Is It Time Or The Church To Have A Paid Ministry?

[ERayR]

I have known one though of course I could not see his heart. Stupid lack of x-ray vision and silly hippocratic oath prevent it.

I am sure that in the corps of seminary and institute instructors there are some but in 70 years I have not, to my knowledge, encountered one of them. MLM on the other hand is everywhere and seems to ooze out of the wood work.

[Calm]

As a counterpoint: Perhaps the educational system should realize that if you cannot teach students concepts in time amounting to an adult's full-time job then tacking 2-3 hours of work at home afterwards is unlikely to help.

The 2 to 3 hours oh homework is to make up for time lost through moving from class to class and teacher to teacher, required but unnecessary social 'development' that the kids generally ignore anyway, excessive testing because resources are handed out based on certain measures which therefore have to be tested for plus teachers end up being forced to teach test taking skills of limited use rather than actual knowledge, expression of creative ability and problem solving.

I read a study once that demonstrated that home schooling could accomplish in two or three hours what all day required for public school due to the less distractive and activity cluttered environment. Perhaps the 2 to 3 hous of homework is where the real learning is taking place.

[Calm]

Actually it is to preach to get gain and glory rather then seeking to serve God and his kingdom and establish Zion. There is a fair amount of this in the church. Last time someone bore testimony to me of their MLM scheme for example.

What actual training is required of a paid CES employee? The only one I ever knew well enough was the 'home study' teacher that would come by once a week...and he had a huge obstacle in a non responsive student (due to her social anxiety) to overcome...never once complained about it or seemed frustrated even after a lesson that pretty much consisted of me and him talking. He even taught her "House of the Rising Sun" on the guitar...that's going the extra mile. Having said that, if I had allowed him to stick to the lesson plan I think the experience would have been rather boring. And I don't have a clue how it would be interesting unless one was adding a lot of personal stuff.

All of my son's volunteer teachers were fantastic according to him and all the teachers for early morning seminary seem very devoted these days. I only remember one teacher out of four I thought was worth getting up for, one of the problems with being too well versed inthe scriptures at that age. I ended up switching to independent study the last year and thought the text was a total waste of time, but at least I could sleep in (which was essential for me to function).

I went to Byu. You would think all the institute teachers there would be top of the line. The only institute teacher I liked was Victor Ludlow, I took all the classes I could from him. He even had the nerve to use an alternate text for Isaiah. Some of the other classes were my version of he-ll.

Edited January 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[Hayds]

I kinda like the aspect of a non paid clergy. However, some Bishops are poor at dealing with and handling personal and emotional issues of their members. Often times I see Bishops acting in the role of a therapist or marriage counselor and giving poor advice. Members sometimes follow this poor advice and end up worse off. I would love to see more training of the Bishops in this category.

If anything, I would also love to see the church downplay the term "inspired" when it comes to Bishops. It gives some members the wrong impression that everything the Bishop or SP says or does must be based on some kind of revelation the Bishop receives which is bogus.

[mfbukowski]

What actual training is required of a paid CES employee? The only one I ever knew well enough was the 'home study' teacher that would come by once a week...and he had a huge obstacle in a non responsive student (due to her social anxiety) to overcome...never once complained about it or seemed frustrated even after a lesson that pretty much consisted of me and him talking. He even taught her "House of the Rising Sun" on the guitar...that's going the extra mile. Having said that, if I had allowed him to stick to the lesson plan I think the experience would have been rather boring. And I don't have a clue how it would be interesting unless one was adding a lot of personal stuff.

All of my son's volunteer teachers were fantastic according to him and all the teachers for early morning seminary seem very devoted these days. I only remember one teacher out of four I thought was worth getting up for, one of the problems with being too well versed inthe scriptures at that age. I ended up switching to independent study the last year and thought the text was a total waste of time, but at least I could sleep in (which was essential for me to function).

I went to Byu. You would think all the institute teachers there would be top of the line. The only institute teacher I liked was Victor Ludlow, I took all the classes I could from him. He even had the nerve to use an alternate text for Isaiah. Some of the other classes were my version of he-ll.

Honestly I am really grateful I did not grow up in the church. I wouldn't be a member now, I am sure. I would have rebelled and never come back.

[The Nehor]

The 2 to 3 hours oh homework is to make up for time lost through moving from class to class and teacher to teacher, required but unnecessary social 'development' that the kids generally ignore anyway, excessive testing because resources are handed out based on certain measures which therefore have to be tested for plus teachers end up being forced to teach test taking skills of limited use rather than actual knowledge, expression of creative ability and problem solving.

