To Help Future Proper Use Of Church Funds...

[JCNowandForever]

JC I like your spirit! You believe there is an innjustice in the system and desire to do what is right for people. You are among the noble and great my friend!

As far as your idea, read the fine print on the bottom of the new tithing slips. It says the church may use funds anyway it likes but will try to put towards requested fund. That basically means they can do whatever they want with your money. Nevertheless, I still trust they will do their best to put towards designated fund.

Like you, I question where the money goes often. It sure does make you wonder why they will not open the books. Lately, I have left out the church and made tithing based on the Gospel. It empowers me spirtiually much more then anything else. In addition, it is good because it shows money is not my God. It basically frees me from the captivity of the almighty dollar.

In the end, it is your choice, do what you want.

Thank you.

As far as the disclaimer at the bottom of the slips, they have no force in the law, especially when the DONOR specifically and restrictively specify a specific event or action to be completed by the Donee. For example, in the case of FAST OFFERING, the church is legally bound to separate and segregate these fund that was specifically intended by the Donor to go to the poor and needy. They cannot use it to maintain buildings or build temples. If they do they violate IRS Rules and they lose their tax-exempt status if they are audited and found to funnel Fast Offering funds to build a Mall, for example. So despite the disclaimer on the slip, you can specify concrete items such as "Build Temple" and that funds will be restricted and segregated from general funds to go toward "Building Temples" and you can ask for an accounting of such funds (which is allowed by law) for tax deductability purposes and the Church has to comply and account for that request, otherwise, they will be in violation of their tax-exempt status. This is a very revolutionary way to make sure funds are properly used and not funneled to some other Mall.

[ERayR]

What can a member do in its charitable contributions to the Church that would help the Church be more consistent in the proper use of its funds. (This is not to say that the Church is not currently consistent or unaccountable. No.).

A lot of people though in and out of the church were surprised by the new Mall built by the Church in SLC for purposes of revitalizing SLC neighborhood area. Some thought it was misuse of Church funds. Some think it was for a good purpose.

I myself was surprised that the supposed purpose was to contribute to the revitalization of SLC neighborhood, when I see that my own neighborhood needed more revitalization than SLC. I'm curious what criteria the Church used to decide which neighborhood to help revitalize.

I propose Conditional Donations. Missionary Fund is a type of conditional donations where the funds are restricted solely for that purpose (missionary expenditures) and for no other purpose. So instead of filling out the Tithing/Offering boxes of the Contribution receipt, there's a blank box that is provided where a written purpose can be noted on the contribution. For example, members have used that blank box to pay for "Food Storage" items it purchased thru the Church. Something specific can be written that will restrict that funds to a specific purpose, such as "Print Book of Mormons, or "Upkeep and Maintenance of Church Buildings", etc, instead of giving a sorta "blank check" to the Church.

This also allows for a right to refund if the specific purpose was not met by the Church.

What do you think?

[ERayR]

No. I don't have the right to decide how someone else spends their money. But I do have to right by law to decide the best use of my money when I donate it and make conditional donations. By law I'm allowed at least to do that. It doesn't preclude the church from spending their money. We do that every month when we pay fast offerings. Fast Offerings are conditional donations. They are restricted by law to go strictly to help the poor and the needy. We assume that the performance of helping the poor and the needy is completed and performed by the Church through it's Bishop storehouse and other needful use and we don't have any problem with that. So conditional donations is effective. The Lord didn't say not to use conditional donations.

[ERayR]

Sure. Here's a link to the IRS Website on Charitable contributions under the label "Conditional Gifts". (http://www.irs.gov/p...blink1000229799) which says:

Conditional gift. If your contribution is a conditional gift that depends on a future act or event that may not take place, you cannot take a deduction. But if there is only a negligible chance that the act or event will not take place, you can take a deduction.

Here we know that Fast Offering takes place due to the fact of that there is a bishop storehouses. So the chance of this conditional act not happening is negligible and so It's tax deductible. If we contribute a conditional donation, say for example, for upkeep and maintenance of church bldgs, we know this event will take place because there are church bldgs all over. The chance of this not happening is nil. So it's tax deductible.

You are only scratching at the surface of a very complex tax issue of which you exhibit a dangerous ignorance. WARNING DANGEROUS: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME BY YOURSELF GET THE ADVICE OF A TAX SPECIALIST.

