‘Wear Pants’ Group To Lds Leaders: Let Women Pray At Conference

[juliann]

Please help me on this. I seem to remember that sisters were not given the opportunity to speak in General Conference until a few decades ago.

Am I mistaken?

No, but I don't remember exactly when. I clearly remember when we were instructed not to pray with our sisters when we visit taught. I never did figure that one out.

[Duncan]

Please help me on this. I seem to remember that sisters were not given the opportunity to speak in General Conference until a few decades ago.

Am I mistaken?

yes, critics point out that Sis. Grassli in 1988 was the first woman to speak in conference and that isn't true. In the early part of the century women spoke in conference, IIRC a woman spoke in the 1909 conference and some others and I have a hazy memory of a sister who spoke in the 1950's sometime. General auxillary leaders regularly spoke in welfare sessions at GC in the 70s and 80's. I suspect one reason that more women didn't speak more in the regular sessions of conference is because they had their own conferences

and what is more Sis. Barbara Smith spoke in the April 1984 general conference regular sessions as did two other sisters

http://www.lds.org/g...eng&media=video

[CV75]

What verses do you use to suggest that General Conference is priesthood meeting to which non-priesthood are invited and encouraged to attend.

None—I am going by current practice, where family members, non-members and others without a priesthood office are often invited to attend quorum meetings (but they do not pray to open and close the meeting).

How do you different between General Conference and the Priesthood Session of General Conference?

I see no substantive differentiation between the sessions of General Conference; each is a priesthood meeting and non-office holders are invited to attend any of them, including the Priesthood Session (in person and by electronic media), but they are not asked to pray. The Priesthood Session is distinctive in the topics covered, or at least how the topics are covered and applied to the responsibilities of priesthood office.

[CV75]

I think the old belief, where women were not allowed to pray in sacrament meeting, shows that a meeting being a priesthood meeting is definitely not the only reason that a woman would not give an opening prayer. We shouldn't dismiss the power of tradition when it comes to church policy.

Perhaps (note I prefaced my original remarks with “Maybe…”). A priesthood meeting, in my mind, would be the only valid reason for not adopting the practice of a non-office holder praying to open or close it, and this would explain the practice in General Conference, since there is precedent for it being a priesthood meeting (and in today's world, of several sessions and broad invitation for attendance).

(-not saying that's why women don't pray in GC right now, just pointing out that there is precedent for women not being allowed to do things in the church with no valid reason whatsoever)

I take this thread not to be about bringing up such precedents, and since there are many threads that have and will continue to charge the Church with short-sighted treatment of women, I won't ask for a CFR!

[CV75]

yes, critics point out that Sis. Grassli in 1988 was the first woman to speak in conference and that isn't true. In the early part of the century women spoke in conference, IIRC a woman spoke in the 1909 conference and some others and I have a hazy memory of a sister who spoke in the 1950's sometime. General auxillary leaders regularly spoke in welfare sessions at GC in the 70s and 80's. I suspect one reason that more women didn't speak more in the regular sessions of conference is because they had their own conferences.

Now as far as not even speaking in General Conference (as opposed to not praying for the priesthood meeting related reasons I posted), or speaking less than they do now, I would hazard a guess that such was a reflection of the American (and other) religious culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I would not say that women having their own conferences satisfies a speaking quota--I don't think one exists--I simply think the low proportion of women speakers is another function of General Conference being a priesthood meeting, and so the preponderance of speakers will hold a priesthood office.

[blackstrap]

Women generally do not attend any priesthood meeting unless invited. There is of course the joint meeting every 5th Sunday or such. Men don't generally attend a RS meeting although the Bishop and/or a councillor does attend on occasion. Now,as a priesthood holder may I regularly attend RS if I so choose? Do I need to be invited by the RS President? If the Bishop instructs me to attend do I still need the RS Pres. permission?

[Calm]

In the early part of the century women spoke in conference, IIRC a woman spoke in the 1909 conference and some others and I have a hazy memory of a sister who spoke in the 1950's sometime.

You hide your age very well.

[Duncan]

You hide your age very well.

you don't need to tell me twice!

[bluebell]

I take this thread not to be about bringing up such precedents, and since there are many threads that have and will continue to charge the Church with short-sighted treatment of women, I won't ask for a CFR!

Women not being able to pray in sacament meeting until 1978 seems to be very applicable to the discussion-especially when the reasons 'why' women don't pray in GC are pondered.

Understanding that when the church announced that women would be allowed to pray in sacrament, that the church released a statement saying it was because the leadership realized that there was no reason for them not to is also applicable to the discussion on why women don't pray in GC right now.

