Is It Time Or The Church To Have A Paid Ministry?

[omni]

I didn't want to hijack Tacenda's thread on paid clergy, so I thought I would start my own. Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did.

I can see many advantages to this, first off I think the quality of talks and lessons would improve dramatically. I know members generally try their best when giving a talk or lesson, but there's a huge difference between someone who is trained, and experienced compared to someone who is giving a talk for the first or second time and would rather be any place but there.

If you were able to attend, think back to your time in institute, where the lessons were interesting, funny and filled with the spirit and compare this to a typical elders quorum lesson where half the people are checking out Facebook, and the other half are ready to gouge their eyes out because they don't get Internet reception while the teacher reads through the lesson he started to prepare during sacrament meeting.

Another advantage would be the freed up time the leaders would be able to now spend with their families. Most of the time intensive callings are filled by members with children at home, who would rather be with their families than attend another meeting. I know of no other church that puts as much emphasis on family as we do, yet require it's leaders to spend so much extra time away from them in their callings.

Finally, a paid clergy could be trained in counseling. A significant portion of a bishop's time is spent counseling members in any one of a number of areas. Someone who has been a contractor, or doctor, by trade is now expected to be counselor without any training. I think we can do better than this.

There's are many others, but I think you get my drift.

[ERayR]

So that we can be like the rest of Christendom?

[Alan]

Yes, methinks it is time.

[bluebell]

I think the benefits and blessings that members get when they are asked to stretch by serving in the church by speaking or teaching or leading (even if they don't always do them well) is worth not having a paid clergy.

If we can only become something better by doing those things which lead to that transformation, then I don't know how it's possible to take out the 'doing' and still be able to turn our weaknesses into strengths.

Also, i think that there is a unity which can only be developed through service, especially in a leadership position or as a teacher, which is one of the sweetest blessings and tenderest mercies of the Lord. I have never been able to love someone as thoroughly as I am able to when i am asked to lead them, or be responsible for their spiritual learning in some way. I personally think losing that opportunity would greatly harm the church membership.

Edited December 29, 2012 by bluebell

[Damien the Leper]

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. However, it would probably require specialized training through a hypothetical or created LDS seminary. But I don't see it happening.

Also, I see nothing wrong with the 100% full time ministry of other groups and the extensive and rigorous study and training the go through.

[Duncan]

Institute for me was anything but a wonderful time in my life and the CES fellas were full of themselves it was a miracle to see them walk into the room! I can see the purpose of having a paid clergy, although I don't know if the lows are worth the highs of it. I would support however a missionary system for people that could go on a mission for a longer time. I just see a whop of sisters that I don't know if marriage is in the works for them (some of don't flipping live here, sadly) but have like a LDS Convent thing, just teach ESL or a pros. mission or something, so they don't have to worry about men not dating them. I know one woman here who was born into our Church and I think she should have been born a Catholic and sent to a nunnery. She is just as close to a Nun like person as I have ever known but she got married to a complete bozo and she would be infinately happier if she just go on a mission for the rest of her life and ditch the man scene.

[Saints Alive]

Just one part of the op struck me. How would payed clergy improve sacrament talks? My understanding g is that members of the congregation have always been called on to give talks

[ERayR]

Just one part of the op struck me. How would payed clergy improve sacrament talks? My understanding g is that members of the congregation have always been called on to give talks

For those who think a paid clergy would improve Sacrament meeting you would be wrong. What improves sacrament meetings is for each individual to tune into the Holy Ghost and that my friends is a personal, individual effort and has nothing to do with a paid clergy.

[DBMormon]

For those who think a paid clergy would improve Sacrament meeting you would be wrong. What improves sacrament meetings is for each individual to tune into the Holy Ghost and that my friends is a personal, individual effort and has nothing to do with a paid clergy.

