To Help Future Proper Use Of Church Funds...

[JCNowandForever]

The Mall was a good investment and it provided needed work for hundreds and hundreds of people. Also, since church headquarters is nearby it does help if that area is working well. What the church did with the Mall is to create employment at a time when jobs were scarce or in short supply. Who can argue with that? Certainly not a parent whose son or daughter is working their way through school and has a job at the Mall.

If it's an investment then we are the investors, coz we put up the money. As investors, (in a usual sense of that word), they usually request on reports that shows the status of their investments. I haven't seen one to date. So this is not a good argument, though it has good intentions I can admit. But the question remains, why not the church invest in your backyard (assuming you're not in SLC), to help your neighborhood revitalized and employ your unemployed neighbors. Since the church has now entered into this new type activity.. The church is not an investment vehicle. It should never be, unless SEC gives it a license.

[JCNowandForever]

You have no authority in this matter.

And you do? pffff.

That is incorrect. Through rebellion, people who do not pay tithing disqualify themselves for the Celestial Kingdom.

Right... tell that to the unemployed who just died recently.

Maybe.. maybe not.... but since it was not labeled for strawman and ad-hominem purposes, this is irrelevant.

It is strawman and ad-hominem!

[JCNowandForever]

The collective is made up of a collective group of people and not a series of individuals who demand this and demand that for their own belief systems.

There is nothing being demanded here other than the proper use of funds. And conditional donations, restricting it to a particular purpose, may be a way to move the Church in that direction in providing transparency and more accountability. If "Transparency" is a bad Anti-M word then I don't know what it is.

[CASteinman]

And you do? pffff.

I am not claiming any such authority.

Right... tell that to the unemployed who just died recently.

Why would I do that? There is no restriction or ban on being unemployed or dying.

It is strawman and ad-hominem!

Declaring it so does not make it so.

[JCNowandForever]

Here's another reasonable suggestion. Put all your 10% on a specific item on that contribution slip other than Tithing. For example, put all the 10% on Fast Offering. This so you know it all went to the poor and needy! And you will never have to worry that it went to another investment strip mall in Provo, UT next to BYU just because BYU is known all over the world. In your heart, you have paid tithing, Period. and the Lord sees that.

[why me]

. The Bishop will only ask if the contribution is a full tithe. Donating 10% of my income for any blank purpose will not help future proper use of church funds. Thus the suggestions...

And what is your definition of proper use of church funds? I haven't seen any improper use of church funds? Was anything done illegally? That would be improper. We all have are pet peeves. Let me put it this way: If I don't agree that the poor people of Honduras should have toothbrushes should I be able to avoid my tithes going to Honduras? if the church is using funds for toothbrushes for Honduras? Anarchy within the tithe system is not a good thing.

[why me]

If it's an investment then we are the investors, coz we put up the money. As investors, (in a usual sense of that word), they usually request on reports that shows the status of their investments. I haven't seen one to date. So this is not a good argument, though it has good intentions I can admit. But the question remains, why not the church invest in your backyard (assuming you're not in SLC), to help your neighborhood revitalized and employ your unemployed neighbors. Since the church has now entered into this new type activity.. The church is not an investment vehicle. It should never be, unless SEC gives it a license.

It is my understanding that tithes were not used for the Mall. But the church has many investments. And I am sure that all the investors in the Mall see some sort of paper to show just how the investments are doing. Since tithes are not used for that investments, what is my say in it?

[why me]

Here's another reasonable suggestion. Put all your 10% on a specific item on that contribution slip other than Tithing. For example, put all the 10% on Fast Offering. This so you know it all went to the poor and needy! And you will never have to worry that it went to another investment strip mall in Provo, UT next to BYU just because BYU is known all over the world. In your heart, you have paid tithing, Period. and the Lord sees that.

Here is my problem: if the church was in poor straights financially, I would say that perhaps you would be right. But the church has been successful in how it deals with members tithes, investments and fast offering. I see no reason to change something that it successful. Critics love to bring up that the church has billions. And yet, we have 14 million members of which only perhaps half are tithe payers. Where did those billions come from? It seems that God is overseeing church finances. Why should I wish to change that? And why would you?

[JCNowandForever]

It is my understanding that tithes were not used for the Mall. But the church has many investments.

And you have supporting financial documents that tithes were not funneled into this $2Billion dollar investment (the Mall alone)? $5 Billion in the next five or 10 yrs for the whole revitalization purpose? How did this investment companies came to be funded? Let's see $7Billion (est. annual tithe), compute the interest income derived from a typical CD investment at 1% APR with maturity of 10 years using straight-line accounting method = 7 Billion x .01 x 10 yrs = 700 million. There's a short-fall of $4.3 Billion. Where is that coming from, in this simplified rough estimate calculation? Microsoft stock? they were down since the last dot com bubble? From a Google stock? You see where I'm coming from? Unless full-disclosure is made on these investment companies, we can just surmise that tithing was involve. I'm just speaking from an LDS perspective of only wanting to know the truth. Label it Anti or Rebellious whatever, doesn't matter. Truth will come out nonetheless. And Money speaks! So I suggest Conditional Donations from now on, until transparency is resolved. Don't worry about the tithing label. Your 10% conditional donation to Fast Offering is tithing to the Lord. Period.

