Is It Time Or The Church To Have A Paid Ministry?

[pogi]

My nephew is serving there now! One of my favorite actors is Michael J. Fox. Not necessarily for his acting but for his courage in living with Parkinson's disease. I read his books too. Canadians are awesome. There's Anne Murray, Dan Akroyd to name a few. Very distinct personalities, like you Duncan.

Don't forget Fay Wray from Cardston, Alberta!

I used to go to church in Cardston when I was working in Glacier National Park after graduating high school, and noticed the fountain honoring their claim to fame, Fay Wray.

[Tacenda]

thank you for your kind words! where is he serving?

Edmonton Canada Mission

[Duncan]

Edmonton Canada Mission

great place! hope he is enjoying it!

[sdc999]

I have felt that way on occassion, but when i get that way i try to remember one of my favorite people in the world who used to always remind me that though people in the church are always talking about the importance of mercy and justice, what most people really want is 'mercy for themselves, and justice for everyone else'.

We are sometimes very quick to have no mercy whatsoever for other people's weaknesses (especially if they happen to be one of our strengths) but put us in a position where one of our weaknesses is showcased to the world, and we suddenly hope to high heaven that people will be merciful in their dealings and opinions of our efforts (or lack thereof) and sometimes we even get a bit self-righteous if they aren't.

An ill prepared speaker will have his or her own reward. We shouldn't let that determine what kind of a listener we are willing to be though, in my opinion.

I respect that you would stick around to listen but I still feel that our world has become complacent with laziness and lack of effort. I rarely see accountability anymore. My wife is a teacher, and now, the kid's excuses for not being prepared are backed up by parent's excuses as to why their children are not prepared for a test or have their homework done and 'the teacher should understand." This isn't an LDS thing or a Methodist or even a Baptist thing. It's becoming an American cultural thing.

I own several companies and I can accept a weakness where I do not tolerate laziness. Weaknesses can be overcome with training and assistance to make him/her stronger.

I don't think you can tell me, if you are honest, that a person who gives a talk preceded by their announcement that they did not prepare or procrastinated to the point of being ill-prepared, that you sit there and dote on the poor talk with 'mercy'. I am more than willing to give someone a chance who has a pure heart and gives an honest effort that falls short.

Again, I will also add, that if the bishopric is aware that they have a weak speaker, an effort should be made to pair them with a strong speaker. And to conclude, if someone does announce of their lack of effort, they should be reminded, scolded, whatever, that they accepted the responsibility where they also had the choice to decline.

[blackstrap]

Why a talk might be poorly done:

1. Last minute preparation

2. procrastination because of conflicting emotions

3. poor reading skills

4. poor research skills

5. extreme nervousness

6. distractions from health or family problems prior

7. little or no experience in public speaking

8. malicious intent to bother members

9.etc.

Not many of these reasons are indictable /judgeable offenses. Most could use our sympathy if not our empathy.

[sdc999]

Why a talk might be poorly done:

1. Last minute preparation

2. procrastination because of conflicting emotions

3. poor reading skills

4. poor research skills

5. extreme nervousness

6. distractions from health or family problems prior

7. little or no experience in public speaking

8. malicious intent to bother members

9.etc.

Not many of these reasons are indictable /judgeable offenses. Most could use our sympathy if not our empathy.

1,2,9?? are judgeable IMHO.

But I think you have maybe made a great point about 3-8 and what a great opportunity for the bishopric member who 'asked' to assist the person whom was asked. Since another topic talked about a non paid ministry and that some positions were more managerial, I would conclude that it is a sub-role of the bishopric. Managing the resources, and in this case, the talk giver. Make sure this person has the tools to be successful. Follow up throughout the week. Give assistance/training where needed. Why would the bishopric, manager, want to send someone out to do poorly?