Better talks help. Too many read a wrote out plagarism of someone else and are unable to look up and speak. A comfortable speaker makes a world of difference. To say you can feel just as inspired by bad speakers as you can good ones is possible on occasion but when weighed as a whole..... it doesn't hold water

[The Nehor]

I think it would be an unmitigated disaster. At that point either people are called to leadership and sent to school or we give up on being called by God and allow our leaders to self-select by pursuing a religious education. Politics begins to form amongst those so educated seeking position (do we pay a stake president more then a bishop? How about an Area President? Who do you impress to advance?) When those who take the path of this education decide the gospel is false do they do the honorable thing and resign and make their education worthless or do they do what happens far too often in many other faiths and just go through the motions to keep their meal ticket?

Does one enter the ministry aspiring for an apostleship? Yuck. If God wants counselors and theologians he can call them. If not, not.

I am also opposed to the giving more time to the Bishop to speak at the expense of the members. We endure bad talks but we also endure bad talks helping the speaker move towards becoming a good speaker. I am told I am a good speaker. When I was younger I was a terrible one. Only being asked to speak and teach changed that.

Better talks help. Too many read a wrote out plagarism of someone else and are unable to look up and speak. A comfortable speaker makes a world of difference. To say you can feel just as inspired by bad speakers as you can good ones is possible on occasion but when weighed as a whole..... it doesn't hold water

During bad talks I enter an inner monologue and preach my own sermon. During life-story talks and travel reports I just thank God my life is not as dull as the speaker's must be to imagine their stories are interesting. It helps me to count my blessings.

[ERayR]

Better talks help. Too many read a wrote out plagarism of someone else and are unable to look up and speak. A comfortable speaker makes a world of difference. To say you can feel just as inspired by bad speakers as you can good ones is possible on occasion but when weighed as a whole..... it doesn't hold water

I believe it was President Eyring who gave a talk wherin he told how he complained to his father about boring sacrament meetings. He said his father told him he had never been to a boring sacrament meeting, He said that if the speaker became boring he communed with the Holy Ghost and preached himself a silent sermon and he just didn't have boring meetings.

Do you come to sacrament meeting to be entertained or to feel the spirit?

[rpn]

The church is about helping people grow and become what we came here to become. Paid clergy would not just cost money. It would undermine all of that.

Edited December 30, 2012 by rpn

[mfbukowski]

You're not getting this at all.

The church is for us to grow, and tithing funds are not to be for tickets to a perfect performance so we can sit back and watch.

The whole idea of having a paid clergy is just plain wrong-headed and misses the point totally.

[omni]

Having a paid ministry would still allow for service by the average member. I could see the bishop giving a talk each week, but also have a member giving one or two short talks each week for some diversity. Also we would still have most of the other callings, just eliminate the time consuming ones and have the bishop work out a schedule to teach ss or priesthood, relief society, etc.

Despite what we would probably like to admit having an interesting and engaging speaker/teacher can have an affect on congregants attendance (both physical and mental). Unfortunately were not all on the same spiritual level of Elder Eyring's father.

I still haven't seen anybody respond to the lack of family time or training as an all encompassing counselor.

[bluebell]

Despite what we would probably like to admit having an interesting and engaging speaker/teacher can have an affect on congregants attendance (both physical and mental). Unfortunately were not all on the same spiritual level of Elder Eyring's father.

I think it definitely can have an impact. I also know that some of the best talks/teachers that i've ever had would NEVER choose to give a talk or teach a lesson. Heavenly Father knew what talents they had though, even when they would never have taken on that challenge on their own.

I also know that i have been to churches with paid clergy where i didn't think the speaker was very good at all. Just because someone is trained and paid, doesn't mean they are fantastic at it. Anyone who's ever been to school and had a bad teacher (or a lot of them) knows that training and money don't guarantee someone has a talent doing something.

[Duncan]

Having a paid ministry would still allow for service by the average member. I could see the bishop giving a talk each week, but also have a member giving one or two short talks each week for some diversity. Also we would still have most of the other callings, just eliminate the time consuming ones and have the bishop work out a schedule to teach ss or priesthood, relief society, etc.

