‘Wear Pants’ Group To Lds Leaders: Let Women Pray At Conference

[CV75]

That would be a reasonable explanation if it weren't for the fact that women are priesthood holders by virtue of the temple. The D&C doesn't appear to split hairs.

In many cases it doesn't, but the D&C revelatons I cited refer to those with priesthood office--I'm pretty sure I brought that point up; there are differences between priesthood order, power and office. Women have priesthood order and power, bit not an office (elder, priest, yeacher, etc.).

[Damien the Leper]

In many cases it doesn't, but the D&C revelatons I cited refer to those with priesthood office--I'm pretty sure I brought that point up; there are differences between priesthood order, power and office. Women have priesthood order and power, bit not an office (elder, priest, yeacher, etc.).

Hmmm....

[rongo]

I do. Sometimes I do not want to say "Amen" because they mention things I have no real interest in. The voice is supposed to represent everyone.....so keep it general . . . Another thing I hate is when the prayer giver goes on at length about something God already knows and everyone in the room knows. Do you imagine you shall be heard for your much speaking?

Seems like a good place to quote two entries from Orson Scott Card's "Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary:"

prayer, public For most Saints, public prayer means acting as the voice for a whole congregation in speaking to the Lord. To some, however, it is a difficult and sophisticated art form, a four-part speech in which the speaker is perpetually confused about whether he is talking to the congregation or to God. For those who wish to become a master of this art and impress their friends, the parts of the prayer are: 1. Calling upon God. Little children call him Heavenly Father. Grown-ups generally call him Our Father in Heaven. People who know what's what, however, know that the Lord only hears prayers if he is addressed loudly, firmly, and by elaborate titles. 2. Thanking. This is the part where the person who really knows how to pray usually congratulates the congregation for being better than nonmembers and the sinners who stayed home, and praises the Lord for recognizing their superior virtue by making them rich enough to build such a fancy meetinghouse. 3. Asking. In the closing prayer, or benediction, this is the part where the really talented speaker will repeat the main points of every single talk given in the meeting and add his comments to them as he asks the Lord to help the congregation remember what they learned. In an opening prayer, or invocation, this is the speaker's opportunity to inform the Lord of where the world needs fixing up and to tell the congregation what sins they ought to repent of. 4. Closing. The best prayers are not given in the mere name of Jesus Christ; they are given with as many titles as the speaker can muster.

Prayerspeak A highly elevated language used in Mormon prayers. It consists of a limited repertoire of incantatory phrases, a mystical vocabulary of long or archaic words that are rarely understood by anyone, and a grammar built around the misuse of the second person singular pronoun. 1. Incantatory phrases can range from a few words, like "the sick and afflicted” and the all-purpose "bless that... and we thank thee for;" to whole sentences, like, "Bless those who aren't here this time that they may come next time"; "Bless us with all those blessings of which which we stand in need of"; and "We thank thee for this beautiful Sabbath day in which we have to come and worship thee." These serve the function of surrounding the congregation with familiar sounds, letting them feel at home and comfortable in the meeting. (See also "Let a portion of thy Spirit be with us.") 2. The mystical vocabulary consists of frequently repeated words like which, preserve, gracious, endeavor, numberless, and bounteous. Especially daring speakers even venture to use the really potent words: wast, wouldst, shalt, hath, hast, and art, to name a few. These words all derive from the English language, but they have lost all meaning. Rather, they are used to impart an aura of spirituality and exaltation to the prayer, and, when used, someone fluent in Prayerspeak, can make a perfectly common public prayer into an ecstatic musical experience. 3. The second person pronoun is usually used to refer to God, but where it once suggested intimacy and love, it now suggests the utmost distance and formality. Almost no one uses the nominative thou as it is used in English, however, and thee as a nominative sounds Quakerish. The most common solutions are either to mix up yous and thees and yours and thys willy-nilly, or to use thy as an all-purpose second-person: "We are grateful that thy has permitted us to be members of thy Church, and we endeavor to serve thy to the best of our ability."

[Senator]

I just don't understand why if any of these petitioners are believing church members, that they don't simply ask Jesus to inspire His leaders to let women pray at conference? Believers should know that if He wants them to, He'll make sure they do it.