[ERayR]

Sure. Here's a link to the IRS Website on Charitable contributions under the label "Conditional Gifts". (http://www.irs.gov/p...blink1000229799) which says:

Conditional gift. If your contribution is a conditional gift that depends on a future act or event that may not take place, you cannot take a deduction. But if there is only a negligible chance that the act or event will not take place, you can take a deduction.

Here we know that Fast Offering takes place due to the fact of that there is a bishop storehouses. So the chance of this conditional act not happening is negligible and so It's tax deductible. If we contribute a conditional donation, say for example, for upkeep and maintenance of church bldgs, we know this event will take place because there are church bldgs all over. The chance of this not happening is nil. So it's tax deductible.

You are only scratching at the surface of a very complex tax issue of which you exhibit a dangerous ignorance. WARNING DANGEROUS: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME BY YOURSELF GET THE ADVICE OF A TAX SPECIALIST.

[Closet Doubter]

. . . . and it provided needed work for hundreds and hundreds of people. . . . . What the church did with the Mall is to create employment at a time when jobs were scarce or in short supply. Who can argue with that? Certainly not a parent whose son or daughter is working their way through school and has a job at the Mall.

Let me try and understand this. During the worst recession our country has seen in 75 years the Church lays off the majority of its janitorial workforce, most likely to reduce cash flow due to the $600M they had to sink into beneficial life and the $3B into the mall and we are justifying the mall based on the jobs it created in Salt Lake City?

[JCNowandForever]

Another way to help future proper use of Church Funds is to include a notation on the back of your checks like below:

The following information is circulating in several forums in the internet in which members are said to be paying tithing as a Conditional Donation with the following stipulations:

On the back of their tithing check, the following words are written:

“SUBJECT TO REFUND UPON REQUEST (SEE TERMS AND CONDITIONS).”

They said when they give the donations to their Bishops (or counselors), the check and the tithing receipts are enclosed with the following information:

TERMS AND CONDITIONS:

· This donation is a conditional donation

· This conditional donation is given voluntarily and will be used by the Church as it sees fit

· The right to exercise for a complete refund of all conditional donations will never be exercise by this member while membership in the Church remains in good status.

· This member reserves the right to exercise a complete refund of all conditional donations upon termination of membership in the Church.

o Upon voluntary termination (resignation) of membership in the Church, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all conditional donations.

o In the event of an excommunication action, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all donations.

· All donations are conditional donations, unless otherwise noted.

[tyler90az]

Thank you.

As far as the disclaimer at the bottom of the slips, they have no force in the law, especially when the DONOR specifically and restrictively specify a specific event or action to be completed by the Donee. For example, in the case of FAST OFFERING, the church is legally bound to separate and segregate these fund that was specifically intended by the Donor to go to the poor and needy. They cannot use it to maintain buildings or build temples. If they do they violate IRS Rules and they lose their tax-exempt status if they are audited and found to funnel Fast Offering funds to build a Mall, for example. So despite the disclaimer on the slip, you can specify concrete items such as "Build Temple" and that funds will be restricted and segregated from general funds to go toward "Building Temples" and you can ask for an accounting of such funds (which is allowed by law) for tax deductability purposes and the Church has to comply and account for that request, otherwise, they will be in violation of their tax-exempt status. This is a very revolutionary way to make sure funds are properly used and not funneled to some other Mall.

Then what would be the point of putting it at the bottom of the tithing slip?

[KevinG]

JCNowandforever I could have saved you a lot of arguing at the start of this thread.

There is a little space at the bottom of the tithing slip called "Other:" If you want your donation to go to a specific place use that and write where you want it to go. It will not be considered tithing and may or may not be taxable depending on the cause but you can do that anytime you wish.

I use it to pay for Scout Camp. Its not tithing or tax deductible but it all goes to Scout Camp.

[KevinG]

Look up the word fungible.

[Closet Doubter]

And what is your definition of proper use of church funds? I haven't seen any improper use of church funds? Was anything done illegally? That would be improper. We all have are pet peeves. Let me put it this way: If I don't agree that the poor people of Honduras should have toothbrushes should I be able to avoid my tithes going to Honduras? if the church is using funds for toothbrushes for Honduras? Anarchy within the tithe system is not a good thing.

