mfbukowski Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) Here you go!http://www.saddleback.com/Celebrate Christmas with the Saddleback family. We’ll have a snow zone open after the Christmas services, festive Christmas celebrations, delicious treats and coffee, free family photos and more! Our Christmas services begin today at 7 p.m.... Edited December 30, 2012 by mfbukowski
Duncan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Oh come on! Think of all the energy wasted by saying "Heh?" at the end of every sentence! huh? it's eh! 1
Duncan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 You are probably right about attendance, there are churches in my area that have attendance in the thousands, but they do not teach exaltation. Their pastors are charismatic men that are expert preachers and expert at getting donations.But they do not teach the humble gospel of Christ as I know it.And we are all meant to GROW into the stature of Elder Eyring's father and indeed Elder Eyring himself who were NOT PAID CLERGY.How do you think they got there? By being entertained or by doing?I don't understand this sentence.As a former bishop, I have learned that counseling is not as important as teaching doctrine as a means to counseling and indeed that is what bishops are counseled to do.When you teach the doctrine of eternal marriage and what it means to be Christlike in marriage, you are making direct intervention in a marriage. You are showing the couple how Christ would handle the issues before them- counseling in the sense of what a professional psychologist would do seldom enters into it. And indeed if professional help is necessary, it is available through LDS social services, free of charge if necessary.Nothing is lost by having Bishops who are not professional psychological counselors- professionals are just a phone call away, and they work directly with the Bishops and confer on the direction the counseling should take, on a regular basis.Nothing at all is lost and much is gained by having BOTH a spiritual teacher and a professional when necessary.good bishops call in experts but I have had three who wouldn't do that and have heard stories of others who didn't either
mfbukowski Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 huh? it's eh!Nah, that's just your weird accent dropping the initial "H".
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Wait...you were here over the holiday?!Yeah.
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Did you not see the golden glow in the sky?I doubt it was like that.
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Oh come on! Think of all the energy wasted by saying "Heh?" at the end of every sentence! Lol
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 huh? it's eh!Nah, that's just your weird accent dropping the initial "H". Are we going to have a misrepresentation or character defamation lawsuit?
halconero Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Yeah.You and I in the same city once again. We need to hook up for lunch the next time this happens.Sorry! I'll stop highjacking the thread!
Duncan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) Are we going to have a misrepresentation or character defamation lawsuit?too bad Canadian born Raymond Burr aka Perry Mason is no longer around! we could have gotten him to represent us! he was born in a place named British Columbia! Edited December 30, 2012 by Duncan
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 I didn't want to hijack Tacenda's thread on paid clergy, so I thought I would start my own. Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did. Not a good idea.
Stargazer Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Better talks help. Too many read a wrote out plagarism of someone else and are unable to look up and speak. A comfortable speaker makes a world of difference. To say you can feel just as inspired by bad speakers as you can good ones is possible on occasion but when weighed as a whole..... it doesn't hold waterThe funny thing is, we listen to special musical performances at our sacrament meetings all the time and these are renditions of usually well known works. What is wrong with giving a talk that has been given before? Isn't the information valuable in itself, regardless of who wrote it, and especially so if it were written by someone who knew what he or she was talking about?I think I would rather hear a "plagiarized" talk which was interesting and well-delivered than a poorly constructed and delivered one. It turns out that I have a small repetoire of talks which I have written and if I am called upon unexpectedly to give a talk, I can trot out one of these with no notice whatever. I am plagiarizing myself in these cases.
Duncan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 You and I in the same city once again. We need to hook up for lunch the next time this happens.Sorry! I'll stop highjacking the thread!this has turned into Sleepless in Toronto!
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 You and I in the same city once again. We need to hook up for lunch the next time this happens.Sorry! I'll stop highjacking the thread!You're fine. I should have thought to contact you.
Damien the Leper Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 too bad Canadian born Raymond Burr aka Perry Mason is no longer around! we could have gotten him to represent us! he was born in a place named British Columbia!True that. It would make a compelling drama. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 I also know that i have been to churches with paid clergy where i didn't think the speaker was very good at all. Just because someone is trained and paid, doesn't mean they are fantastic at it.I worked for a year for the Church of England, and it was a condition of my employment that I attend mass each Wednesday. We had a trained priest, obviously, and it's true that he could consistently produce a polished homily, but in this instance there really wasn't any there there. Please give me instead a sincere, heartfelt sermon like the one we got to hear in our sacrament meeting this afternoon, given by an airplane mechanic who repeaptedly mispronounced 'tsunami' and stumbled over other words but who has the gospel of Jesus Christ both written on the tables of his heart and sunk deep into the marrow of his bones, who knows whereof he speaks because he's had to live it.I still haven't seen anybody respond to the lack of family time.Today I presided over sacrament meeting by myself (because our bishop and first counsellor are both away on holiday), spoke in sacrament meeting, taught Sunday school to the 16-to-18 year olds, taught the deacons quorum class, and assisted the clerk with offerings (including making the deposit). I still prefer the simple sincerity that surrounds me in an LDS service. 3
