Mormon Feminism. What Is It All About?

[volgadon]

Better artificial equality than no equality at all.

Artificial equality often is no equality at all, or worse.

[Damien the Leper]

It seems that the trend for excommunicating Mormon feminists was not that they taught any false doctrine but that they would not be silent. This is a concern for me.

[Bikeemikey]

It seems that the trend for excommunicating Mormon feminists was not that they taught any false doctrine but that they would not be silent. This is a concern for me.

This seems more an historic trend. I have not seen this kind of response in the last decade - please correct me if I am wrong.

[thesometimesaint]

Artificial equality often is no equality at all, or worse.

While I prefer the real kind. If I'm treated as though I do have equality. That is better than none at all.

[thesometimesaint]

It seems that the trend for excommunicating Mormon feminists was not that they taught any false doctrine but that they would not be silent. This is a concern for me.

In the Church you won't be ex'd for having your own beliefs, but teaching others that it is Church doctrine, after correction, will create problems.

Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to break that silence and remove all doubt.

[Damien the Leper]

This seems more an historic trend. I have not seen this kind of response in the last decade - please correct me if I am wrong.

No. You're not wrong. I believe the last feminist to be excommunicated was Margaret Merrill Toscano and that was in 2000. But Packet had been gunning for her even before her husband was excommunicated. She was the first target, especially after her termination from BYU. Paul took the heat off of her when he began to be extremely critical of church leadership. "All Is Not Well In Zion: False Teachings of the True Church" is what sealed Paul's excommunication.

[Damien the Leper]

In the Church you won't be ex'd for having your own beliefs, but teaching others that it is Church doctrine, after correction, will create problems.

Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to break that silence and remove all doubt.

Most feminist Mormon women that I know of were NOT teaching doctrine and they have admitted as much. I would include Lynne Kanavel Whitesides, Margaret Toscano, Maxine Hanks, Valeen Tippets Avery and Janice All red in this group.

[pogi]

What I’m basically saying is that no, we are not equal in education or career. The issue is not necessarily about over discrimination but a mix of cultural, seemingly conflicting religious messages, and structural systems problems all bunched as one.

I could go on, but I’m becoming long winded as it is.

I'm glad to hear that you recognize that it is not a matter of discrimination. I don't see it that way either. Women are empowered to choose their path just like men. Does culture influence their decisions to not go to school or work? Almost certainly. It is still their choice however, to live the culture and give into its influence. No one is forcing them. Women who blame others, need to let go of fear and stop the blame game, step out of the box, and not be afraid to walk up stream against the flow of expectation. Honestly, I don't think that it is men who are keeping women from going to school/work, I think it is women who are afraid of the judgment of other women, and so choose to live the culture of other women out of fear of rejection. That is their choice, but they need to recognize that it is not men that are holding them back for the most part.

Women also have the choice of whom they want to marry. If you want to go to school and work, you dang well better find a man that is willing to support you in that decision, or you have no one to blame but yourselves. It isn't too hard to find a man like that these days. Women are only victims if they choose to be. I know several successful LDS women who have Masters or Doctorate degrees and work and are great mothers all at the same time! They didn't seem to let the culture get to them, and guess what? They are highly respected, even within our culture. Why can they do it while others can't? They have no fear of cultural expectations! They refuse to be victims and blame others for their misfortunes.

[Maidservant]

I also feel it is unreasonable that we always focus on God's husband as THE God of the Universe.

I see the Godhead as a presidency for the limited purpose of our mortal ordinance. While it still is a commentary on gender, it is not as encompassing as the universe to me, since GOD is the entire covenant of the assembly of the firstborn, of which is full of men and women.

I've wondered for a while why it's not both a male and a female in charge of a ward

Well, at least in our ward, that would be the bishop and the Relief Society president. And believe me, our Relief Society presidents are IN CHARGE of what happens in this ward, not to the idea of taking over of the bishop's part, but what could possibly happen in our ward without the overseeing and the driving force of the great ladies?

I do not call myself a feminist because (among other things), I prefer to consider that calling myself a woman is sufficient. It is, in fact, telling that we have to add another word for the female portion of the cosmos (ha ha, as already mentioned, we don't have 'male-ism'). But I find many challenges and thought-provoking ideas in what sometimes labels itself as feminism, so I think it's an important voice.

[why me]

The problem with mormon feminists is that they seem limited to the lds church. They focus on the lds church and its need to conform to the mores of the times. However, mormon feminists seem less likely to embrace the entire notion of the various feminisms out there. For example, a mormon feminist can be a socialist feminist, a radical feminist, a liberal feminist or even a postmodern feminist. But within mormon feminism there seems to be only a woman's relationship to the lds church and nothing more. Thus, the concentration on priesthood, prayer in general conference, wear a pair of pants to church day etc. It becomes rather infantile when compared to the great intellectual tradition of the feminist movement itself.

