Damien the Leper Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 You'll miss.Ha! I'm a good aim and shot! Doubting me is like doubting the existence of oxygen. 1
volgadon Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Ha! I'm a good aim and shot! Doubting me is like doubting the existence of oxygen.Doubt? What doubt? I'm absolutely certain that you'll miss. 1
Damien the Leper Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Doubt? What doubt? I'm absolutely certain that you'll miss.Ahhhh...certainty. What an odd deficiency and epidemic. I'm sorry you suffer from such.... 1
volgadon Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Ahhhh...certainty. What an odd deficiency and epidemic. I'm sorry you suffer from such....See, you want to kick someone who is feeling unwell... 3
Damien the Leper Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 See, you want to kick someone who is feeling unwell...Sorry Volg... I love ya buddy! 1
Deborah Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 I wonder if I would have joined the church when I was 14 if I had first heard about plural marriage and the Priesthood ban rather than the principles and doctrines that were so unique and set the church apart. Indeed it was those very doctrines which convinced my my first spiritual impression on stepping inside the LDS church was correct because those doctrines rang true. Because I had such a spiritual testimony of the things that really mattered, when I did hear about the other things I was able to remain faithful and wait until I could find out more.Membership in the church should always be based on a spiritual witness. An intellectual decision will never last because you will always find contradictory information. The missionaries are to find those who are seeking greater light and knowledge revolving around the Savior and our purpose on earth, not to teach a history lesson. The history comes as one studies the scriptures, particularly the D&C, putting these things in context.I love studying church history now but I couldn't care less at age 14 or even age 21. Now the more I study the more sure I am that this was indeed the Lord's work because in spite of the failings of men or the actions of its opponents it has spread throughout the earth. Furthermore, I have come to understand more about how the Lord works in our lives. He doesn't give even his prophets all the answers. He teaches them the law and leaves it often to them to figure out how to implement it. 3
Deborah Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 I was just watching History of the Church on BYU TV. Richard E Bennett made the point that history doesn't convert or it doesn't deconvert. Believers will find rich material to support their beliefs. Those who are set on disbelief will find tidbits of history on which to feed their disbelief. He emphasized what I said, it isn't the history that converts but the Spirit. 1
Pahoran Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 When I was investigating the church with the missionaries, the subject of polygamy came up, they explained it this way. Because so may men died in the early church, this left a lot of widows, orphans etc, that the generous mormon men took them into their homes and married them so they would be taken care of. Many older former missionaries may remember this blatant untruth, how did they feel knowing that they were deliberately misleading people, rather than openly admitting that polygamy and polyandry were doctrines of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage?I see two "blatant untruths" in your nasty accusation:1) The claim that whoever told that story was "deliberately misleading people." Whoever said it had to actually know it wasn't true in order for it to be deliberate.2) The claim that "polyandry [was] doctrine of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage."If I was as spitefully uncharitable as an EV Protestant who has been "savedbygrace," I'd have to assume that you knew those claims were false, wouldn't I?However, I'm not that spitefully uncharitable. I suppose you really believe that nonsense.Regards,Pahoran 4
Flyonthewall Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 Another thing to take into consideration...missionaries are not "trained" on what to teach. Gone are the days of memorizing discussions word for word...some foreign speaking missionaries still memorize discussions but more as a tool to learn the language.I went on a mission in the early 80s and at that time english speaking missionaries were there for 3 weeks, and they were introducing non-scripted discussions - there were some bullet points on the discussion topic but the words were left up to the individual. I went to Japan so was in the MTC for 8 wks and in fact, I do not recall learning anything new while there, but was more for strengthening my testimony.Missionaries were to teach by the spirit, not by scholarship.I remember we told our investigators that we were simply to introduce them to the teachings of the church.Missionaries, in the LDS church anyway, are not the end-all, be-all for information regarding the church. If they teach by the spirit, then it is the spirit that does the converting. What it boils down to is: is the Book of Mormon true? If so, Joseph Smith was a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then it does not matter if he taught polygamy, or tried to kill his own son, or had 12 sons by 3 different wives, or killed someone and hid the body...God chose him to do a work. 4
cdowis Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 I was just watching History of the Church on BYU TV. Richard E Bennett made the point that history doesn't convert or it doesn't deconvert. Believers will find rich material to support their beliefs. Those who are set on disbelief will find tidbits of history on which to feed their disbelief. He emphasized what I said, it isn't the history that converts but the Spirit."There are a hundred reasons to leave the church, and only reason to stay."
why me Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) I was just watching History of the Church on BYU TV. Richard E Bennett made the point that history doesn't convert or it doesn't deconvert. Believers will find rich material to support their beliefs. Those who are set on disbelief will find tidbits of history on which to feed their disbelief. He emphasized what I said, it isn't the history that converts but the Spirit.Well, this is certainly true. I found Rough Stone Rolling faith promoting and Bushman covers Joseph Smith better than anyone. However, much depends on who gets to the members first. If it is an antimormon site, they will make a good job in giving a lds history good running over to cast doubt. If it is a faithful account of lds history the tone will be different and the intent too. It can be very faith promoting. Edited February 25, 2013 by why me
Damien the Leper Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 I see two "blatant untruths" in your nasty accusation:1) The claim that whoever told that story was "deliberately misleading people." Whoever said it had to actually know it wasn't true in order for it to be deliberate.2) The claim that "polyandry [was] doctrine of the church and had been widely practiced as part of the doctrine of celestial marriage."If I was as spitefully uncharitable as an EV Protestant who has been "savedbygrace," I'd have to assume that you knew those claims were false, wouldn't I?However, I'm not that spitefully uncharitable. I suppose you really believe that nonsense.Regards,PahoranOuch! And what you said. BTW, its nice to see you again. 1
sjdawg Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 I really don't think very many people, inside or outside of the LDS Church, deceive people on purpose. There is a lot of misinformation, individual misinterpretation, and repetition of rumors on both sides of the equation. 1
volgadon Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I really don't think very many people, inside or outside of the LDS Church, deceive people on purpose. There is a lot of misinformation, individual misinterpretation, and repetition of rumors on both sides of the equation.Exactly.