It usually doesn't sit well when the underlings go over the boss' head.

[Senator]

Hmmm....

Me too...

[CV75]

Hmmm....

Me too...

If women do not open and close priesthood meetings with prayer (and the only distinction between them and the men is priesthood office, since both have priesthood order in the temple covenants and priesthood power—or power in the priesthood--through faith in the priesthood [for those not endowed] and/or those covenants [for those who are endowed]) and General Conference is a priesthood meeting, then this would make sense. Reasons to consider General Conference a priesthood meeting are that it is often compared to King Benjamin’s “Feast of tabernacles” and other Israelite conclaves and festivals, and that the references to conferences in the D&C pertain to conducting priesthood business. Women and children and others without the priesthood or priesthood office can be invited to and speak and participate in priesthood meetings or sessions or subsessions of those meetings, as in General Conference.

Now this may not be the case at all, or a new dispensation may be given, so this is just my observation.

[Senator]

If women do not open and close priesthood meetings with prayer (and the only distinction between them and the men is priesthood office, since both have priesthood order in the temple covenants and priesthood power—or power in the priesthood--through faith in the priesthood [for those not endowed] and/or those covenants [for those who are endowed]) and General Conference is a priesthood meeting, then this would make sense. Reasons to consider General Conference a priesthood meeting are that it is often compared to King Benjamin’s “Feast of tabernacles” and other Israelite conclaves and festivals, and that the references to conferences in the D&C pertain to conducting priesthood business. Women and children and others without the priesthood or priesthood office can be invited to and speak and participate in priesthood meetings or sessions or subsessions of those meetings, as in General Conference.

Now this may not be the case at all, or a new dispensation may be given, so this is just my observation.

I can appreciate your theory. But I get the feel that it is an ad hoc delineation in order to make the cultural tradition jive. It would be very interesting to hear a GA say that women "have/hold priesthood power/order" but simply no office. Maybe they have and I've missed it.

I'm more of the mind that this is a "doctrinal notion" that women can't pray in GC, such that, if things were done differently we would find that it make no difference at all who prays.

I wonder what would happen if we took a pragmatic approach and just tried it! Have women pray at GC for a while and just see what happens. Maybe we would notice some diminishing effect on the whole proceedings, something missing, giving us an indication that Heavenly Father is displeased with having his daughters praying at this particular meeting.

[ERayR]

Note: Those doing the most complaining are not in a position to have to pray before millions.

[CV75]

I think the reason that women do not pray in conference is that everyone who is involved is one of the General Authorities or General Officers of the Church. All the auxiliary presidencies (and the presiding bishopric) by custom have one of their number speak. A few seventies speak but most do not and in general auxiliary leaders get to speak more often then most Seventies. To help the Seventies feel important we let them say prayers. I guess we could have each auxiliary presidency also give a prayer but then the Seventies would get truly restless and we might have an uprising.

Yes--this reminds me of the 99% complaining at the Sundance film festival (last year?) that only 1% of the independent films were chosen to represent. Well, if that were the case, the festival would have to triple in size and run all year. So there is a practicality about it, I suppose. Of over 100 GAs and auxilliary officers, only 8 can pray in the general sessions, and most of them would rotate out before their 13-year lot was drawn (if it were done like the temple courses in ancient Israel). So the numbers might get in the way of any attempt to make it fair and raise false hopes and expectations.

[CV75]

I can appreciate your theory. But I get the feel that it is an ad hoc delineation in order to make the cultural tradition jive. It would be very interesting to hear a GA say that women "have/hold priesthood power/order" but simply no office. Maybe they have and I've missed it.

I'm more of the mind that this is a "doctrinal notion" that women can't pray in GC, such that, if things were done differently we would find that it make no difference at all who prays.

I wonder what would happen if we took a pragmatic approach and just tried it! Have women pray at GC for a while and just see what happens. Maybe we would notice some diminishing effect on the whole proceedings, something missing, giving us an indication that Heavenly Father is displeased with having his daughters praying at this particular meeting.