Also, we don't hear of catholic feminism or methodist feminism. It seems more necessary for mormon subgroups to establish a term or title for everything pretaining to mormonism.

Edited January 21, 2013 by why me

[BlueDreams]

I'm glad to hear that you recognize that it is not a matter of discrimination. I don't see it that way either. Women are empowered to choose their path just like men. Does culture influence their decisions to not go to school or work? Almost certainly. It is still their choice however, to live the culture and give into its influence. No one is forcing them. Women who blame others, need to let go of fear and stop the blame game, step out of the box, and not be afraid to walk up stream against the flow of expectation. Honestly, I don't think that it is men who are keeping women from going to school/work, I think it is women who are afraid of the judgment of other women, and so choose to live the culture of other women out of fear of rejection. That is their choice, but they need to recognize that it is not men that are holding them back for the most part.

I wouldn't go that far. Discrimination still occurs as well. I meant to say overt discrimination, not over discrimination. My bad. I would still argue that it's very much present as covert discrimination. Like in those studies that measure male bias of female undergraduates or how differing views can correlate with how one treats women in the workplace. And this is just in the US. In much of the world would say there is still much overt discrimination that limits women as well. I am by no means suggesting that it is largely women who are keeping themselves down. I think it is both men and women who both have a role in maintaining the cultural and structural status quo. It's not just about women, it's about men as well. A small example: A professor once told a story in my class about one of her former student. She was a later convert, engaged, and had never received her patriarchal blessing. She felt it was right to get one before she married and her fiance came along. Her blessing mentioned extensively about her career and the great work that she'd do. Soon after her fiance dumped her for that exact reason. What he pictured in the future was not a wife with a career. Is that necessarily wrong? I don't know. I would be lying if I wasn't disgusted at the time. But it's indicative that the culture is not solely female. And bucking culture is not easy, nor without its repercussions.

I'm stating this from someone who seems to quite often rub up against cultural norms. I do and will continue to buck whatever cultural tradition that I see in my way for what I need to do. But It is far easier to write about doing so, to suggest to others to do the same, then it is to actually do it. I hold a lot of empathy for those who don't. It isn't easy. Especially when that goes beyond just bucking the local culture, but a cultural expectation so intrinsic that it is mentioned in conference talks and encouraged by apostles and prophets. If it were just the awkward fear of going against most of your neighbors, I would agree. But it's not and finding a balance is easier said than done.

Why me,

It's probably more varied than you see on face value. I'm very much interested in the larger world context. As a woman I'm grateful for where and when I am. I'm very aware that I live with much privilege not afforded to the vast majority of humanity and women in particular. But if the topic is specifically mormon women, especially in a US context, then I'm more likely to discuss the problems associated within that framework.

With luv,

BD

[DBMormon]

You may want to consider an interview with an LDS women named Brittney Hartley. While I would not in the least describe her as a feminist, she does a nice job of pointing out issues where she sees a need for improvement or dialogue in regards to womens issues

Part 1 - http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/01/16/interview-with-brittney-hartley-pt1/

part 2 - http://mormondiscuss...ey-hartley-pt2/

Edited January 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

The current FMH are getting away with alot! It must be because of the "Mormon Moment" or "I'm a Mormon" campaign, and wanting to put a good face on the church. Makes sense to me!

[why me]

Why me,

It's probably more varied than you see on face value. I'm very much interested in the larger world context. As a woman I'm grateful for where and when I am. I'm very aware that I live with much privilege not afforded to the vast majority of humanity and women in particular. But if the topic is specifically mormon women, especially in a US context, then I'm more likely to discuss the problems associated within that framework.

With luv,

BD

And yet, mormon feminism seems to be limited to the lds church. But what is forgotten about this is something more tangible: The lds church is claimed to be led by god and not influenced by the waves of popular causes that sway a church here and there. This being the case, I have no idea what mormon feminism can do for change in the lds church. But I would also say that mormon feminism is not necessary. What would be necessary is feminism in general without the word mormon in front of it. And this feminism needs to be clearly defined since there are many feminisms. But to create another subgroup or label as one of many labels now in place on the internet when it comes to mormons, well, It can get a little confusing.

[Calm]

Also, we don't hear of catholic feminism or methodist feminism.

I expect if one was Catholic one would hear at least as much about Catholic feminism as we do Mormon, if google is any indicator.

[Calm]

And yet, mormon feminism seems to be limited to the lds church.

What else would you call feminism that is concerned with the social dynamics of the LDS faith and culture?

