How do you define spiritual progress?

[MustardSeed]

(I’m reading my above post and I can see how ridiculous I sound. Soaking in elimination? How about “ sitting in a poopy diaper “,  Mustard. 🙄)

Edited November 5, 2024 by MustardSeed

[manol]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

(I’m reading my above post and I can see how ridiculous I sound. Soaking in elimination? How about “ sitting in a poopy diaper “,  Mustard. 🙄)

I thought it peculiarly poetic.

[Kenngo1969]

We're told that we will be judged by our thoughts, our words, and our deeds [see Mosiah 4:30] ( though, still, I have a long way to go, I am getting better at thinking better thoughts, speaking better words, and doing better deeds ... I think!).  Fortunately, also, we are judged by the thoughts and the intents of our hearts.  Not infrequently, I feel to exclaim in the words of the man who asked the Savior to heal his son, "Lord, I believe!  Help Thou mine unbelief!"  Mark 9:23.  O Lord, Thou knowest my heart!  

There is the old saying, "Don't show me what a man wants by telling me what he says.  Show me what a man wants by showing me what he does."  I hope the gulf between what I say I want and what I prove I want by what I actually do, gradually, is getting smaller.  I try to remember that I am not, essentially, a mortal being who is sent here to have occasional spiritual experiences, I am, essentially, a spiritual being who has been sent here to have a mortal experience.

President Ezra Taft Benson said once that the day obedience becomes a quest and not an irritation is the day we gain power.  I'm not there ... yet.  But ... slowly but surely ... I'm getting there, I think.  The world's pull isn't as strong on me as it was once.  I think I'm more inclined toward spiritual things than I have been in the past.  I wish I could give you The Magic Formula, but a certain amount of that comes with age ... experience ... added perspective ... added ability to "not sweat the small stuff," along with a greater ability to recognize that most of it is "small stuff."

I had a dream once.  I can't remember the dream, Alas!, which makes this bit of "wisdom" without the necessary perspective that the dream would provide nearly worthless, but I awoke with the thought, "Treasure the ore, cast the dross away; treasure the grain, cast the chaff away."  One of my favorite verses in all of Latter-day Saint hymnody is verse 5 from "How Firm A Foundation."  Economic realities of extensive lettering on headstones aside, if at all possible, I would like it as my epitaph: "When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie, My Grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply!  The flame will not hurt thee, I only design thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine."  Most to the point, it's not about what we think, about what we say, or about what we do, as much as it is about what, eventually, we become.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

On 11/4/2024 at 3:17 PM, Dario_M said:

By who? 🙂

Friends mostly.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/3/2024 at 9:31 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I believe our spiritual progress is defined by many things, including our calling but not limited to our calling. 

What do you do to check on your spiritual progress? How do you know you're progressing when you basically serve with the youth for 20 years, in many states and make stakes?

Spiritual progress in this life?  Maybe, but for some just maintaining stasis might be the best you can hope for, pending the true spiritual progress (eternal progression) on the other side of the veil.  Indeed, worrying about more than just getting by may be too depressing for many folks, thus driving them out of the faith.  Matthew 6:34,

     "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"

It is sometimes hard enough just to get through the day:  Take it one day at a time.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Spiritual progress in this life?  Maybe, but for some just maintaining stasis might be the best you can hope for, pending the true spiritual progress (eternal progression) on the other side of the veil.  Indeed, worrying about more than just getting by may be too depressing for many folks, thus driving them out of the faith.  Matthew 6:34,

     "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"

It is sometimes hard enough just to get through the day:  Take it one day at a time.

Being static doesn’t seem like a very scriptural approach to the gospel.

[bluebell]

I think I would define it as being in a state where you "hunger and thirst after righteousness". 

In my life, as long as I was in that state, it all felt like spiritual progress, even repenting when I messed up felt like spiritual progress.  Maybe that's because someone who is hungry and thirsty is someone that doesn't have food or drink, but really really wants it.  To me spiritual progress doesn't have much to do with how much righteousness we have (if we have any), just with how important being righteous is to us.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think I would define it as being in a state where you "hunger and thirst after righteousness". 

In my life, as long as I was in that state, it all felt like spiritual progress, even repenting when I messed up felt like spiritual progress.  Maybe that's because someone who is hungry and thirsty is someone that doesn't have food or drink, but really really wants it.  To me spiritual progress doesn't have much to do with how much righteousness we have (if we have any), just with how important being righteous is to us.

Yes, an investment.  If I’m invested, I’ll progress. If I’m detached, I’m declining. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes, an investment.  If I’m invested, I’ll progress. If I’m detached, I’m declining. 