[blackstrap]

Many bishops are like the proverbial duck,serenely composed and moving with seemingly effortless grace above the surface,whereas below the surface they are frantically paddling with all their might. For a bishop to do indepth interviews with all members to ascertain their abilities to give talks may require more of them than is reasonable. However, after the first talk is given by member X ,much has been clarified.

[Duncan]

1,2,9?? are judgeable IMHO.

But I think you have maybe made a great point about 3-8 and what a great opportunity for the bishopric member who 'asked' to assist the person whom was asked. Since another topic talked about a non paid ministry and that some positions were more managerial, I would conclude that it is a sub-role of the bishopric. Managing the resources, and in this case, the talk giver. Make sure this person has the tools to be successful. Follow up throughout the week. Give assistance/training where needed. Why would the bishopric, manager, want to send someone out to do poorly?

5 is a solid reason! I used to puke my lilly livered guts out ten minutes before giving a talk and would be white a sheet sitting up there and then when i was at the pulpit be fine as pine in a forest! no problems! I don't get that way anymore thankfully!

Edited December 31, 2012 by Duncan

[Hamba Tuhan]

I would conclude that it is a sub-role of the bishopric. Managing the resources, and in this case, the talk giver. Make sure this person has the tools to be successful. Follow up throughout the week. Give assistance/training where needed. Why would the bishopric, manager, want to send someone out to do poorly?

This post just reminded me of our training earlier this year with our area presidency, so I've grabbed my hand-written notes to quote in all their imperfections:

'We need to make sacrament meeting more meaningful for members --

• teach faith in Christ and role of the sacrament
  
• teach the gospel (both before and during)
  
• teach members to prepare
  
• work to increase spirituality of meeting
  
• focus on sacrament
  
• talks and prayers should be inspired
  
• wise use of music to invite Spirit & unite members
  
• not enough to speak of truth; people need to speak by the Spirit
  
• what we assign is important; we need to spend time with speakers, teaching them what we want them to accomplish
  
• assure Aaronic Priesthood understand their vital role in increasing spirituality of sacrament meeting
  
• thank them publicly & privately'
  

As the counsellor responsible for sacrament meetings in my ward, I'm trying my best to implement these recommendations.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

My sacrament meeting ran the gamut from having two very confident 12 yr. old young women giving talks like they'd been doing it all their lives to an adult woman who struggled like a 12 yr. old might and said up front she had a fear of public speaking and when she sat down, she sobbed. To her husband who spoke so eloquently I swear he was reciting Shakespeare. And all 4 of their talks were inspiring in their own way. I'd get tired if every week was perfect and well rehearsed.

And how remarkable that not only are all considered appropriate speakers, but all are willing to accept to serve the Lord and others in such ways.

[bluebell]

I respect that you would stick around to listen but I still feel that our world has become complacent with laziness and lack of effort. I rarely see accountability anymore. My wife is a teacher, and now, the kid's excuses for not being prepared are backed up by parent's excuses as to why their children are not prepared for a test or have their homework done and 'the teacher should understand." This isn't an LDS thing or a Methodist or even a Baptist thing. It's becoming an American cultural thing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's just that walking out on such a speaker doesn't impact the speaker in the least. They won't even know why you are leaving, if they even notice, and neither will anyone else.

It seems like it would be a futile gesture who's only impact is on you and your relationship with the speaker.

I don't think you can tell me, if you are honest, that a person who gives a talk preceded by their announcement that they did not prepare or procrastinated to the point of being ill-prepared, that you sit there and dote on the poor talk with 'mercy'. I am more than willing to give someone a chance who has a pure heart and gives an honest effort that falls short.

I don't always no. I'm certainly not perfect and i can be as snarky and judgmental as the next person when someone does something that i don't think is right. I do try though, because i sincerely believe that that's how Christ would want me to handle the situation.

Again, I will also add, that if the bishopric is aware that they have a weak speaker, an effort should be made to pair them with a strong speaker. And to conclude, if someone does announce of their lack of effort, they should be reminded, scolded, whatever, that they accepted the responsibility where they also had the choice to decline.