It's not a 'charge' against the church to discuss such things; these aren't allegations but simple facts that might help us understand this topic a bit better, especially when it's suggested that the only reason women might be excluded from praying in a meeting is if the meeting is a priesthood one.

(and i'm sorry if i missed it, but i did not see a 'maybe' preceeding your opening statement of your post i replied to).

[The Nehor]

The prayers are already long enough. This takes the risk of making them even longer........

[Duncan]

and what is more, Nehor, does anyone even listen to them?

see what I did there?, it rhymes

[The Nehor]

and what is more, Nehor, does anyone even listen to them?

I do. Sometimes I do not want to say "Amen" because they mention things I have no real interest in. The voice is supposed to represent everyone.....so keep it general.

“The concept of ‘too much and unnecessary’ could also apply to the length of our prayers. A closing prayer in a Church meeting need not include a summary of each message and should not become an unscheduled sermon. Private prayers can be as long as we want, but public prayers ought to be short supplications for the Spirit of the Lord to be with us or brief declarations of gratitude for what has transpired.” -Russel M Nelson

“Be sincere. Be brief. Be seated.” — FDR

“two minutes will open any kind of meeting, and a half minute will close it.” - Francis M. Lyman, apostle

Now when there are prayers in General Conference I go by that time limit and then ask the Lord to forgive anyone who goes over for going against the counsel of an apostle.

I have also heard from people who would know that the Twelve have told the Seventies in the past that GC prayers need to be shorter.

Another thing I hate is when the prayer giver goes on at length about something God already knows and everyone in the room knows. Do you imagine you shall be heard for your much speaking?

Some advice I got once from a friend:

When i find a prayer is going too long, instead of “amen!” I say “enfin!” at the end, which is french for “finally!” If you sorta mumble it, you can get away with it.

[Nathair/|\]

You hide your age very well.

Unfortunately, in a few million years, he'll look like this:

[CV75]

Women not being able to pray in sacament meeting until 1978 seems to be very applicable to the discussion-especially when the reasons 'why' women don't pray in GC are pondered.

Understanding that when the church announced that women would be allowed to pray in sacrament, that the church released a statement saying it was because the leadership realized that there was no reason for them not to is also applicable to the discussion on why women don't pray in GC right now.

It's not a 'charge' against the church to discuss such things; these aren't allegations but simple facts that might help us understand this topic a bit better, especially when it's suggested that the only reason women might be excluded from praying in a meeting is if the meeting is a priesthood one.

(and i'm sorry if i missed it, but i did not see a 'maybe' preceeding your opening statement of your post i replied to).

I can appreciate that (note: my “Maybe…” is in post #5).

Also, when King Benjamin’s speech is compared to a General Conference, and also to the Feast of Tabernacles (and other Israelite festivals, etc.) and these festivals are primarily a function of the high priest performing formal priesthood duties (and his authority is proclaimed or renewed, just like our sustaining vote in GC), one can legitimately make a connection between General Conference and a priesthood meeting and how they are conducted and tasks assigned.

It is easy to see why cultural factors would inform the practice of women not praying, and I agree these are less valid than how priesthood meetings are conducted. I already supported why/how General Conference might be viewed more as a priesthood meeting (albeit with broad attendance) than a more general meeting.

Now if next October a Sister gives a prayer in one or more GC sessions, then one might have to revise the above perspective if no explanation is offered by the Brethren.

[CV75]

Understanding that when the church announced that women would be allowed to pray in sacrament, that the church released a statement saying it was because the leadership realized that there was no reason for them not to is also applicable to the discussion on why women don't pray in GC right now.

But I suggested a reason why women don't pray in GC where this explanation might not apply. I don't mind that not being the case in the event the practice or reasoning should change, but at least where things stand now, the more plausible or defensible explanation (to me) would be a doctrinal one, not a cultural one.

[The Nehor]

I think the reason that women do not pray in conference is that everyone who is involved is one of the General Authorities or General Officers of the Church. All the auxiliary presidencies (and the presiding bishopric) by custom have one of their number speak. A few seventies speak but most do not and in general auxiliary leaders get to speak more often then most Seventies. To help the Seventies feel important we let them say prayers. I guess we could have each auxiliary presidency also give a prayer but then the Seventies would get truly restless and we might have an uprising.

[DavidB]

Do not know if the comparison has been raised yet, but it could be just similar to the limitations on the Priesthood. As I understand the chain of the event with the Priesthood, the First Presidency and 12 would receiving numerous requests and question about extending the Preisthood to all worthy males. As I understand it, these inquires lead the First Presidency and 12 to ask the Lord for direction - which ultimately lead to OD 2.