We will never know if the funds are utilized properly because the leaders of the Church decided in 1959 tht they are no longer accountable to the membership in areas of finances. Latter day revelations state that in the Church, all things will be done by common consent. This implies accountability and the membership knowing what the leaders are doing. Unfortunately the Church has gotten away from that. I have heard it explained that if the Church was open about its finances, the information would be used by our enemies. If the financial decisions are being made correctly, there should be so much good that would come out of being open that the few questionable items would be far overshadowed. I suspect that because of zero accountability for the last 53 years that if the finances were made public, there would be so many questionable items that the Church leadership would be embarrased. I for one, would support a change in the tax law that would require public reporting of the use of all funds that are allowed to be claimed on the income tax form as a deduction. The pressure from the general membership would than be so great on our leadership that they would have to make public the use of the dontated funds. This would assure that they clean up the finances if in fact they need cleaning up.

[Grundelwalken]

Another way to help future proper use of Church Funds is to include a notation on the back of your checks like below:

The following information is circulating in several forums in the internet in which members are said to be paying tithing as a Conditional Donation with the following stipulations:

On the back of their tithing check, the following words are written:

“SUBJECT TO REFUND UPON REQUEST (SEE TERMS AND CONDITIONS).”

They said when they give the donations to their Bishops (or counselors), the check and the tithing receipts are enclosed with the following information:

TERMS AND CONDITIONS:

· This donation is a conditional donation

· This conditional donation is given voluntarily and will be used by the Church as it sees fit

· The right to exercise for a complete refund of all conditional donations will never be exercise by this member while membership in the Church remains in good status.

· This member reserves the right to exercise a complete refund of all conditional donations upon termination of membership in the Church.

o Upon voluntary termination (resignation) of membership in the Church, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all conditional donations.

o In the event of an excommunication action, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all donations.

· All donations are conditional donations, unless otherwise noted.

All of this makes me think of the rich young man who asked to follow the Savior. When he was told how to become a true disciple, he walked away in sorrow. MW

[JCNowandForever]

Then what would be the point of putting it at the bottom of the tithing slip?

This was only for accounting purposes that they put this disclaimer at the bottom of the slip so as not have to deal with different specific purposes. They want to put it in one umbrella "Tithing" so it can be funnelled to Bldgs, Temples, Malls, Salary, etc. The law doesn't prevent a Donor for conditionally giving a conditional gift. It's perfectly fine under the law to specify the funds for a specific purposes. If that funds are not used for the intended purposes that the Donor specified, the funds are subject to return to the Donor.

[ERayR]

Fast Offerings are conditional donations.

Would you please provide a source for this statement?

Fast Offering are an accounting category to account for funds reserved for helping the needy. It is so they can account for funds specifically donated for this purpose. The funds in this category are first used locally in the ward. If there is excess it then goes to the stake to distribute at the stake level where needed. Any excess funds are then used on a church wide basis. If local contributions are insufficient to meet the needs the ward is first supplemented from the stake then from church wide funds.

Our illustrious schemer has a limited understanding of what he is reading into tax law.

[KevinG]

I am sure that it is comforting to tithe payers all over the world that their tithing was used to provide youth in Utah with jobs at a mall.

Yes, the lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.

5000 temporary and 2500 permenant jobs, a nbew home for the LDS business college, office space for the church and a thriving retail space in the heart of SLC. Imaging the amount of fast offering funds now flowing out of SLC into the world as opposed to the other way around.

Not so mysterious or sinister.

[ERayR]

Put in escrow if they don't accept it. At least it's out of my account and I have no longer control of it, thus a deductible item.

Or should we put in your account?

If it's a rebellion, may the force be with us..

[ERayR]

This was only for accounting purposes that they put this disclaimer at the bottom of the slip so as not have to deal with different specific purposes. They want to put it in one umbrella "Tithing" so it can be funnelled to Bldgs, Temples, Malls, Salary, etc. The law doesn't prevent a Donor for conditionally giving a conditional gift. It's perfectly fine under the law to specify the funds for a specific purposes. If that funds are not used for the intended purposes that the Donor specified, the funds are subject to return to the Donor.

A lack knowledge is dangerous. It can also be entertaining if nobody is foolish enough to take it seriously.

[ERayR]

We will never know if the funds are utilized properly because the leaders of the Church decided in 1959 tht they are no longer accountable to the membership in areas of finances. Latter day revelations state that in the Church, all things will be done by common consent. This implies accountability and the membership knowing what the leaders are doing. Unfortunately the Church has gotten away from that. I have heard it explained that if the Church was open about its finances, the information would be used by our enemies. If the financial decisions are being made correctly, there should be so much good that would come out of being open that the few questionable items would be far overshadowed. I suspect that because of zero accountability for the last 53 years that if the finances were made public, there would be so many questionable items that the Church leadership would be embarrased. I for one, would support a change in the tax law that would require public reporting of the use of all funds that are allowed to be claimed on the income tax form as a deduction. The pressure from the general membership would than be so great on our leadership that they would have to make public the use of the dontated funds. This would assure that they clean up the finances if in fact they need cleaning up.