Sometimes such a scolding might be in order, but few of us are as awesome as we think we are and actually know when such is appropriate.

We had a talk by a sister in the ward yesterday where she admitted that she had just prepared it the night before. She didn't elaborate but i knew that it was because she has 4 kids who all had the stomach flu the entire week, also had family in town for the holidays, and had to play music for a baptism, which included her daughter who had just turned 8. Her husband is the bishop and had been busy with bishop duties and not able to help at home as much as he otherwise would have been.

Mercy costs us nothing and we gain so much when we attempt to give it. Justice on the other hand, can come back to bite us in the rear-end, since we know that God will give it right back to us when we misuse it.

I'd rather err on the side of mercy, when i can control my natural man enough to do so.

[Tacenda]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's just that walking out on such a speaker doesn't impact the speaker in the least. They won't even know why you are leaving, if they even notice, and neither will anyone else.

It seems like it would be a futile gesture who's only impact is on you and your relationship with the speaker.

I don't always no. I'm certainly not perfect and i can be as snarky and judgmental as the next person when someone does something that i don't think is right. I do try though, because i sincerely believe that that's how Christ would want me to handle the situation.

Sometimes such a scolding might be in order, but few of us are as awesome as we think we are and actually know when such is appropriate.

We had a talk by a sister in the ward yesterday where she admitted that she had just prepared it the night before. She didn't elaborate but i knew that it was because she has 4 kids who all had the stomach flu the entire week, also had family in town for the holidays, and had to play music for a baptism, which included her daughter who had just turned 8. Her husband is the bishop and had been busy with bishop duties and not able to help at home as much as he otherwise would have been.

Mercy costs us nothing and we gain so much when we attempt to give it. Justice on the other hand, can come back to bite us in the rear-end, since we know that God will give it right back to us when we misuse it.

I'd rather err on the side of mercy, when i can control my natural man enough to do so.

The only time I felt frustrated to the point of leaving is when a visitor to our ward got up during our F & T Meeting and took the whole time preaching to us, but maybe I needed it. But it felt very shallow.

[bluebell]

The only time I felt frustrated to the point of leaving is when a visitor to our ward got up during our F & T Meeting and took the whole time preaching to us, but maybe I needed it. But it felt very shallow.

I never like that either. It just seems a bit egotistical to think that it's o.k. to preach a 20 minute sermon in F&T. Hopefully most who do it don't realize how much time they are taking or what it sounds like on our end.

[Freedom]

I don't come to church to be enlightened by the sacrament talks, I go to receive the sacrament and participate in perfecting the saints. We do this by taking turns to talk and share our testimonies This is why able bodied adult and youth is given the opportunity to talk in the service. If we don't like their testimony or their method of sharing their understanding the gospel then we are the ones with the problem,.

[Duncan]

I don't come to church to be enlightened by the sacrament talks, I go to receive the sacrament and participate in perfecting the saints. We do this by taking turns to talk and share our testimonies This is why able bodied adult and youth is given the opportunity to talk in the service. If we don't like their testimony or their method of sharing their understanding the gospel then we are the ones with the problem,.

I can't recall the last time I had a spiritual experience at Church but I go to Church because I have had spiritual experiences. I teach Gospel Essentiels class and those have gone generally well and people, I hope! and I enjoy the conversations I have with people !

[Tacenda]

I can't recall the last time I had a spiritual experience at Church but I go to Church because I have had spiritual experiences. I teach Gospel Essentiels class and those have gone generally well and people, I hope! and I enjoy the conversations I have with people !

This is a dumb question more than likely but what is the class going to study this coming year? I attended the Gospel Essentials class once this past year but felt it was a repeat of what I learned in RS the year before. So didn't attend it anymore. And it was a small class of about 7 or 8 people and I felt very self conscience during the high point of my faith crisis. I probably should have given it a chance.