[BlueDreams]

And yet, mormon feminism seems to be limited to the lds church. But what is forgotten about this is something more tangible: The lds church is claimed to be led by god and not influenced by the waves of popular causes that sway a church here and there. This being the case, I have no idea what mormon feminism can do for change in the lds church. But I would also say that mormon feminism is not necessary. What would be necessary is feminism in general without the word mormon in front of it. And this feminism needs to be clearly defined since there are many feminisms. But to create another subgroup or label as one of many labels now in place on the internet when it comes to mormons, well, It can get a little confusing.

I can't say much....I can only talk about the feminists that I've met who are mormon. Most of them probably don't see it as a subgroup but as two appropriate labels that have influence in their thoughts and lives....like how I might say I'm a mormon vegetarian. Am I a veggie for some special mormonesque reason? Not really. Do I find special concerns and considerations when those two converge? most definitely.

The feminists I've known are often related to my major or minor at BYU (since that's my major social reference). In psych, it's mentioned in the larger context of social roles and gender concepts etc....as well as within the context of the LDS Church. SImilarly my minor is international development. So their concerns are definitely within the larger context as well and is in no means limited to the church. But it does overlap with the church/cultural context. For me, at least, it was learning and recognizing incongruities and overall problems in the world and society in general then recognizing those same problems in varying manifestations within my own social contexts: whether in the US or the church. And unlike my vegetarian ways, there is far more connection to my LDS beliefs in interpreting my own perspective of gender relationships, equity, family relationships, and women's rights.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 21, 2013 by BlueDreams

[thesometimesaint]

Most feminist Mormon women that I know of were NOT teaching doctrine and they have admitted as much. I would include Lynne Kanavel Whitesides, Margaret Toscano, Maxine Hanks, Valeen Tippets Avery and Janice All red in this group.

Whitesides was Disfellowshiped not Excommunicated.

Margaret Toscano was Excommunicated for teaching false doctrine after counsel.

Maxine Hanks was Excommunicated for teaching false doctrine after counsel. She has since returned to the Church.

I don't know enough about Valeen Tippets Avery to say.

Janice Allred was Excommunicated for apostasy.

[why me]

I expect if one was Catholic one would hear at least as much about Catholic feminism as we do Mormon, if google is any indicator.

http://www.catholic-feminism.co.uk/

Not exactly pro feminist at all. We don't hear much about catholic feminism. And most likely if they do exist, they are not promoting something that is not basically serious such as pants day. And most likely such feminists are not limited to the catholic church.

Still, the basic point is: mormon feminists are attempting to undermine the prophets and instill the decisions of men and women on the church.

[Calm]

Still, the basic point is: mormon feminists are attempting to undermine the prophets and instill the decisions of men and women on the church.

Having known some Mormon feminists, I don't buy what you are attempting to sell here. Some may be, but not all.

[why me]

What else would you call feminism that is concerned with the social dynamics of the LDS faith and culture?

It depends on what is being advocated. For example, if the feminists are claiming patriarchy in the lds church and how such patriarchy should be eliminated I may call them radical feminists. If the feminist is concerned with capitalist social relations and its effects on the family and they are struggling to supplant capitalism and its hold on the lds membership, I may call them socialist feminists or Marxist feminists. Nor reason to attach the word mormon to them.

[bluebell]

http://www.catholic-feminism.co.uk/

Still, the basic point is: mormon feminists are attempting to undermine the prophets and instill the decisions of men and women on the church.

Blue Dreams has claimed in this thread that she considers herself to be a mormon feminist. Do you really believe she's 'attempting to undermine the prophets'?

I think you might be painting with an awfully big brush.

[why me]

Having known some Mormon feminists, I don't buy what you are attempting to sell here. Some may be, but not all.

Since some advocate that the lds church is controlled by men who are attempting to subjugate women, I would call it so. Since such feminists claim that women should hold the priesthood but the patriarchy of the lds church does not wish it...I may call it so. Some do not believe in the lds church and wish to pressure the leadership to change course which is understandable if they do not believe in revelation.

[why me]

Blue Dreams has claimed in this thread that she considers herself to be a mormon feminist. Do you really believe she's 'attempting to undermine the prophets'?

I think you might be painting with an awfully big brush.

I think that the point is basically simple: some do. And these no longer believe but use the term for their own purposes. Thus, the term mormon feminist can be hijacked by a radical fringe.

[BlueDreams]

I think that the point is basically simple: some do. And these no longer believe but use the term for their own purposes. Thus, the term mormon feminist can be hijacked by a radical fringe.

Do we stop using the term mormon when speaking of the LDS churchjust because some fundamentalists out there still call themselves that? Just because some do, doesn't mean that there is suddenly a need to really understand what's meant by mormon...or feminist. The general group is the major definition. And from what I've seen, how you've described mormon feminists is far from the general truth.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 21, 2013 by BlueDreams