Edited August 22, 2012 by ERayR

[JCNowandForever]

JCNowandforever I could have saved you a lot of arguing at the start of this thread.

There is a little space at the bottom of the tithing slip called "Other:" If you want your donation to go to a specific place use that and write where you want it to go. It will not be considered tithing and may or may not be taxable depending on the cause but you can do that anytime you wish.

That's what I suggested in this thread, didn't I? Use the Blank or Other box to specify your CONDITIONAL DONATIONS. And the Church will have to account for that specific purpose and they must tell you that they met the condition for it to be tax deductible. It would be tax deductible if it's negligible that it won't happen, as in the case of the example of Fast Offering I gave. Because the church has storehouses intended for the poor and needy your CONDITIONAL DONATION to Fast Offering is unlikely to not happen, thus its tax deductible, and so other purposes specified which the Church has to be met, legally, or they refund the money back to the donor if they don't meet the specified purposes.

We are not talking about Tithing here. Tithing is a catch-all phrase. If you make a CONDITIONAL DONATIONS that comprise of 10% of your income, in your heart its tithing and the Lord knows it.

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[ERayR]

I am sure that it is comforting to tithe payers all over the world that their tithing was used to provide youth in Utah with jobs at a mall.

Yes, the lord certainly does work in mysterious ways.

Again false. Tithing money was not used for this project.

[JCNowandForever]

Fast Offering are an accounting category to account for funds reserved for helping the needy. It is so they can account for funds specifically donated for this purpose. The funds in this category are first used locally in the ward. If there is excess it then goes to the stake to distribute at the stake level where needed. Any excess funds are then used on a church wide basis. If local contributions are insufficient to meet the needs the ward is first supplemented from the stake then from church wide funds.

Our illustrious schemer has a limited understanding of what he is reading into tax law.

No, I don't have a problem with the fast offering funds to go from ward, and the excess to the stake or to the worldwide fast offering fund or back to stake and ward if there's short fall, as long as that fund is specifically used for the poor and the needy and NOT FOR THE MALL!!!

[JCNowandForever]

Again false. Tithing money was not used for this project.

You have no supporting financial document to back up your claim, other than hearsay.

[KevinG]

That's what I suggested in this thread, didn't I? Use the Blank or Other box to specify your CONDITIONAL DONATIONS. And the Church will have to account for that specific purpose and they must tell you that they met the condition for it to be tax deductible. It would be tax deductible if it's negligible that it won't happen, as in the case of the example of Fast Offering I gave. Because the church as storehouses intended for the poor and needy your CONDITIONAL DONATION to Fast Offering is unlikely to not happen, thus its tax deductible, and so other purposes specified which the Church has to be met, legally, or they refund the money back to the donor if they don't meet the specified purposes.

We are not talking about Tithing here. Tithing is a catch-all phrase. If you make a CONDITIONAL DONATIONS that comprise of 10% of your income, in your heart its tithing and the Lord knows it.

In fact conditional donations are not tithing and the Lord knows it.

Tithing: A Test of Faith with Eternal Blessings

[KevinG]

You have no supporting financial document to back up your claim, other than hearsay.

If you don't believe a prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then why are you a member?

"I call attention to that which has received much notice in the local press. This is our decision to purchase the shopping mall property immediately to the south of Temple Square.

We feel we have a compelling responsibility to protect the environment of the Salt Lake Temple. The Church owns most of the ground on which this mall stands. The owners of the buildings have expressed a desire to sell. The property needs very extensive and expensive renovation. We have felt it imperative to do something to revitalize this area. But I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes.

Funds for this have come and will come from those commercial entities owned by the Church. These resources, together with the earnings of invested reserve funds, will accommodate this program." -President Gordon B Hinkley, April 2003 General Conference

Edited August 22, 2012 by KevinG

[ERayR]

No, I don't have a problem with the fast offering funds to go from ward, and the excess to the stake or to the worldwide fast offering fund or back to stake and ward if there's short fall, as long as that fund is specifically used for the poor and the needy and NOT FOR THE MALL!!!

CFR that fast offering funds were used for the mall. Provide or retract and this time if it is not complied with I will report to mods