has posted here

The narrative about polygamy being about taking care of widows is popular in the church and widely believed, though inaccurate.

[semlogo]

From a personal experience:

Investigator: What about this polygamy thing?

Missionary: Don't worry about it.

Answering questions on polygamy, the Danites, BOA translation is not the missionary's job. He is to study the scriptures, not focus on church history and answer a bunch of such questions.

The investigator's job is to get the Holy Spirit and gain a testimony. And that is something between himself and the Lord.

Either the BOM is the word of the Lord, or it is not.

"Don't worry about it" will only lead investigators to find out through other means.

[semlogo]

They do not have the spirit of their mission, they are salesmen. Trying to sell a product and attempting to answer every objection.

The "sales" is something between the investigator and the Lord. Missionaries are only the messenger and need to let Lord to do His work and they do theirs.

"Polyandry? Interesting question. Anyway let's move on to how to pray and get an answer to your prayer." Takes alot spiritual maturity and courage to do that, and, I admit, many missionaries are not up to it. They gotta have all the answers.

It is truly an issue of humility, and that is not a requirement to participate in this forum. :<)

This will be read by investigators as an evasion.

[teddyaware]

This is deflection, i was asking about deception as I see it regarding the purported reason for polygamy, not for its justification.

The first sentence in my response to your original post was a direct answer to the question you posed. In said response I said, "You assume all these missionaries knew 'they were deliberately misleading people.' when, in reality, most of them were most likely simply repeating what they had heard as an answer when they themselves asked the same question." So you see, I wasn't deflecting your question at all. Even so, I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions I have asked of you.

Edited February 21, 2013 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

The narrative about polygamy being about taking care of widows is popular in the church and widely believed, though inaccurate.

Not inaccurate but rather incomplete.

[rpn]

I get that the census said there were more men. But if the US Army personnel and people headed to CA may be included in those censuses, then the explanation may be accurate. It could also be accurate if there weren't enough of the right aged and good health or marriage prospects --- after all, the Mormon Battalion took away a good number for at least a couple of years.

I don't cite that reason (because it is speculation, after all). But I don't see it as categorically impossible, either.

[Damien the Leper]

Well, then ... if it's "beyond doubt" that this is the case, why qualify such surety with a quibbling "I think"? Shut 'er down, Clancy! She's pumpin' mud! (Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights? )

I'm not a member but I will stand there with the lights on waiting for all the Mormons to get back in the damn building. As all 14 million walk back in I will shake my head, fold my arms and tap my foot and do so patiently. I'll even give Volgadon a swift kick as he walks past me going back into the church.

[Kenngo1969]

I'll be happy to answer your questions, which, despite your use of seemingly-inflammatory language ("deliberately misleading," "blatant untruth"), I'm sure are asked in good conscience and good faith, with a sincere desire to receive clarification, but first, in order to frame the discussion, I have a couple of my own.

How do you define "widely practiced"?

Tell me, what is your understanding of the "doctrine of celestial marriage"?

Thanks in advance!

Since I'm sure Saved By Grace will be back any minute to answer these questions, and simply has not done so because s/he has been unavoidably detained by other pressing pursuits, I have now reposted them above. (By the way, Saved By Grace, please consider this request, respectfully, a Call For References (aka "CFR")). We have a put-up-or-shut-up rule on the Board which essentially states that if anyone is asked to make explicit the assumptions under which s/he operates when posing a question but fails to do so after being accorded a reasonable chance to comply, s/he will be escorted from the thread.

Since I'm sure you would never want that to happen, I'm also sure that you will answer the queries I pose above within a reasonable time. (And of course, it simply couldn't be that you're now content, having lobbed a bomb, simply to sit back, silently, and watch the fireworks ... right? Nahhhh! That couldn't be! )

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not a member but I will stand there with the lights on waiting for all the Mormons to get back in the damn building. As all 14 million walk back in I will shake my head, fold my arms and tap my foot and do so patiently. I'll even give Volgadon a swift kick as he walks past me going back into the church.

Thanks for keeping the light on!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?

These are not "tactics" just trying to explain what they are trying to understand as and young person might...now asking loaded questions to such young men and women, surly a "tactic"...by the way there is a lot of truth in this and doctrine from God the Father. There was a time when if a man's brother died he was "required" to marry their bother's wives and raise up seed unto them. We can only be thankful that is not required anymore.