That's a good way to say it.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/7/2024 at 5:17 PM, The Nehor said:

Being static doesn’t seem like a very scriptural approach to the gospel.

Fortunately, the Lord is merciful, and takes people as they are.

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:31 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I believe our spiritual progress is defined by many things, including our calling but not limited to our calling. 

What do you do to check on your spiritual progress? How do you know you're progressing when you basically serve with the youth for 20 years, in many states and make stakes?

Are you, everyday, a little bit better than the day before?

That's progress.

[telnetd]

On 11/4/2024 at 3:15 PM, Rain said:

 I'm unsure if I believe in the atonement or not, but I don't believe it as the church teaches it.

I've never stopped believing in God or his love for each of us.  

If you don't believe in how the church teaches the atonement, how do understand
John 3:16?

[Kenngo1969]

On 11/7/2024 at 2:01 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Spiritual progress in this life?  Maybe, but for some just maintaining stasis might be the best you can hope for, pending the true spiritual progress (eternal progression) on the other side of the veil.  Indeed, worrying about more than just getting by may be too depressing for many folks, thus driving them out of the faith.  Matthew 6:34,

     "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"

It is sometimes hard enough just to get through the day:  Take it one day at a time.

A glitch in the system enabled me to give you not just one, but two rep points for this, Robert.  I hope you appreciate them!  

[Kenngo1969]

On 11/7/2024 at 5:17 PM, The Nehor said:

Being static doesn’t seem like a very scriptural approach to the gospel.

Perhaps it depends on how much effort is required for one to "stay static."  (I don't know: That's simply a thought that occurred to me as I read that.)

[Tacenda]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:42 AM, JVW said:

I understand your point, and it is parallel to the way I think, but not quite the same. I'm not sure how to express it. There was a period of my life in which I regarded myself as less-active, but still attended church every week in spite of not being interested in it. I also never prayed or read scriptures (before, during, and after this time). Do I think it was bad that I went to church? No, maybe? Do I think it would have been better if I was more honest with God, myself, and my wife and stopped attending church? Not necessarily. I was aware of my desires when I attended church. I was hoping and clinging onto something, it was almost like an act of desperation.

On the other hand, a family I'm assigned to minister to, I typically pick up their kids every other week for church because the parents are split and one's a drunk and the other doesn't like religion. For around 4-5 months I didn't reach out to them or pick up their kids a single time. I was processing my mom's teminal diagnosis and it was all I could do some days to just get out of bed in the morning. I could have 'changed the diaper' and picked up the kids every other week, but I didn't. Would it have been better if I did? Maybe, probably? Or would it have been the straw that broke the camel's back in my world? I don't know, but I was honest with God during this time and I did what I felt like doing in my broken and weak effort to try and live my day-to-day life of work, family, errands, etc.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but I think you'll understand. It is a nebulous, hugely personal, determination to decide when 'changing the diaper' is the right choice. In general, in the church, I see people lie through their teeth. Everyone is 'nice', 'friendly', does their callings without caring about it. So my comments tend to be harsher because where I'm at there is too much deception and self-deception among the members. In other parts of the world, softer comments may be more appropriate. Perhaps there are wards where too many people shirk their duties and responsibilities because of how they feel, and they need to knock it off.

In a perfect world what if when you quit picking up that couple's children, the children missed going and one of their parents decided to change themselves and do something?

I think many people, like my good friend, about kill themselves taking care of everybody around them. She's been so stressed and yesterday while at dinner she couldn't order anything with spice in it, but only bland foods. She ate very slowly too. She has a very sensitive tongue because she does stuff to it internally maybe chews or something on it because of the stress. She's lost a ton of weight. She takes care of ailing parents and she takes care of 3 grand children during the days she isn't taking care of her parents. She is also Primary president and she works in the temple once a week. Sometimes I think members need to maybe not over do for people, let the members figure how to help themselves sometimes, not always of course. She has mostly been in wards where there's a lot of inactive members and she and her husband are constantly called to leadership callings, he's in the High Council, they are both kind of burnt out.  

Also, I've seen far too many stories of LDS parents not being a part of their grandchildren or children's lives because they have to go to the temple, or have to attend church or do something in their callings, and weren't there for family. I see this happening with the reverse situations too. 

Sorry so long, but I hear ya! I'm so sorry about your mother's diagnosis. 😥 I think you did the best thing for you and your mother!

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

A glitch in the system enabled me to give you not just one, but two rep points for this, Robert.  I hope you appreciate them!  

Thanks, buddy.

[Tacenda]

On 11/5/2024 at 10:13 AM, Rain said:

I think the problem is we really don't know where the other people are.  We only know where we are, and sometimes not even that.