Despite what we would probably like to admit having an interesting and engaging speaker/teacher can have an affect on congregants attendance (both physical and mental). Unfortunately were not all on the same spiritual level of Elder Eyring's father.

I still haven't seen anybody respond to the lack of family time or training as an all encompassing counselor.

IMO wise bishops are in my mind more like spiritual coaches, they direct people to where they can get help, i.e. marital counselling, personal counselling, etc. To me the only counselling role Bishops should do is spiritual counselling0how do I repent, interviews for missions, etc.

[Damien the Leper]

Going to school to prepare for a life of full time ministry is a deep commitment. I know a pastor who has been a full time pastor of every church he has been a part of. Being a pastor or minister like him is 24/7/365...and this has been his position for almost 30 years. He got his education at ECU, University of Manitoba, Dallas Theological and Manhatton.

It takes special people to go into full and lifetime ministry.

[ERayR]

Unfortunately were not all on the same spiritual level of Elder Eyring's father.

And a paid clergy will not help you reach that level. The church is to give you the opportunity to grow not to keep you entertained and amused.

[Duncan]

Going to school to prepare for a life of full time ministry is a deep commitment. I know a pastor who has been a full time pastor of every church he has been a part of. Being a pastor or minister like him is 24/7/365...and this has been his position for almost 30 years. He got his education at ECU, University of Manitoba, Dallas Theological and Manhatton.

It takes special people to go into full and lifetime ministry.

The University of Manitoba is Stellar! I attended there

[Damien the Leper]

And a paid clergy will not help you reach that level. The church is to give you the opportunity to grow not to keep you entertained and amused.

Fortunately, this isn't the majority experience. I know of dozens of churches that engage in deep theology, epistemology and hermeneutics in their sermons and incorporates the relevant human experience. I prefer this methodology. I learn more and feel the Spirit more strongly.

[Damien the Leper]

The University of Manitoba is Stellar! I attended there

Stop tempting me with Canada! I'm having withdrawals already after spending the holiday in Toronto.

[halconero]

Stop tempting me with Canada! I'm having withdrawals already after spending the holiday in Toronto.

Wait...you were here over the holiday?!

[blackstrap]

Wait...you were here over the holiday?!

Did you not see the golden glow in the sky?

[mfbukowski]

Despite what we would probably like to admit having an interesting and engaging speaker/teacher can have an affect on congregants attendance (both physical and mental). Unfortunately were not all on the same spiritual level of Elder Eyring's father.

You are probably right about attendance, there are churches in my area that have attendance in the thousands, but they do not teach exaltation. Their pastors are charismatic men that are expert preachers and expert at getting donations.

But they do not teach the humble gospel of Christ as I know it.

And we are all meant to GROW into the stature of Elder Eyring's father and indeed Elder Eyring himself who were NOT PAID CLERGY.

How do you think they got there? By being entertained or by doing?

I still haven't seen anybody respond to the lack of family time or training as an all encompassing counselor.

I don't understand this sentence.

As a former bishop, I have learned that counseling is not as important as teaching doctrine as a means to counseling and indeed that is what bishops are counseled to do.

When you teach the doctrine of eternal marriage and what it means to be Christlike in marriage, you are making direct intervention in a marriage. You are showing the couple how Christ would handle the issues before them- counseling in the sense of what a professional psychologist would do seldom enters into it. And indeed if professional help is necessary, it is available through LDS social services, free of charge if necessary.

Nothing is lost by having Bishops who are not professional psychological counselors- professionals are just a phone call away, and they work directly with the Bishops and confer on the direction the counseling should take, on a regular basis.

Nothing at all is lost and much is gained by having BOTH a spiritual teacher and a professional when necessary.

[mfbukowski]

Stop tempting me with Canada! I'm having withdrawals already after spending the holiday in Toronto.

Oh come on! Think of all the energy wasted by saying "Heh?" at the end of every sentence!