I read a study once that demonstrated that home schooling could accomplish in two or three hours what all day required for public school due to the less distractive and activity cluttered environment. Perhaps the 2 to 3 hous of homework is where the real learning is taking place.

He problem I have seen is that most home school parents are incompetent at teaching.

I learned too many test taking skills and not the ones they wanted to teach. I got to the point where through High School and College I could get at least a B on any multiple choice test even if I had not touched the material or gone to a lecture. I became an expert at writing essays about things I had never read. The conclusion I reached was that knowledge was cheaply counterfeited. Luckily my Mission kicked that out of me or I may have ended up an insufferable git. Well, maybe more of an insufferable git.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I read a study once that demonstrated that home schooling could accomplish in two or three hours what all day required for public school due to the less distractive and activity cluttered environment.

I've seen this firsthand when I was visiting one of my mates and his family in California a couple of years ago. Because of their place of residence, they were required to follow a state-mandated curriculum which was supposed to match what was happening inside the schools. The mum handily managed to get through this 'daylong' curriculum each day during two hours in the morning. Then she and the kids spent the afternoons at museums, performing their own learning experiments, etc.

By the way, I'm still opposed to homework. We might as well all keep our kids home and teach them what they need to know during those 2-3 hours if that's where the real learning is taking place.

[Hamba Tuhan]

If anything, I would also love to see the church downplay the term "inspired" when it comes to Bishops. It gives some members the wrong impression that everything the Bishop or SP says or does must be based on some kind of revelation the Bishop receives which is bogus.

Maybe instead we should just do a better job teaching the members what it means for a person to be inspired? I've worked closely with my current bishop for seven years, first as YM president and now as one of his counsellors. He's definitely inspired and frequently receives revelation. To assume that everything he might do/say is the direct outcome of revelation would just be silly.

[Saints Alive]

Well, maybe more of an insufferable git.

Pfft!!! As if that we're possible

[Calm]

He problem I have seen is that most home school parents are incompetent at teaching.

And it is not just competency that matters, it also involves family dynamics. We have always treated learning as play time in our home because that is what it is for me...so my kids didn't buy shifting to a more discipline style and in the boy's case resisted and in the girl's case had anxiety attacks. I was well thought of as a tutor for other people's kids though and a decent primary and SS teacher. Didn't work too well with my own in an organised fashion though.

[Hayds]

Maybe instead we should just do a better job teaching the members what it means for a person to be inspired? I've worked closely with my current bishop for seven years, first as YM president and now as one of his counsellors. He's definitely inspired and frequently receives revelation. To assume that everything he might do/say is the direct outcome of revelation would just be silly.

I agree. What about my neighbors who just got a divorce after a sham marriage that lasted 20 years because the husband was dealing was dealing with SSA and was struggling as a young man early in the marriage? He confessed his SSA to his wife and Bishop. The Bishop told them to have have kids and that would "straighten" him out. Wrong. It caused more problems then it solved. What about my childhood Bishop telling my Mom to divorce my Dad because he went inactive? I am glad she ignored his advice.

You are right not to assume that everything a Bishop says is the direct outcome of revelation, but the church usually emphasizes the opposite. The bottom line is that Bishops make stupid "uninspired" judgement calls all the time, but we as LDS are not programmed to disagree or challenge our leaders. The church constantly emphasizes obedience to priesthood leaders. The mantra is you will always be blessed even if they are wrong.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Hayds

[Hamba Tuhan]

The Bishop told them to have have kids and that would "straighten" him out. Wrong.

It sounds like we also need to do a better job of teaching some members what Church policies are. From the handbook: 'The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord'.

What about my childhood Bishop telling my Mom to divorce my Dad because he went inactive? I am glad she ignored his advice.

As she should have since, once again, this counsel was contrary to Church policy. From the handbook again: 'No priesthood officer is to counsel a person whom to marry. Nor should he counsel a person to divorce his or her spouse. Those decisions must originate and remain with the individual'.

You are right not to assume that everything a Bishop says is the direct outcome of revelation, but the church usually emphasizes the opposite.

Could you provide a Church statement which emphasises 'that everything a Bishop says is the direct outcome of revelation'? I know that this idea certainly crops up on occasion, but I can't recall an instance in my experience where the Church has emphasised or encouraged it.

We as LDS are not programmed to disagree or challenge our leaders.

You clearly have never been in a ward council meeting in my ward!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm curious if those who keep asking this question have ever attended institute or seminary where the instructor is a CES employee. In my experience I loved most if not all of my teachers. They made it interesting, they knew their stuff, they knew how to bring the spirit to a lesson, heck even my EFY speakers were great at this. Just like most any profession, they are going to be better than an amateur. I'm speaking in generalities of course, there are many fine lay members who can give talks/lessons and some poor CES employees, but on the whole I think the quality would drastically improve.

