To Help Future Proper Use Of Church Funds...

[JCNowandForever]

What can a member do in its charitable contributions to the Church that would help the Church be more consistent in the proper use of its funds. (This is not to say that the Church is not currently consistent or unaccountable. No.).

A lot of people though in and out of the church were surprised by the new Mall built by the Church in SLC for purposes of revitalizing SLC neighborhood area. Some thought it was misuse of Church funds. Some think it was for a good purpose.

I myself was surprised that the supposed purpose was to contribute to the revitalization of SLC neighborhood, when I see that my own neighborhood needed more revitalization than SLC. I'm curious what criteria the Church used to decide which neighborhood to help revitalize.

I propose Conditional Donations. Missionary Fund is a type of conditional donations where the funds are restricted solely for that purpose (missionary expenditures) and for no other purpose. So instead of filling out the Tithing/Offering boxes of the Contribution receipt, there's a blank box that is provided where a written purpose can be noted on the contribution. For example, members have used that blank box to pay for "Food Storage" items it purchased thru the Church. Something specific can be written that will restrict that funds to a specific purpose, such as "Print Book of Mormons, or "Upkeep and Maintenance of Church Buildings", etc, instead of giving a sorta "blank check" to the Church.

This also allows for a right to refund if the specific purpose was not met by the Church.

What do you think?

[volgadon]

I myself was surprised that the supposed purpose was to contribute to the revitalization of SLC neighborhood, when I see that my own neighborhood needed more revitalization than SLC. I'm curious what criteria the Church used to decide which neighborhood to help revitalize.

It is only a few minute's walk from Temple Square, the church's center, recognised as such worldwide. Good enough reasoning for this foreigner.

What do you think?

That this is your dog-fish in the kiddle-net, an old Kentish way of saying a bee in your bonnet.

[CASteinman]

I propose Conditional Donations. Missionary Fund is a type of conditional donations where the funds are restricted solely for that purpose (missionary expenditures) and for no other purpose. So instead of filling out the Tithing/Offering boxes of the Contribution receipt, there's a blank box that is provided where a written purpose can be noted on the contribution. For example, members have used that blank box to pay for "Food Storage" items it purchased thru the Church. Something specific can be written that will restrict that funds to a specific purpose, such as "Print Book of Mormons, or "Upkeep and Maintenance of Church Buildings", etc, instead of giving a sorta "blank check" to the Church.

This also allows for a right to refund if the specific purpose was not met by the Church.

What do you think?

I think its a modestly poor plan even if you never want to be a full tithe payer -- which you won't be.

How will you know that they spend your funds in a way you don't like? They will not tell you.

[Storm Rider]

I think you should follow your conscience. As for me, I pay my tithing because God tells me that after all he blesses me with, he seeks a tenth back for his own use as he sees fit. I tend to reject any concept of "I could run the church better if...insert your particular soapbox". As a LDS you know what you are supposed to do; do that and don't worry about the rest. If something is done improperly, God will mete out the justice you are seeking.

I am positive that if all church doors were green it would be more inviting to those not members. If the pictures were hung two inches lower it would make everyone really appreciate them. If the prophet would just talk directly to the world in General Conference all would feel better about the Church. If I were God I would make it so that everyone saw beautiful sunsets more often; needles would not hurt so much when giving shots; and I would make the lamb and the lion lay down together. We all think we can run things better than church leaders and even God sometimes. Geez, do you ever get tired of finding fault and just find it easier to stand firmly on good principles and try to live your life without so much griping and fault-finding? This from the old codger that gripes with the best of them. I have found a new motto that works for me: try being a source of peace in the world.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Storm Rider

[JCNowandForever]

How will you know that they spend your funds in a way you don't like? They will not tell you.

Exactly the whole purpose of the question of the thread on how our contributions can help future proper use of church funds. IRS rules allow that funds be return on conditional contributions/donations if the specific, restricted purpose was not met. This creates an incentive for proper use and accounting of the funds.

Being a full tithe payer has nothing to do with making conditional contributions. If you remember, it's between you and the Lord who decides what the full tithe payer is, not the Bishop. The Bishop will only ask if the contribution is a full tithe. Donating 10% of my income for any blank purpose will not help future proper use of church funds. Thus the suggestions...

[oremites]

I propose Conditional Donations ...

I guess it all comes down to how you think about tithing. Is it your money or is it the Lord's money? Do you have the right to decide how someone else spends their money? Who does have the right to decide how to spend the Lord's money?

Anyway, I think that Conditional Donations is about as good an idea as Conditional Obedience.

[JCNowandForever]

Do you have the right to decide how someone else spends their money?