The terms, “order,” power” and office” are used in the D&C under specific enough conditions that I don’t take them to be “ad hoc.” “Order” of course is used in connection with marriage so it apples to men and women (D&C 131); “power” applies to men in reference to the keys but to women also in reference to D&C 121:41and D&C 84; “office” of course is taken to refer to men only (D&C 107). I also think “obtaining” refers to men only, but “receiving” refers to both men and women in D&C 84:33-42. Just some examples.

But if current practice is only a doctrinal notion, then hopefully the light shall burst forth upon us in due time. If we tried something new, it would have to avoid the problems at Sundance, for that would be a terrible distraction from the spirit of the proceedings and exceedingly impractical!

[Tacenda]

Note: Those doing the most complaining are not in a position to have to pray before millions.

It's probably enough just to give a talk! Without a teleprompter giving them the words to their talk. I think that would be the scariest thing ever, to just wing it in front of millions! Could it be that some women just flat out refused to give a prayer and things just kind of evolved from there?

ETA: Wait, I forgot, women pray all the time in Women's Conference!

[ERayR]

It's probably enough just to give a talk! Without a teleprompter giving them the words to their talk. I think that would be the scariest thing ever, to just wing it in front of millions! Could it be that some women just flat out refused to give a prayer and things just kind of evolved from there?

ETA: Wait, I forgot, women pray all the time in Women's Conference!

I wasn't demeaning woman. That is my personal reaction. For me it is not impossible but the magnitude of the endeavor is not lost on me.

[Tacenda]

I wasn't demeaning woman. That is my personal reaction. For me it is not impossible but the magnitude of the endeavor is not lost on me.

I didn't say you did, kiddo.

[canard78]

No, but I don't remember exactly when. I clearly remember when we were instructed not to pray with our sisters when we visit taught. I never did figure that one out.

Was that an official instruction or a local leader getting things mixed up?

[canard78]

I just don't understand why if any of these petitioners are believing church members, that they don't simply ask Jesus to inspire His leaders to let women pray at conference? Believers should know that if He wants them to, He'll make sure they do it.

That's not the way it works. There's no 'floating quill' that springs into life without request.

The Word of Wisdom was revealed after Emma (a woman) complained about the mess.

Lorenzo Snow's re-emphasis on the tithing as 10% of income came after he looked for a solution to Tithing issue.

The change from 19 to 18 for FT missionaries came after the church looked into a solution for the drop off in activity after high-school.

Even the first vision happened after Joseph went and asked which church to join.

If the Brethren don't know that it's a concern then they won't think to ask, if they don't ask Heavenly Father will probably leave them to it. It's very rare that an unsolicited intervention happens.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's not the way it works. There's no 'floating quill' that springs into life without request.

The Word of Wisdom was revealed after Emma (a woman) complained about the mess.

Lorenzo Snow's re-emphasis on the tithing as 10% of income came after he looked for a solution to Tithing issue.

The change from 19 to 18 for FT missionaries came after the church looked into a solution for the drop off in activity after high-school.

Even the first vision happened after Joseph went and asked which church to join.

If the Brethren don't know that it's a concern then they won't think to ask, if they don't ask Heavenly Father will probably leave them to it. It's very rare that an unsolicited intervention happens.

There is, perhaps, a thin line between a well-intentioned suggestion or expression of concern leading to inspired change or innovation and something akin to political pressure or activism a la an orchestrated letter-writing/call-in/mass-media campaign. The former has time-honored precedent within the Church of Jesus Christ; the latter does not.

[DavidB]

That's not the way it works. There's no 'floating quill' that springs into life without request.

The Word of Wisdom was revealed after Emma (a woman) complained about the mess.

Lorenzo Snow's re-emphasis on the tithing as 10% of income came after he looked for a solution to Tithing issue.

The change from 19 to 18 for FT missionaries came after the church looked into a solution for the drop off in activity after high-school.

Even the first vision happened after Joseph went and asked which church to join.

If the Brethren don't know that it's a concern then they won't think to ask, if they don't ask Heavenly Father will probably leave them to it. It's very rare that an unsolicited intervention happens.