For those who bring up the notion of priestcraft...are CES employees guilty of this?

I get paid for public speaking...never attended a class on how to teach. It is a gift for most, being paid to do it does not make you better.

[Cobalt-70]

I didn't want to hijack Tacenda's thread on paid clergy, so I thought I would start my own. Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did.

The question should be whether it is time for the church to have a paid ministry again. Until the early 20th century, bishops and ward clerks both took a cut of collected tithing as compensation for their time. Nobody really complained about that practice, and there didn't seem to be many problems. I don't think restoring that policy would be a big deal, considering how much time a bishop spends on his calling. But I don't think paying bishops again would likely have any effect on the quality of sacraments without additional training of bishops.

(I don't think ward clerks need to be paid anymore, given that their workload is significantly reduced by computerization.)

Also, the OP question ignores the fact, as has been pointed out already on this thread, that the general authority level we still do have a paid clergy, and always have had a paid clergy since the time of Joseph Smith.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Cobalt-70

[Avatar4321]

What actual training is required of a paid CES employee? The only one I ever knew well enough was the 'home study' teacher that would come by once a week...and he had a huge obstacle in a non responsive student (due to her social anxiety) to overcome...never once complained about it or seemed frustrated even after a lesson that pretty much consisted of me and him talking. He even taught her "House of the Rising Sun" on the guitar...that's going the extra mile. Having said that, if I had allowed him to stick to the lesson plan I think the experience would have been rather boring. And I don't have a clue how it would be interesting unless one was adding a lot of personal stuff.

All of my son's volunteer teachers were fantastic according to him and all the teachers for early morning seminary seem very devoted these days. I only remember one teacher out of four I thought was worth getting up for, one of the problems with being too well versed inthe scriptures at that age. I ended up switching to independent study the last year and thought the text was a total waste of time, but at least I could sleep in (which was essential for me to function).

I went to Byu. You would think all the institute teachers there would be top of the line. The only institute teacher I liked was Victor Ludlow, I took all the classes I could from him. He even had the nerve to use an alternate text for Isaiah. Some of the other classes were my version of he-ll.

Since when have they had institute teachers at BYU? I thought they didn't do institute at BYU specifically because the students are required to take actual religion classes.

[Antoni]

Just to clarify, I think there is a huge difference between a person who has a calling and is given an allowance/expenses to fufil that calling, compared to someone who is being paid a salary for a career.

The added bonus that most GA's are of retirement age and have had successful careers which means they are not a financial burden is another good thing as far as I'm concerned. Likewise if they write books and people like/buy them, then that is good from a financial point of view for church too, as they're self supporting.

[mfbukowski]

He problem I have seen is that most home school parents are incompetent at teaching.

I learned too many test taking skills and not the ones they wanted to teach. I got to the point where through High School and College I could get at least a B on any multiple choice test even if I had not touched the material or gone to a lecture. I became an expert at writing essays about things I had never read. The conclusion I reached was that knowledge was cheaply counterfeited. Luckily my Mission kicked that out of me or I may have ended up an insufferable git. Well, maybe more of an insufferable git.

I'd give you a point but I didn't know if that would imply that you were an insufferable git or not. One has to make tough decisions in life

By the way I agree with it all.

Or something. I actually sort of did my reading. I would read one page out of 5 and get the gist of what was being said and then write a paper. It always worked.

[lanematt22]

The church does pay thousands of employees already. I think there is a misconception in the church that NO ONE gets paid. With that said however, I don't agree with the concept of adding paid clergy to the ward level. I know many people that have investigated or joined our church because of the idea that everyone there is volunteering and interested in the same cause. These people were completely turned off by churches that had a ministry that had some kind of financial motivation to build the church. Where does the line stop? Do you give a commission to the bishop for the number of people in sacrament? How much paid time off do they get? Does the church provide health benefits? Seems messy to me and disruptive to what makes our church attractive...commitment to something other than money.

I do agree that some wards could use some help and having some additional attention paid to the leaders in those wards is important. I don't think paying people at the ward level will solve any issues however.

I wouldn't mind a little "discount" on my tithing however

[ERayR]

I'd give you a point but I didn't know if that would imply that you were an insufferable git or not. One has to make tough decisions in life

By the way I agree with it all.

Or something. I actually sort of did my reading. I would read one page out of 5 and get the gist of what was being said and then write a paper. It always worked.

It seems that all colleges are the same.