No. I don't have the right to decide how someone else spends their money. But I do have to right by law to decide the best use of my money when I donate it and make conditional donations. By law I'm allowed at least to do that. It doesn't preclude the church from spending their money. We do that every month when we pay fast offerings. Fast Offerings are conditional donations. They are restricted by law to go strictly to help the poor and the needy. We assume that the performance of helping the poor and the needy is completed and performed by the Church through it's Bishop storehouse and other needful use and we don't have any problem with that. So conditional donations is effective. The Lord didn't say not to use conditional donations.

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[CASteinman]

Exactly the whole purpose of the question of the thread on how our contributions can help future proper use of church funds. IRS rules allow that funds be return on conditional contributions/donations if the specific, restricted purpose was not met. This creates an incentive for proper use and accounting of the funds.

Again.. how will you ever find out. The Church will not tell you.

Being a full tithe payer has nothing to do with making conditional contributions. If you remember, it's between you and the Lord who decides what the full tithe payer is, not the Bishop.

This is not really correct. A Bishop may determine that you are not a full tithe payer or that you are unworthy for a Temple Recommend as a judge in Israel.

[CASteinman]

The Lord didn't say not to use conditional donations.

The Lord said Pay Tithing. Tithing is not a Conditional Donation.

Why are you asking us about it here? Go and talk to your Bishop and find out for yourself. This is a waste of time.

[JCNowandForever]

Again.. how will you ever find out. The Church will not tell you.

You can request and hopefully they honor that request. Along with the request to account for use of a restricted fund, you can request that they tell you for tax purposes to determine if the conditional contribution has been met. Include in the request to refund the portion that was not used for that specified purpose. There will be accountability created in this type of donation. The IRS rules requires it.

This is not really correct. A Bishop may determine that you are not a full tithe payer or that you are unworthy for a Temple Recommend as a judge in Israel.

Whatever the determination by the Bishop, it has nothing to do with paying a conditional donation. You know in your heart and the Lord knows it that you have contributed your 10%. Really? Your whole purpose in your donation is just so you can go to the Temple? I'm not even goin to touch that subject.

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[Bernard Gui]

Fast Offerings are conditional donations. They are restricted by law to go strictly to help the poor and the needy.

Would you please provide a source for this statement?

[JCNowandForever]

The Lord said Pay Tithing. Tithing is not a Conditional Donation.

Tithing is just a label. Under that label the church is able to make multiple uses of that "Tithing fund". It uses it to build temples, church bldgs and malls.

Why are you asking us about it here? Go and talk to your Bishop and find out for yourself. This is a waste of time.

You can go to sleep now if this is a "waste of time" for you. Don't forget to brush your teeth

[CASteinman]

You can request and hopefully they honor that request. Along with the request to account for use of a restricted fund, you can request that they tell you for tax purposes to determine if the conditional contribution has been met. Include in the request to refund the portion that was not used for that specified purpose. There will be accountability created in this type of donation. The IRS rules requires it.

Whatever the determination by the Bishop, it has nothing to do with paying a conditional donation. You know in your heart and the Lord knows it that you have contributed your 10%. Really? Your whole purpose in your donation is just so you can go to the Temple? I'm not even goin to touch that subject.

You wont be paying any tithing. This is the rule.

[CASteinman]

Tithing is just a label. Under that label the church is able to make multiple uses of that "Tithing fund". It uses it to build temples, church bldgs and malls.

You can go to sleep now if this is a "waste of time" for you. Don't forget to brush your teeth

No, it is not just a label. You will not be paying a full tithing.

Its not a waste of time for me... its a waste of time for you and for everyone. Go to your Bishop and see how it plays. You will get no where. You are speculating about something you cannot do.

[JCNowandForever]

Would you please provide a source for this statement?

Sure. Here's a link to the IRS Website on Charitable contributions under the label "Conditional Gifts". (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p526/ar02.html#en_US_2011_publink1000229799) which says:

Conditional gift. If your contribution is a conditional gift that depends on a future act or event that may not take place, you cannot take a deduction. But if there is only a negligible chance that the act or event will not take place, you can take a deduction.

Here we know that Fast Offering takes place due to the fact of that there is a bishop storehouses. So the chance of this conditional act not happening is negligible and so It's tax deductible. If we contribute a conditional donation, say for example, for upkeep and maintenance of church bldgs, we know this event will take place because there are church bldgs all over. The chance of this not happening is nil. So it's tax deductible.

[JCNowandForever]

You are speculating about something you cannot do.

It is not speculation when you pay Fast Offering, which I hope you do. Fast Offering is a conditional donation. You do it every month. It's not speculation it's a reality.

[CASteinman]

It is not speculation when you pay Fast Offering, which I hope you do. Fast Offering is a conditional donation. You do it every month. It's not speculation it's a reality.

You cannot make a donation and call it tithing. The Church has defined this for decades now.

[JCNowandForever]

You cannot make a donation and call it tithing. The Church has defined this for decades now.