BlueDreams Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 I didn't want to hijack Tacenda's thread on paid clergy, so I thought I would start my own. Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did. No, Heck No. Pardon my mormon french. But I would never ever ever trade in the lay ministry with all its quarky moments with a paid ministry. I'm not a big fan....maybe I haven't seen enough and should get a better taste for the various types, but I don't enjoy them. Some it just seems too showy. My first one felt like they were putting on and performance monologue (it was baptist). I didn't mind the second catholic one, he seemed down to earth. the first was a little to grandiose. TV evans are annoying to me, etc. Are their good talks/speeches/sermons. Of course. I'm just not willing to trade it out for someone paid to do it when it's still hit or miss whether I'll enjoy them.Is there a difference? Yes, of course. A 12 year old will not hold up to a 35 yr old enthusiastic preacher. I'll take the 12 yr old though. I like the system. I enjoy the growing process that happens together as we all take turns and listen to each other and some day bare through it and flip open my scriptures through a really dull talk. I prefer the experience of learning from my peers rather than learning from an expert. If you were able to attend, think back to your time in institute, where the lessons were interesting, funny and filled with the spirit and compare this to a typical elders quorum lesson where half the people are checking out Facebook, and the other half are ready to gouge their eyes out because they don't get Internet reception while the teacher reads through the lesson he started to prepare during sacrament meeting.I only attended institute once in TX....outside of UT seminary and institute were not paid. They were heavy duty callings. It was exactly as you mentioned, still though. Fun, spirit-filled. And I've never attended elder's quorum. If you don't like it go to RS....A lesson like you mentioned is unfathomable in Relief Society. Seriously. The whole ice sculpture thing is bogus. But the lesson is usually wrapped in discussion and meaningful questions. With questions asked by teachers and the people and they feed off of each other. By the end I usually feel edified. That I've learned something that I can take with me for the week. It's rewarding and usually my favorite hour. Even a mediocre lesson in RS is still fairly attention grabbing. A great lesson will leave the room teary and talking even after the lesson is done. So you have issues with Elder's Quorum, don't pay someone, steal a sister and have a lesson just on how to teach. Or have them teach so there's some competition in good lessons. Copping out and paying someone is silly you have the resources to having better lessons right next door .Finally, a paid clergy could be trained in counseling. A significant portion of a bishop's time is spent counseling members in any one of a number of areas. Someone who has been a contractor, or doctor, by trade is now expected to be counselor without any training. I think we can do better than this.This is true....professional counselling would be great. But I think there's ways to make this more effective within the LDS faith without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.With luv,BD 2
Popular Post thesometimesaint Posted December 30, 2012 Popular Post Posted December 30, 2012 Better talks would be a high price to pay for the perfecting of the Saints. 5
Blah Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 When my wife first began investigating the church, this was something that impressed her. As a child she had known a few apathetic and unenthusiastic pastors and teachers in her parents' church. Part of what she found so endearing about the LDS faith is that those who preach, teach, counsel, etc. do so on their own time and without pay. They are asked (or called) to volunteer their time and efforts. I cannot imagine anyone with a family, a job, and the obligations that come with each making that kind of sacrifice for something they don't believe in and don't care about. 2
Popular Post Tacenda Posted December 30, 2012 Popular Post Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) My sacrament meeting ran the gamut from having two very confident 12 yr. old young women giving talks like they'd been doing it all their lives to an adult woman who struggled like a 12 yr. old might and said up front she had a fear of public speaking and when she sat down, she sobbed. To her husband who spoke so eloquently I swear he was reciting Shakespeare. And all 4 of their talks were inspiring in their own way. I'd get tired if every week was perfect and well rehearsed. Edited December 30, 2012 by Tacenda 5
sheilauk Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 In my experience, being a paid minister & going to a Seminary college does not make you a good speaker or counsellor. Italso doesn't mean you never hear lay people speak. Some churches can't afford enough ministers for every parish & one I went to had lay speakers 3 weeks out of 4. I like that everyone has an opportunity to learn something by preparing & delivering a talk. And I take something to do in case I find it hard to listen! More training on communication & counselling skills would be useful. But I think that it builds our community by having lay leaders (locally) and lay teachers & builds our patience in having to listen to whoever is called, regardless of their skill level. 1
omni Posted December 30, 2012 Author Posted December 30, 2012 I'll admit, much of my desire is selfish for wanting consistently interesting (note, I never said entertaining) and thought provoking church meetings. This however would not create a contest of bishops competing for congregants seeing who could out do who as some have suggested. We would still have our assigned wards and bishops would be paid at a standard rate just as CES employees are.I really feel for the bishopric/stake presidency, with the amount of time they spend away from their families, not to mention the added responsibility that is suddenly thrust upon, and I might add that they never asked for. I mean does anybody here really want to be bishop, do you know anyone who does? I know it's the system we have, but it seems like we can do better.
Tacenda Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 In my experience, being a paid minister & going to a Seminary college does not make you a good speaker or counsellor. Italso doesn't mean you never hear lay people speak. Some churches can't afford enough ministers for every parish & one I went to had lay speakers 3 weeks out of 4. I like that everyone has an opportunity to learn something by preparing & delivering a talk. And I take something to do in case I find it hard to listen! More training on communication & counselling skills would be useful. But I think that it builds our community by having lay leaders (locally) and lay teachers & builds our patience in having to listen to whoever is called, regardless of their skill level.I think involving congregrants is good. I do think of the non LDS sermons I've listened to online often and them being very Christ centered. So really not a lot experience of attending in person since I've been LDS since birth. I do want to attend other faiths this year since my church starts at 1 pm next year. Then maybe I will walk the walk instead of talk the talk, referring to the previous post I made.
thesometimesaint Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 Omni:We are not to seek after church callings, but we do have the right of first refusal
ERayR Posted December 30, 2012 Posted December 30, 2012 I'll admit, much of my desire is selfish for wanting consistently interesting (note, I never said entertaining) and thought provoking church meetings. This however would not create a contest of bishops competing for congregants seeing who could out do who as some have suggested. We would still have our assigned wards and bishops would be paid at a standard rate just as CES employees are.I really feel for the bishopric/stake presidency, with the amount of time they spend away from their families, not to mention the added responsibility that is suddenly thrust upon, and I might add that they never asked for. I mean does anybody here really want to be bishop, do you know anyone who does? I know it's the system we have, but it seems like we can do better.It is your perception that it would be better but it doesn't appear that God agrees with you yet.
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