[Nathair/|\]

Did you not see the golden glow in the sky?

I was going to post a clip from Little Nicky, but it has a vulgar word in it, so it's not appropriate for here.

[Cobalt-70]

Just to clarify, I think there is a huge difference between a person who has a calling and is given an allowance/expenses to fufil that calling, compared to someone who is being paid a salary for a career.

The added bonus that most GA's are of retirement age and have had successful careers which means they are not a financial burden is another good thing as far as I'm concerned. Likewise if they write books and people like/buy them, then that is good from a financial point of view for church too, as they're self supporting.

I don't think there is any data to support the idea that most GAs are turning down their salaries and benefits, which are rather generous from what I understand, as I think they should be. If you are working full time for the church, so that you can't work a paying job on the side, then you ought to be paid. Anything less probably isn't unrighteous dominion (because you supposedly can, in theory, turn down a full-time church calling without going to hell), but you might at least call it uncomfortable dominion.

That's why I think that the church should pay for the missions of all full-time missionaries. Our scriptures tell us that missionaries are to go "without purse or scrip," which means that they are to be supported by the church, not by their own funds. In Joseph Smith's day, missionaries used to pass around a hat for donations from the people to whom they taught, and received room and board free from church members and investigators. Why can't the church support its missionaries, who are performing a core mission of the church, from general tithing funds?

Edited January 5, 2013 by Cobalt-70

[Calm]

Since when have they had institute teachers at BYU? I thought they didn't do institute at BYU specifically because the students are required to take actual religion classes.

Same thing, they use the identical manuals.

[Calm]

I do agree that some wards could use some help and having some additional attention paid to the leaders in those wards is important. I don't think paying people at the ward level will solve any issues however.

I wouldn't mind a little "discount" on my tithing however

I was thinking a babysitting allowance for a date night every other week for those gone from home a lot or for a movie night with the kids on occasion.

[bluebell]

That's why I think that the church should pay for the missions of all full-time missionaries. Our scriptures tell us that missionaries are to go "without purse or scrip," which means that they are to be supported by the church, not by their own funds. In Joseph Smith's day, missionaries used to pass around a hat for donations from the people to whom they taught, and received room and board free from church members and investigators. Why can't the church support its missionaries, who are performing a core mission of the church, from general tithing funds?

Where do the scriptures say that going without purse or script meant the church organization was the pay for the missionaries? That seems to be an interpretation without support.

Also, missionaries ARE supported by donations from members: either it is a donation from the missionaries parents, one from the missionary themseles, from a member/members of their ward, or from donations of members in other wards. No missionary is ever stopped from going on a mission because they don't have the money. You can bet that in JS's day, if a missionary had the means to support themselves, they would not have been asking other members to do so.

And, in the U.S. anyway, missionaries do live in members' houses free of charge whenever that is possible.

[EllenMaksoud]

I didn't want to hijack Tacenda's thread on paid clergy, so I thought I would start my own. Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did.

I can see many advantages to this, first off I think the quality of talks and lessons would improve dramatically. I know members generally try their best when giving a talk or lesson, but there's a huge difference between someone who is trained, and experienced compared to someone who is giving a talk for the first or second time and would rather be any place but there.

If you were able to attend, think back to your time in institute, where the lessons were interesting, funny and filled with the spirit and compare this to a typical elders quorum lesson where half the people are checking out Facebook, and the other half are ready to gouge their eyes out because they don't get Internet reception while the teacher reads through the lesson he started to prepare during sacrament meeting.

Another advantage would be the freed up time the leaders would be able to now spend with their families. Most of the time intensive callings are filled by members with children at home, who would rather be with their families than attend another meeting. I know of no other church that puts as much emphasis on family as we do, yet require it's leaders to spend so much extra time away from them in their callings.

Finally, a paid clergy could be trained in counseling. A significant portion of a bishop's time is spent counseling members in any one of a number of areas. Someone who has been a contractor, or doctor, by trade is now expected to be counselor without any training. I think we can do better than this.

There's are many others, but I think you get my drift.

Not to seem snarky, but I have very strong feelings about this, so I will try not to breathe fire.

I spent over 30 years as an evangelical (Baptist, AG, Foursquare and others). I moved around because I wanted someone to act like Jesus Christ told us to. They were all paid pastorate. I spent 7 years as Muslim, but what I learned is for another conversation.

So, with our so called "lowly and inexpert Bishops", I have seen such miraculous things happen that sometimes I just sit and think about the majesty of Heavenly Father. I've been the educated and degreed counselor route and for me, I choose Heavenly Father over those dorks any time. Just sayin.