How do you define spiritual progress?

[InCognitus]

On 11/16/2024 at 5:20 PM, Rain said:

First, i never felt the bible was inerent so it didn't matter to me if gospel doctrine was different or if my beliefs were different than a scripture in the bible.

Second, after a deep dive into the NT and OT when I was gospel doctrine teacher and came away feeling much of the bible really wasn't "scripture" so again it doesn't really matter to me if my beliefs are different than any particular scripture.

So how do I understand John 3:16?  If Jesus atoned for our sins then John 3:16 is a poetic way to say it.  Or a misunderstanding. Or written wrong. Or any of another reasons why it says that.  I just personally don't believe in what I feel is an abusive father type of way with God saying his son needs to suffer. 

I get that other people don't feel that way.  I get that Jesus having a choice makes it ok with some.  I'm ok with them believing what they do.  I just am no longer able to do it.

You are probably already aware of this, but there are several different theories on the atonement, and some of them don't require the undesirable traits that you describe above.

I read or listened to something on the topic of the atonement in the last year that was persuasive to me about one of the views, but I can't seem to find (or remember) what it was, so I won't comment further until I find it.  

But in the meantime I think this website summarizes some of the views quite well:  7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized

[telnetd]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:20 PM, Rain said:

So how do I understand John 3:16?  If Jesus atoned for our sins then John 3:16 is a poetic way to say it.  Or a misunderstanding. Or written wrong. Or any of another reasons why it says that.  I just personally don't believe in what I feel is an abusive father type of way with God saying his son needs to suffer. 

Same as Isaiah 53.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Same as Isaiah 53.

Like i said, it doesn't really matter to me since I don't necessarily think of it as true scripture straight from God without man's intervention.

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Rain said:

Like i said, it doesn't really matter to me since I don't necessarily think of it as true scripture straight from God without man's intervention.

How do you decide what is true scripture straight from God?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you decide what is true scripture straight from God?

That’s easy…none.

No scripture has ever been written without the involvement of a fallen human.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you decide what is true scripture straight from God?

Probably close to the same way as you.  Pray about it and listen to what God says, trying to be humble enough to hear when it is Him.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

That’s easy…none.

No scripture has ever been written without the involvement of a fallen human.

Bernard left off my "without man's intervention" so I assumed he meant how I was trying to describe it -  scripture that was written down as God meant for it to be written rather than changed by men before or after it was written.

[Mfbnew]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

That’s easy…none.

No scripture has ever been written without the involvement of a fallen human.

...AND without the ambiguities of language, using symbols for experiences that must be completely subjective.   These are squiggles on a page, and cannot possibly contain the full "truth" of Godliness.

It's like trying to pet the WORD "cat"- one needs to EXPERIENCE God, and not search for facts about things we are not even able to experience.   Suppose you "married" someone by reading a book which includes every possible OBJECTIVE FACT about your chosen "spouse" without ever even meeting them.

To treat God as an "object" to study, as one might describe photosynthesis and not describing the aroma of the growing plant- and how does one describe an aroma without the word "LIKE"??  "It's like a rose"...  but what if you have never experienced a rose?

As William James explained it- the steak on the menu has no sizzle!

Words take you nowhere! "Objective truth" cannot describe God because God is not an object!   God is in us and part of us, and we are in Him and part of Him.   We are all the "body of Christ".

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

It is an eternal "dance" together with God- there is a word that tries to explain it all, but of course even that word IS a word and cannot surpass the problem of the objectification words cause by what they are.

The word is "Perichoresis ".

Hope that helps someone.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Mfbnew

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

Bernard left off my "without man's intervention" so I assumed he meant how I was trying to describe it -  scripture that was written down as God meant for it to be written rather than changed by men before or after it was written.

That is how I understood it and my answer is still none. I don’t think any scripture has been written exactly like God wanted…what would that be anyway?  How would even a perfect scripture be guaranteed to be understood the way it was meant, after all?

I think God applies the “good enough” rule when he works with imperfect men and women.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

...AND without the ambiguities of language, using symbols for experiences that must be completely subjective.   These are squiggles on a page, and cannot possibly contain the full "truth" of Godliness.