[ERayR]

I don't come to church to be enlightened by the sacrament talks, I go to receive the sacrament and participate in perfecting the saints. We do this by taking turns to talk and share our testimonies This is why able bodied adult and youth is given the opportunity to talk in the service. If we don't like their testimony or their method of sharing their understanding the gospel then we are the ones with the problem,.

My Bishop was even kind enough to provide a stool for me to use as my back won't let me stand at the pulpit for the duration of a talk.

[Duncan]

This is a dumb question more than likely but what is the class going to study this coming year? I attended the Gospel Essentials class once this past year but felt it was a repeat of what I learned in RS the year before. So didn't attend it anymore. And it was a small class of about 7 or 8 people and I felt very self conscience during the high point of my faith crisis. I probably should have given it a chance.

it's the Gospel Principles book

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

in order to combat boredom in our class myself and my new vice ward mission leader teach every other weekend and we add lessons, like stuff about church culture, what to expect, not expect etc.

[ERayR]

I can't recall the last time I had a spiritual experience at Church but I go to Church because I have had spiritual experiences. I teach Gospel Essentiels class and those have gone generally well and people, I hope! and I enjoy the conversations I have with people !

I tend to have those spiritual experiences when I prepare myself to receive them. The fellowship of a gospel discussion in a class is in itself a rewarding experience.

[Duncan]

I tend to have those spiritual experiences when I prepare myself to receive them. The fellowship of a gospel discussion in a class is in itself a rewarding experience.

I am uplifted by Church but I can't recall when I received revelation in Church or something along those lines

[Tacenda]

it's the Gospel Principles book

http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng

in order to combat boredom in our class myself and my new vice ward mission leader teach every other weekend and we add lessons, like stuff about church culture, what to expect, not expect etc.

Vice? Maybe that was a typo... You would be a very fun teacher!!

[mfbukowski]

I'll admit, much of my desire is selfish for wanting consistently interesting (note, I never said entertaining) and thought provoking church meetings. This however would not create a contest of bishops competing for congregants seeing who could out do who as some have suggested. We would still have our assigned wards and bishops would be paid at a standard rate just as CES employees are.

I really feel for the bishopric/stake presidency, with the amount of time they spend away from their families, not to mention the added responsibility that is suddenly thrust upon, and I might add that they never asked for. I mean does anybody here really want to be bishop, do you know anyone who does? I know it's the system we have, but it seems like we can do better.

As a former bishop, let me tell you that you couldn't possibly pay me enough to take on that job again just for money. You would have to be crazy. Who wants a job where you get calls at 2 am to talk to some kid who is scared of something, or who just did something he shouldn't have, or whenever someone has the gall to die leaving a bereft family without any consideration for better timing?

No thanks! As a job, let me tell you it is no fun!

Who wants to deal with other people's personal money problems and people who need a food handout just to get by? Who wants to listen to someone confessing all the bad things they did in their lives now seeking forgiveness from the Lord, while you are sitting there wondering if indeed the Lord could possibly forgive all they had done? (He can... but you wonder sometimes!)

Who wants to clean toilets because there is no one else to do it, or have people stop speaking to you because you had to correct a child who was beating up on another kid?

Who wants to help people who live in squalid conditions with too many pets because they need to change their lives?

It was of course the most rewarding 5 years of my life- but for money? Fergetaboutit!

[Duncan]

Vice? Maybe that was a typo... You would be a very fun teacher!!

hahaha! Thank you!! I don't like the term Assistant or Co-whatever so I much prefer 'Vice-Ward Mission Leader' as in Vice-President!

[pmccombs1]

Let me just start, by saying I don't expect the church to ever start a paid clergy, but I would be very supportive if they did.

So would I. Good commentary.

[volgadon]

So would I. Good commentary.

To be frank, I find this attitude more than a little baffling considering your constant objections to malls.