Years ago I had a visiting teacher who came on the last day of every month and dropped off some craft.  I felt like I was only a check on her list.  A few years later I found out she was experiencing some pretty bad depression during the time she was my VT.  She expressed in a lesson or talk that this was the only way she could do her VTing during that time. 

Many years before that I had depression and had plans not to live. During that time I had no energy, but managed to wash my roommates dishes which kept me going one more day.

Now should have my VT decided to not come so I didn't feel like a checkmark with her self deception that she was caring for me? Or was it good she did because it might have helped heal her?  I don't know.  I don't think we can decide for others why they do or don't do things and just give them some grace.

I had VT'ers that would do drop offs as well, and I hated it. I've had several through the years. I guess I need to think about what you said here. Gave me new eyes. 

[Tacenda]

On 11/5/2024 at 10:42 AM, MustardSeed said:

(I’m reading my above post and I can see how ridiculous I sound. Soaking in elimination? How about “ sitting in a poopy diaper “,  Mustard. 🙄)

Love it, reminds me of the time I wrote in my mom's journal we kept to write in when each of my siblings and I would visit her in the assisted living memory care or eventually nursing home. I happen to have written that mom had a bowel movement. Maybe I wrote that during a time that she was constipated, not sure. Well my sisters gave me a hard time for writing "bowel movement" vs. "pooped", lol! I really felt stupid and still think of it to this day, how embarrassing. I'm the youngest, so I guess I feel a little too sensitive to criticism from them. How I wish though I'd said pooped!! 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

has a very sensitive tongue because she does stuff to it internally maybe chews or something on it because of the stress.

It might help her to get a retainer/rigid mouth guard for sleeping with that covers one side of her teeth (usually it’s the top). My RLS includes teeth grinding or chewing and my meds dry out my mouth so it’s been a problem the last several years, got really bad in spring, so I got a retainer and what a difference. I have tried the over the counter mouth guards and those just make it worse because I chew on them so hard my teeth ache. I had started chewing on my tongue or rubbing it along the top of my teeth and would wake up with a very painful sore spot. The retainer makes that go away plus makes me drool so dry mouth isn’t as bad a problem lol.  I did have to pay out of pocket, about 300$, but don’t have as good of dental insurance as I used to. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How I wish though I'd said pooped!! 

They would have teased you if you said that. That is what older siblings do.  
 

I was youngest for 7 years and it pretty much stuck with my older brother and sister even when two more came along.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

Duplicate

Edited November 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/3/2024 at 11:31 PM, nuclearfuels said:

What do you do to check on your spiritual progress? How do you know you're progressing?

For me it’s quite simple: do I judge less and love more.

I think there is a correlation with callings in this sense…when I was called to serve as a bishop, my first Sunday sitting on the stand looking at the members, I was filled with an overwhelming sense of love for them insomuch that I was willing to make any sacrifice necessary to serve them and to forego any judgment.

If I feel that way in whatever calling I might have, then I believe I’m making progress. The more I feel that way, the more I believe I am progressing.

Edited November 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

10 hours ago, telnetd said:

If you don't believe in how the church teaches the atonement, how do understand
John 3:16?

First, i never felt the bible was inerent so it didn't matter to me if gospel doctrine was different or if my beliefs were different than a scripture in the bible.

Second, after a deep dive into the NT and OT when I was gospel doctrine teacher and came away feeling much of the bible really wasn't "scripture" so again it doesn't really matter to me if my beliefs are different than any particular scripture.

So how do I understand John 3:16?  If Jesus atoned for our sins then John 3:16 is a poetic way to say it.  Or a misunderstanding. Or written wrong. Or any of another reasons why it says that.  I just personally don't believe in what I feel is an abusive father type of way with God saying his son needs to suffer. 

I get that other people don't feel that way.  I get that Jesus having a choice makes it ok with some.  I'm ok with them believing what they do.  I just am no longer able to do it.

Edited November 17, 2024 by Rain

[manol]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

I just personally don't belief in what I feel is an abusive father type of way with God saying his son needs to suffer. 

Neither do I.

6 hours ago, Rain said:

I get that other people don't feel that way.  I get that Jesus having a choice makes it ok with some.  I'm ok with them believing what they do.  I just am no longer able to do it.

Agreed.

I no longer think God is a vengeful being who must be appeased by punishment, either of the guilty or of an innocent sacrifice.  And even back when I did believe such, I was uncomfortable that in order for me to be spared punishment it would have to be inflicted on Christ.

So I join with you in not believing what the Church teaches about the atonement, but I understand the appeal for those who fear a vengeful God and/or a God who is subject to higher laws which mandate or require that a price be paid. 

 

Edited November 17, 2024 by manol

[Kenngo1969]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Thanks, buddy.

You betcha!