savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?
CV75 Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?I would like to see someone say they deliberately misled people!How have you ever deliberately misled someone?
Duncan Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?why don't you ask them? I have no idea how they felt! 1
rodheadlee Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?How do you know it's a blatant untruth? Could these be one of the reasons polygamy was doctirne?
teddyaware Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?You assume all these missionaries knew "they were deliberately misleading people." when, in reality, most of them were most likely simply repeating what they had heard as an answer when they asked the same question.I have a some questions for you, which I ask most respectfully:Why are Abraham ("the father of the faithful") and Jacob (the polygamus forefather of the twelve tribes of Israel) so revered by the writers of the Bible?Wouldn't Abraham's and Jacob's polygamus lifestyles, according to your thinking, preclude them from receiving such adulation and honor from so many of the holy men who came after them?Did you know Abraham is positively refered to no less than 70 times in the New Testament alone? Here's a sampling:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (Galatians 3)The president has been set. The Bible proves it's possible to be a practioner of plural marriage and still find great favor in the sight of God and man. Edited February 21, 2013 by teddyaware 3
Popular Post wayfarer Posted February 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted February 21, 2013 How do you know it's a blatant untruth? Could these be one of the reasons polygamy was doctirne?that there were more women than men was not factually true, yet it was one of the reasons that polygamy was 'justified' as doctrine. The reality is that we don't know the reasons. One thing we are really good at is inventing reasons for things when we don't know them -- blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, word of wisdom, etc., have all had their justifications. The reality is, as Adam said, "I know not, save the Lord commanded me." 5
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?Giving an incorrect answer is not the same as deliberately misleading someone. 5
semlogo Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?I used to believe that myself. I suspect the missionaries you talked to were ignorant and not trying to mislead you.
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Alot of this problem would be alleviated if the MTC would train the missionaries properly in church history. There are many missionaries who become disallusioned when finding out the anti mormons on their missions had correct information and they denied it to the investigators. There are many stories like this. 3
volgadon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?What about your tactic of posting blatant falsehoods? How do you feel knowing that you are deliberately misleading people? 2
Buzzard Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Ah, but there were men who took many wives solely for this reason. Heber C. Kimball, if I remember correctly, had 43 wives, but only fathered children with about fifteen or so. Many of these wives were older widows that he was supporting. In 19th century Utah, marrying a woman, especially a widow, was considered the rational way to take care of her temporal needs. So the missionaries actually were telling you the truth-at least in some cases.It is true that there was never a global excess of females in Utah or the west, but how many 20 year old men are interested in a 45 year old widow with six children? Edited February 21, 2013 by Buzzard 1
ksfisher Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Alot of this problem would be alleviated if the MTC would train the missionaries properly in church history. There are many missionaries who become disallusioned when finding out the anti mormons on their missions had correct information and they denied it to the investigators. There are many stories like this.Except that missionaries are not called to teach the history of the church. They are called to teach the gospel. This is the charge Christ gave to his servants anciently as well as today. 3
volgadon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Except that missionaries are not called to teach the history of the church. They are called to teach the gospel. This is the charge Christ gave to his servants anciently as well as today.I think it would be great idea to provide some lessons or firesides in the MTC on church history. I was in during the 200th birthday of Joseph Smith, so there was a bit, but not as much as I would have liked. You also have to bear in mind that many missionaries are sent to parts of the world where the church has only recently begun developing (or are from there themselves), so the members could benefit from increased missionary knowledge, too. Edited February 21, 2013 by volgadon
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 You assume all these missionaries knew "they were deliberately misleading people." when, in reality, most of them were most likely simply repeating what they had heard as an answer when they asked the same question.I have a some questions for you, which I ask most respectfully:Why are Abraham ("the father of the faithful") and Jacob (the polygamus forefather of the twelve tribes of Israel) so revered by the writers of the Bible?Wouldn't Abraham's and Jacob's polygamus lifestyles, according to your thinking, preclude them from receiving such adulation and honor from so many of the holy men who came after them?Did you know Abraham is positively refered to no less than 70 times in the New Testament alone? Here's a sampling:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (Galatians 3)The president has been set. The Bible proves it's possible to be a practioner of plural marriage and still find great favor in the sight of God and man.This is deflection, i was asking about deception as I see it regarding the purported reason for polygamy, not for its justification.
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) What about your tactic of posting blatant falsehoods? How do you feel knowing that you are deliberately misleading people?Expand please Edited February 21, 2013 by savedbygrace
Kenngo1969 Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?I'll be happy to answer your questions, which, despite your use of seemingly-inflammatory language ("deliberately misleading," "blatant untruth"), I'm sure are asked in good conscience and good faith, with a sincere desire to receive clarification, but first, in order to frame the discussion, I have a couple of my own.How do you define "widely practiced"?Tell me, what is your understanding of the "doctrine of celestial marriage"?Thanks in advance! Edited February 21, 2013 by Kenngo1969
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 Ah, but there were men who took many wives solely for this reason. Heber C. Kimball, if I remember correctly, had 43 wives, but only fathered children with about fifteen or so. Many of these wives were older widows that he was supporting. In 19th century Utah, marrying a woman, especially a widow, was considered the rational way to take care of her temporal needs. So the missionaries actually were telling you the truth-at least in some cases.It is true that there was never a global excess of females in Utah or the west, but how many 20 year old men are interested in a 45 year old widow with six children?fair comment, but solely for this reason?
Kenngo1969 Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Expand pleaseHey, one use of inflammatory language might deserve another! 2
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 I used to believe that myself. I suspect the missionaries you talked to were ignorant and not trying to mislead you.So they were as mislead as I. What a great church, to send people out so ill prepared, but somehow I doubt it
volgadon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Expand pleaseWe could start with the blatant falsehood that missionaries are spreading blatant falsehoods and deliberately misleading people, and that this is a tactic. We could then add this quote into the mix. "Really, can't wait, but hope it is more reliable than the Book of Abraham farce, which without a doubt showed JS to be the fake that he was."To quote Bob Dylan, "how does it feel?" 3
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 Giving an incorrect answer is not the same as deliberately misleading someone.I might believe that if my experience was unique, but I know others who were told the same thing as was at least one person who has posted here
Kenngo1969 Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Alot of this problem would be alleviated if the MTC would train the missionaries properly in church history. There are many missionaries who become disallusioned when finding out the anti mormons on their missions had correct information and they denied it to the investigators. There are many stories like this.A testimony of Joseph Smith's divine call as a prophet doesn't hinge on the "truth" of polygamy (polygyny). Rather, it hinges on the truth of the Book of Mormon. 1
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 why don't you ask them? I have no idea how they felt!I was hoping that any one of them who might be here could explain/clarify
savedbygrace Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 I would like to see someone say they deliberately misled people!How have you ever deliberately misled someone?I hope not
volgadon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I hope notI hope not, but if your recent threads are anything to go by... 1
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