[JCNowandForever]

And it helps the poor too, not some high-end tenant of the mall!

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[Pahoran]

And you have supporting financial documents that tithes were not funneled into this $2Billion dollar investment (the Mall alone)?

The President of the Church unequivocally stated that no tithing funds were used for the mall. His statement is direct evidence.

The burden of proof for any accusation rests with the accuser. If you are going to accuse the President of the Church of lying, you need to support that accusation with actual evidence.

$5 Billion in the next five or 10 yrs for the whole revitalization purpose? How did this investment companies came to be funded? Let's see $7Billion (est. annual tithe), compute the interest income derived from a typical CD investment at 1% APR with maturity of 10 years using straight-line accounting method = 7 Billion x .01 x 10 yrs = 700 million. There's a short-fall of $4.3 Billion. Where is that coming from, in this simplified rough estimate calculation? Microsoft stock? they were down since the last dot com bubble? From a Google stock? You see where I'm coming from?

Indeed. It's called "unsupported speculation." It does not rise to the level of evidence. Sorry.

Unless full-disclosure is made on these investment companies, we can just surmise that tithing was involve. I'm just speaking from an LDS perspective of only wanting to know the truth. Label it Anti or Rebellious whatever, doesn't matter. Truth will come out nonetheless. And Money speaks! So I suggest Conditional Donations from now on, until transparency is resolved. Don't worry about the tithing label. Your 10% conditional donation to Fast Offering is tithing to the Lord. Period.

No. It is not. Period.

And if any person rationalises to himself claiming a full tithe when he has donated to some other purpose, then he is rationalising a conscious falsehood.

Now you are at all times free to donate whatever you wish to whatever cause you please and for whatever purpose. But when you start advocating that Church members adopt your program in preference to the Lord's program, then the correct term for that is "apostasy."

I suggest you think about that.

But thank you for coming clean and admitting that your now closed "hypothetical" thread was in fact nothing of the sort, but a testing of the waters for this proposal.

We don't pay tithing so that we can dictate to the Church. We pay tithing because we believe that this is the Lord's Church; that its leaders are the Lord's servants; and that its mission is the Lord's work. If you don't believe those things, then I truly believe you will be better off donating to a cause that is nearer to your heart, and where you are confident that the money is being spent in a manner of which you will approve. I mean that quite sincerely.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Here's another reasonable suggestion. Put all your 10% on a specific item on that contribution slip other than Tithing. For example, put all the 10% on Fast Offering. This so you know it all went to the poor and needy! And you will never have to worry that it went to another investment strip mall in Provo, UT next to BYU just because BYU is known all over the world. In your heart, you have paid tithing, Period. and the Lord sees that.

Actually I am 100% confident that the Lord sees that in your heart you don't trust His servants to carry out His work as He sees fit, but want to decide how the money is being spent.

Do you know what I call money that I decide how it should be spent? I call it "my money."

Do you know what I call the tithing I have paid? I call it "the Lord's money."

If I chose to be generous with someone else's money (also known as stealing) I might try to rationalise that I have paid tithing, but in fact I have not, Period. And the Lord would see that.

Regards,

Pahoran

[CV75]

What do you think?

I think you can test it out yourself and come back and let know how it went. I think that would be the more meaningful discussion.

[Tacenda]

I think we just figured out the wheat from the tares (CASteinman's OP), according to the staunch LDS crowd on this topic, I'm somewhere in the middle on the mall thing. I guess if it will help revenue in the church that'd be great but hopefully the church will up the money they spend on humanitarian needs in the world too.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What can a member do in its charitable contributions to the Church that would help the Church be more consistent in the proper use of its funds. (This is not to say that the Church is not currently consistent or unaccountable. No.).

A lot of people though in and out of the church were surprised by the new Mall built by the Church in SLC for purposes of revitalizing SLC neighborhood area. Some thought it was misuse of Church funds. Some think it was for a good purpose.

I myself was surprised that the supposed purpose was to contribute to the revitalization of SLC neighborhood, when I see that my own neighborhood needed more revitalization than SLC. I'm curious what criteria the Church used to decide which neighborhood to help revitalize.

The Church Holdings and investments allow them to help even more...they are just being good stewards of what they are given...doing as Christ illustrated in the parable of the talents.

[CV75]

The Church Holdings and investments allow them to help even more...they are just being good stewards of what they are given...doing as Christ illustrated in the parable of the talents.

I agree. As long as Church headquarters are in SLC, I see nothing offensive about it improving its environs aesthetically and economically. It is being a good neighbor and influence in what is becoming more its host community.