Similarly (though not exactly the same), this current campaign of women offering prayer in General Conference could be doing the same thing as bringing an issue to the attention of the First Presidency and 12; and they can seek guidance on it.

It is not uncommon, for humans to adhere to traditions for no other reason than to adhere to tradition.

[Tacenda]

Do not know if the comparison has been raised yet, but it could be just similar to the limitations on the Priesthood. As I understand the chain of the event with the Priesthood, the First Presidency and 12 would receiving numerous requests and question about extending the Preisthood to all worthy males. As I understand it, these inquires lead the First Presidency and 12 to ask the Lord for direction - which ultimately lead to OD 2.

Similarly (though not exactly the same), this current campaign of women offering prayer in General Conference could be doing the same thing as bringing an issue to the attention of the First Presidency and 12; and they can seek guidance on it.

It is not uncommon, for humans to adhere to traditions for no other reason than to adhere to tradition.

My feelings exactly. There are tons of times the Presidency has to make it a matter of prayer, where this is a man run church but the men in it seek revelation just as JS did.

[Stargazer]

This is probably the same reason why Sacrament meeting prayers were given by priesthood holders for a while. The likely reason for this was because the Sacrament is a priesthood ordinance, and therefore all prayers given in the Sacrament meeting were restricted to priesthood holders.

During the 1970s women's lib was getting into full swing and a few women were complaining that they were not being allowed to participate as much as they should in church meetings and leadership positions. The Church leaders did not change any doctrine or official policies because of this, but I think they did realize that there was no scriptural reason for why women could not pray in Sacrament meeting. It was mostly out of tradition that only priesthood holders would give the prayers. It was then that they decided to encourage Bishops to call on both men and women to pray. In 1978 the following announcement was made:

“The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve have determined that there is no scriptural prohibition against sisters offering prayers in sacrament meetings. It was therefore decided that it is permissible for sisters to offer prayers in any meetings they attend, including sacrament meetings, Sunday School meetings, and stake conferences. Relief Society visiting teachers may offer prayers in homes that they enter in fulfilling visiting teaching assignments.” (Marvin K. Gardner, “News of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 100)

Perhaps the same reasoning could be applied to General Conference.

Now, I happen to recall when the switch was made, but it wasn't made completely all at once. First, the policy changed to permit sisters to give the benediction in Sacrament meeting, but that a priesthood holder (not just a man) still had to give the invocation. This was later further changed to drop the priesthood holder requirement.

In some wards there may still be some brethren who never got the word -- in mine, for example. Just a few years ago I noticed that our Executive Secretary (who is responsible for assigning prayers in Sacrament Meeting in our ward) never asked a sister to give the invocation. I causally mentioned to him that the policy had changed "some years back", and then he started occasionally asking a sister to give the invocation. Just recently, with a change in ES, sisters gave the invocation during the last several weeks in a row.

It's all good.

[rpn]

I just don't understand why if any of these petitioners are believing church members, that they don't simply ask Jesus to inspire His leaders to let women pray at conference? Believers should know that if He wants them to, He'll make sure they do it.

[Calm]

Perhaps they believe that Christ answered their prayers by telling them to do this or something else that would motivate leaders to also ask the Lord about changing things.

[Damien the Leper]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/55627824-180/general-women-church-conference.html.csp

Thoughts on why women haven't been allowed to pray in Conference? I know that it use to be that way in Sacrament meetings...but could it also happen in General Conference? Not that I really care one way or another. I'm not a big feminist. But do however see a striking difference of male vs. female ratio of speakers in General Conference.

At least the church wouldn't need revelation from God to implement such a change. That would be ridiculous.

[Damien the Leper]

Would an Apostle in a modest dress be a good compromise?

Only if he grows a full beard.

[Damien the Leper]

Maybe the practice is a reference to instruction given in the D&C, where “conference” and “general conference” were primarily priesthood meetings. Though all members may be invited to attend, only some are invited to speak and act on most or all of “church business” except the general sustaining. So while priesthood office may have something to do with presiding, conducting, assigning talks and dedicating the meeting via opening and closing prayers, it is a great example of how the priesthood blesses all members regardless of priesthood office.

That would be a reasonable explanation if it weren't for the fact that women are priesthood holders by virtue of the temple. The D&C doesn't appear to split hairs.

[Damien the Leper]

I frankly think it's simply a matter of tradition. In the NT women weren't allowed to speak in church. I doubt very much Christ inaugerated that.

That's one of the problems I have with 1 Timothy. It just doesn't mesh right with Romans and 1 Corinthians.