rayhale Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I shake my head, in wonder, why both inside and outside, of the church, people lift up missionaries to almost a Bishop, or a (Catholic) Priest, when like some people have said here, missionaries are not trained well enough to know even the scriptures, let alone Church History. This bit of information should be surprising, if not shocking, that a missionary is not required to even to read the scriptures, even the Book of Mormon to enter the mission field. They are not quizzed about church history, even the Joseph Smith First Vision, they are not required to go to Seminary, Institute, or have any previous, outside of church, school, besides to have a high school diploma or something similar (like a GED). So why do members, when talking about someone in-active, he, or she, is a return missionary? As if it’s a shock that a return missionary would go inactive. Or why do some other faiths all but parade return missionaries as if they are former Bishops, all but saying, “Look who we were able to lead towards Christ! A former Mormon Missionary!”
Tacenda Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) I shake my head, in wonder, why both inside and outside, of the church, people lift up missionaries to almost a Bishop, or a (Catholic) Priest, when like some people have said here, missionaries are not trained well enough to know even the scriptures, let alone Church History. This bit of information should be surprising, if not shocking, that a missionary is not required to even to read the scriptures, even the Book of Mormon to enter the mission field. They are not quizzed about church history, even the Joseph Smith First Vision, they are not required to go to Seminary, Institute, or have any previous, outside of church, school, besides to have a high school diploma or something similar (like a GED). So why do members, when talking about someone in-active, he, or she, is a return missionary? As if it’s a shock that a return missionary would go inactive. Or why do some other faiths all but parade return missionaries as if they are former Bishops, all but saying, “Look who we were able to lead towards Christ! A former Mormon Missionary!”Look who we send out to fight for our country, young 18 yr. olds! Atleast they are trained, maybe the spirit will lead the warriors, but not always. There needs to be more training imo, for the missionaries. They come back and look up all these things that are brought up that they had no idea about and they might go down the road that so many do and feel lied to. Edited February 27, 2013 by Tacenda
halconero Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I think we need to carefully tread the line between informed minister and theologian...I think that theology can, if not checked by humility and faith, destroy the spirit of the Restoration.I don't want theologians and historians entering into the homes of the elect, inviting them to come unto Christ. I want humble, simple speaking, but informed missionaries of God.I fear that if we, in the short time that we teach the missionaries, concentrate more on theology, church history and controversy and less on feeling, understanding and sharing the power of the Holy Ghost we will have lost what makes us different.And yes, it is an incredible thing to see a returned missionary go inactive or astray. If they served a faithful mission then there is a man or woman with intimate knowledge of the workings of the Spirit, which knowledge is of infinite more worth than all the knowledge in Church history, or even the world.Which reminds of a related topic. I sometimes find myself asking, of late...am I spending more time in prayer and the study of the scriptures or on this forum and church history?The answer troubles me. 1
Ahab Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) I sometimes find myself asking, of late...am I spending more time in prayer and the study of the scriptures or on this forum and church history?The answer troubles me.With time you'll understand that you can pray while you're doing anything, since all it requires is that you have your heart drawn out to God while being open to anything he may want to tell you about what you are doing or could be doing next. It's not as if you have to stop doing something to pray. You can pray anytime, either about something you are thinking of or while asking God for more guidance.Another thing you'll understand in time is that scriptures are generally understood to be what God inspired other people to write, unless you also believe God can inspire you to write something, including the thoughts involved before they are written down, so that you can even be writing scripture and thinking about scripture while you are writing on a message board, like this one.Sometimes the way to overcome answers that trouble you is to ask questions about how you can overcome those troubles, and while God is usually the best person to ask about things like that you can also ask someone who has already received those same answers from God and then ask God if he inspired those answers that person gave you.With God you can overcome all of your troubles, and you can always have God to be with you. Edited February 27, 2013 by Ahab
Nathair/|\ Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 With God you can overcome all of your troubles, and you can always have God to be with you.What about when even God doesn't want anything to do with you and to prove it, He took away the only thing that made life worth living?
Tacenda Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 What about when even God doesn't want anything to do with you and to prove it, He took away the only thing that made life worth living?I'm sorry for your loss.
volgadon Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 What about when even God doesn't want anything to do with you and to prove it, He took away the only thing that made life worth living?Have that someone whom you know drop me a line on facebook, as someone whom I know has just gone through similar sentiments, if they want a listening ear. 1
Nathair/|\ Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Have that someone whom you know drop me a line on facebook, as someone whom I know has just gone through similar sentiments, if they want a listening ear.I'm still waiting for your facebook contact information or your e-mail so I can send you my stories.
volgadon Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 I'm still waiting for your facebook contact information or your e-mail so I can send you my stories.You added me last year!
Nathair/|\ Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 You added me last year!I remember sending you a request, I didn't know it got approved.
Nathair/|\ Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 You added me last year!Nevermind, my grandma's brother has the same name as you, so I got confused.
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