I agree. Whether the social media de jour is face to face, ink and quilt, landline, online groups...the point still stands that changes and/or policies have come about because person(s) raised the concern with Prophets and Apostles.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree. Whether the social medicine de jour is face to face, ink and quilt, landline, online groups...the point still stands that changes and/or policies have come about because person(s) raised the concern with Prophets and Apostles.

I reiterate the message of my last post: There's a distinction between the mere raising of concern and the mounting of an orchestrated, mass-media-driven pressure campaign.

[The Nehor]

It's probably enough just to give a talk! Without a teleprompter giving them the words to their talk. I think that would be the scariest thing ever, to just wing it in front of millions! Could it be that some women just flat out refused to give a prayer and things just kind of evolved from there?

ETA: Wait, I forgot, women pray all the time in Women's Conference!

On the bright side if you screw up they never ask you to do it again,

[DH]

As I tried to point out, the only reason a woman would not give an opening prayer in a Church meeting is if it is a priesthood meeting, and general conferences in the D&C seem to allude to such conferences being priesthood meetings. Those without the priesthood are often invited to attend and speak in priesthood meetings, and if this is the case, GC as a priesthood meeting would follow the same pattern we are familiar with in our local quorums.

Um, maybe investigators who are men are often invited to attend priesthood meetings, but women and children very seldom are. I don't think most people view General Conference, other than General Priesthood Meeting, as a priesthood meeting. Women and children attend General Conference as a matter of course, not by special invitation.

[DH]

I just don't understand why if any of these petitioners are believing church members, that they don't simply ask Jesus to inspire His leaders to let women pray at conference? Believers should know that if He wants them to, He'll make sure they do it.

Some believers believe that God doesn't expect us (or the leaders) to just sit around and be commanded in all things. Spencer Kimball didn't get the revelation extending the priesthood to men of all races until he asked God about it. Being engaged with God is a two-way street. Besides, in this case, no revelation is needed--it's already Church policy that women can pray in meetings. I see no problem with members prodding their leaders in certain directions or asking questions about stuff.

[Stargazer]

Yes--this reminds me of the 99% complaining at the Sundance film festival (last year?) that only 1% of the independent films were chosen to represent. Well, if that were the case, the festival would have to triple in size and run all year. So there is a practicality about it, I suppose. Of over 100 GAs and auxilliary officers, only 8 can pray in the general sessions, and most of them would rotate out before their 13-year lot was drawn (if it were done like the temple courses in ancient Israel). So the numbers might get in the way of any attempt to make it fair and raise false hopes and expectations.

I don't think it is only GA's who give prayers in conference. My mission president was invited to give a prayer at one of the sessions of conference in April 1975. He was announced as having recently returned from his mission.

[CV75]

Um, maybe investigators who are men are often invited to attend priesthood meetings, but women and children very seldom are. I don't think most people view General Conference, other than General Priesthood Meeting, as a priesthood meeting. Women and children attend General Conference as a matter of course, not by special invitation.

"Um"? What do you mean to convey by the use of that expresion of hesitation / pause?

"Very seldom"? My memory isn't all that great, and in my experiece, it hasn't been all that uncommon--it is by invitation (neither special nor otherwise), just like non-member and unordained men (but I said that already). All people everywhere are invited (neither by special invitation nor otherwise) to attend General Conference--doesn't make it "not" a priesthood meeting.

I don't think that "most people" viewing GC as a priesthood meaning, in light of the examples I provided, justifies it not being one. And ultimately, it is not "most people's" call.

[CV75]

I don't think it is only GA's who give prayers in conference. My mission president was invited to give a prayer at one of the sessions of conference in April 1975. He was announced as having recently returned from his mission.

I agree--my post was in response to a suggestion that the prayer assignment was a function of the ratio of male:female authorities and officers and the length of service within these calls. I also remember at least one non-GA / Officer giving a talk in the Ptriesthood Session (an Olympic gymnast, and perhaps one other--it's been quite awhile).

[cdowis]

Priesthood leaders are invited to give the prayer, and this is a long standing "practice" not actually a policy.

As such it took on a life of its own without anyone questioning it. Considering the recent change in age of missionaries, the brethren are willing to look at making such changes.