I'm not calling it tithing. I think the thread is pretty clear on what it is called. It's called "conditional donations". However you label it, it's conditional and the church will have to meet the expected purposes for this conditional donation. Call it tithing if you want, It doesn't matter. As for me I have conditionally contributed 10% of my income for a specific purpose. Come to think of it, I can even call it tithing and have it conditionally to go to "Build & maintain temples". Coz, Isn't tithing used for temple bldgs, among other things (except for a mall [cringing] ??

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[CASteinman]

I'm not calling it tithing. I think the thread is pretty clear on what it is called. It's called "conditional donations". However you label it, it's conditional and the church will have to meet the expected purposes for this conditional donation. Call it tithing if you want, It doesn't matter. As for me I have conditionally contributed 10% of my income for a specific purpose. I can even call it tithing and have it conditionally to go to "Build & maintain temples". Coz, Isn't tithing used for temple bldgs, among other things (except for a mall [cringing] ??

Well.. you imagine that the Church will have to meet the expected purposes... but you are wrong. It won't have to unless you make it a contractual obligation. And if you do that they won't accept it.

This is a pipe dream.

And it is rebellion.

And you cannot call it tithing and have the Church support that either with the IRS or with you in any records. Its just an imaginary thing you have decided.

Edited August 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[JCNowandForever]

And if you do that they won't accept it.

This is a pipe dream.

And it is rebellion.

Put in escrow if they don't accept it. At least it's out of my account and I have no longer control of it, thus a deductible item.

Or should we put in your account?

If it's a rebellion, may the force be with us..

[CASteinman]

Put in escrow if they don't accept it. At least it's out of my account and I have no longer control of it, thus a deductible item.

Or should we put in your account?

If it's a rebellion, may the force be with us..

money put into escrow is not deductible. To be deductible title must pass.

It is rebellion.

[why me]

What can a member do in its charitable contributions to the Church that would help the Church be more consistent in the proper use of its funds. (This is not to say that the Church is not currently consistent or unaccountable. No.).

A lot of people though in and out of the church were surprised by the new Mall built by the Church in SLC for purposes of revitalizing SLC neighborhood area. Some thought it was misuse of Church funds. Some think it was for a good purpose.

I myself was surprised that the supposed purpose was to contribute to the revitalization of SLC neighborhood, when I see that my own neighborhood needed more revitalization than SLC. I'm curious what criteria the Church used to decide which neighborhood to help revitalize.

What do you think?

The Mall was a good investment and it provided needed work for hundreds and hundreds of people. Also, since church headquarters is nearby it does help if that area is working well. What the church did with the Mall is to create employment at a time when jobs were scarce or in short supply. Who can argue with that? Certainly not a parent whose son or daughter is working their way through school and has a job at the Mall.

[JCNowandForever]

It is rebellion.

Regardless how you label it, you can't avoid the inevitable. The lack of transparency & accountability, with full-disclosure have to be addressed sooner or later. Money talks. I'm sure you've heard of the phrase. If the Church would not accept this conditional donations, it's their loss, not ours. Labeling it for strawman and ad-homenim purposes doesn't change the facts of the matter.

[why me]

I propose Conditional Donations. Missionary Fund is a type of conditional donations where the funds are restricted solely for that purpose (missionary expenditures) and for no other purpose. So instead of filling out the Tithing/Offering boxes of the Contribution receipt, there's a blank box that is provided where a written purpose can be noted on the contribution. For example, members have used that blank box to pay for "Food Storage" items it purchased thru the Church. Something specific can be written that will restrict that funds to a specific purpose, such as "Print Book of Mormons, or "Upkeep and Maintenance of Church Buildings", etc, instead of giving a sorta "blank check" to the Church.

This also allows for a right to refund if the specific purpose was not met by the Church.

What do you think?

I don't agree. I think that when a members give to the church, it is up to that church to decide where those funds are most needed. We need to remember that lds believe that the church is run by christ through revelation for the general welfare of the church and its members. I think that your way does not support what I just what. Your way supposes that the church is run only by human beings without revelation. So far, the church has done quite well not just for the members but for the church as a whole. The collective is made up of a collective group of people and not a series of individuals who demand this and demand that for their own belief systems.

[CASteinman]

Regardless how you label it, you can't avoid the inevitable. The lack of transparency & accountability, with full-disclosure have to be addressed sooner or later.

You have no authority in this matter.

Money talks. I'm sure you've heard of the phrase. If the Church would not accept this conditional donations, it's their loss, not ours.

That is incorrect. Through rebellion, people who do not pay tithing disqualify themselves for the Celestial Kingdom. Meanwhile the Church rolls on through the efforts of the humble and faithful.

Labeling it for strawman and ad-homenim purposes doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Maybe.. maybe not.... but since it was not labeled for strawman and ad-hominem purposes, this is irrelevant.

Edited August 22, 2012 by CASteinman