[Walden]

The Mall was a good investment and it provided needed work for hundreds and hundreds of people. Also, since church headquarters is nearby it does help if that area is working well. What the church did with the Mall is to create employment at a time when jobs were scarce or in short supply. Who can argue with that? Certainly not a parent whose son or daughter is working their way through school and has a job at the Mall.

I am sure that it is comforting to tithe payers all over the world that their tithing was used to provide youth in Utah with jobs at a mall.

Yes, the lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.

[CV75]

I am sure that it is comforting to tithe payers all over the world that their tithing was used to provide youth in Utah with jobs at a mall.

Yes, the lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.

Since we are all connected, an employed youth at the Mall has every opportunity to bless the entire world and often does. This is the Lord's work and how He works. Of course there is opposition to this, but the anything the Church does tends to bless the world more than disadvantage it.

[tyler90az]

JC I like your spirit! You believe there is an innjustice in the system and desire to do what is right for people. You are among the noble and great my friend!

As far as your idea, read the fine print on the bottom of the new tithing slips. It says the church may use funds anyway it likes but will try to put towards requested fund. That basically means they can do whatever they want with your money. Nevertheless, I still trust they will do their best to put towards designated fund.

Like you, I question where the money goes often. It sure does make you wonder why they will not open the books. Lately, I have left out the church and made tithing based on the Gospel. It empowers me spirtiually much more then anything else. In addition, it is good because it shows money is not my God. It basically frees me from the captivity of the almighty dollar.

In the end, it is your choice, do what you want.

[CASteinman]

Since no tithing was used in the mall, the mention of the mall with respect to tithing is a red herring.

[Tacenda]

For nearly all our married life my husband paid tithe on the gross on our checks. Since maybe a couple years now it's on the net. But since the church has billions now should one be expected to pay on these terms or the terms set forth in the earlier church here in following partial quote I c/p from someone on Staylds.com.

"Extensions of Power by Michael D. Quinn, and focusing on core doctrine in the scriptures which defines tithing as 10% of one's interest -- which meant surplus back in JS's time. Taken with the fact that the church doesn't seem to really need such incredibly high amounts of funds from the membership right now, in this point in history..."

So what is the true way to pay a 10% tithe...gross or net of your paycheck or the increase after all the bills etc. Or is this a question for the bishop or could it land you in hot water for asking? Thoughts?

[Christian Mormon]

from what I know the church has investments...i bet they didnt use donations

[Mark Beesley]

So what is the true way to pay a 10% tithe...gross or net of your paycheck or the increase after all the bills etc. Or is this a question for the bishop or could it land you in hot water for asking? Thoughts?

If only . . . I could sent a bill to the Church each month to cover the bills my "increase" can't cover.

The true way to pay tithing is to pay what the Lord tells you to pay. Of course, this presupposes you have open communication lines with the Lord and are willing to listen when He speaks. And don't expect the Lord to tell everyone the same thing. He tailors His counsel to our individual circumstances. So, for some, He may say, pay on your gross. To others He may say, pay it on your net.

[JCNowandForever]

So what is the true way to pay a 10% tithe...gross or net of your paycheck or the increase after all the bills etc. Or is this a question for the bishop or could it land you in hot water for asking? Thoughts?

The way to pay tithing now Is "CONDITIONAL CONTRIBUTIONS". You can put that contributions as FAST OFFERING all 10% of it or some other specific concrete purpose. That way it is use the way it is restricted for that particular use, not to some Mall. I agree the Church has so much Billions now that they don't need my puny 10% (and they could very well not accept the donations) because they are so super rich and awash in cash that they don't need your aggravation. So everyone, contribute as CONDITIONAL DONATIONS. Don't worry about labels other "holy than thou" people try to paint us. This is a new revolutionary way to make sure the Funds are properly used for a specific purpose.

[thesometimesaint]

No. I don't have the right to decide how someone else spends their money. But I do have to right by law to decide the best use of my money when I donate it and make conditional donations. By law I'm allowed at least to do that. It doesn't preclude the church from spending their money. We do that every month when we pay fast offerings. Fast Offerings are conditional donations. They are restricted by law to go strictly to help the poor and the needy. We assume that the performance of helping the poor and the needy is completed and performed by the Church through it's Bishop storehouse and other needful use and we don't have any problem with that. So conditional donations is effective. The Lord didn't say not to use conditional donations.

The minute you give that money to someone else it isn't your money. You have the right to give or not give as you chose. You don't have the right to determine how that money is used by someone else. No; Fast Offering are not conditional. They can be spend in any way the Church feels appropriate. There is no law that says the Church must spend its monies on helping the poor and needy. That is part of the four fold mission of the Church, but it doesn't have the force of law. The Church could close every Bishop's storehouse today, and there is nothing the law could do about it, and the law sure could not force the Church to return any/all Fast Offering, or the time you/anyone spent voluntarily working at the storehouse.