It's like trying to pet the WORD "cat"- one needs to EXPERIENCE God, and not search for facts about things we are not even able to experience.   Suppose you "married" someone by reading a book which includes every possible OBJECTIVE FACT about your chosen "spouse" without ever even meeting them.

To treat God as an "object" to study, as one might describe photosynthesis and not describing the aroma of the growing plant- and how does one describe an aroma without the word "LIKE"??  "It's like a rose"...  but what if you have never experienced a rose?

Words take you nowhere! "Objective truth" cannot describe God because God is not an object!   God is in us and part of us, and we are in Him and part of Him.   We are all the "body of Christ".

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

It is an eternal "dance" together with God- there is a word that tries to explain it all, but of course even that word IS a word and cannot surpass the problem of the objectification words cause by what they are.

The word is "Perichoresis ".

Hope that helps someone.

I LOVE this:

"

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

"It is an eternal "dance" together with God"

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is how I understood it and my answer is still none. I don’t think any scripture has been written exactly like God wanted…what would that be anyway?  How would even a perfect scripture be guaranteed to be understood the way it was meant, after all?

I think God applies the “good enough” rule when he works with imperfect men and women.

I think if you are looking at meaning you are probably right.  I think if you are looking at how it changes a person's heart then good enough may be perfect sometimes.

[Mfbnew]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Probably close to the same way as you.  Pray about it and listen to what God says, trying to be humble enough to hear when it is Him.

Bernard left off my "without man's intervention" so I assumed he meant how I was trying to describe it -  scripture that was written down as God meant for it to be written rather than changed by men before or after it was written.

IMO I would say that God does not use words at all- remember the parable of Babel and the confounding of language.   Putting God into words is like building a tower to heaven.

But yes we have to use this faulty tool which is all we have in order to learn the path- but seeing a map of Paris is different than BEING IN Paris, but if that's all we have, it's better than nothing!!

Words can become like a golden idol imo.   They pretend to be God, but never will be.

That is why we are told to ASK GOD ourselves and he will give us our testimonies.

A movie about God is NOT God himself.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think if you are looking at meaning you are probably right.  I think if you are looking at how it changes a person's heart then good enough may be perfect sometimes.

I apply “good enough” solely to the product of men’s hands here, including God’s words that get transmitted by men.

The spirit can communicate with a person and the spirit can be a perfect communication because it can be tailored to an individual.  Now if that individual tries to communicate perfectly what was conveyed to them, they will fail, but the perfect communication changing a person’s heart doesn’t have to go through that filter.

[Mfbnew]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

I LOVE this:

"

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

"It is an eternal "dance" together with God"

I like it too- just don't give me credit for it!   Study it out- it is primarily a Jewish way of seeing!

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

I like it too- just don't give me credit for it!   Study it out- it is primarily a Jewish way of seeing!

Where do you suggest I study? 

[JVW]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is how I understood it and my answer is still none. I don’t think any scripture has been written exactly like God wanted…what would that be anyway?  How would even a perfect scripture be guaranteed to be understood the way it was meant, after all?

I think God applies the “good enough” rule when he works with imperfect men and women.

I have had at least two experiences in my life in which I could say that I was given words from God. One of them was the experience in which God introduced Himself to me and started me on the path away from Atheism. At the time I was thinking (in a nutshell) about how strange the universe is. The words I were given were "Everything has always been the way that it is." During the moment in which I was experiencing the Divine, I had a true (one might say "eternal") understanding and comprehension of those words. After the moment had passed, the feelings and comprehension were gone, but the words remained. I have written those words down here, and they are the truth, and they came from God. But do they really convey anything immense to anyone who reads them, even to myself? No, not really. Without the aid of God in comprehending the words He's given me, they don't really convey much.

I share this in order to suggest that there are words that God has given to men, and they have written them, and they have been unaltered. There are many words which have been altered, but I do believe there are words which have remained pure. I'm not saying that everything in the book of Mormon is exactly God's word, but when Jesus is being quoted I can imagine that it was the words that He spoke at the time, unadulterated.

Whether or not God's words in the scriptures are pure or have had any alteration, they are definitely in a special place. I have received revelations from reading very secular material, pagan material, business material, etc. But if I am specifically looking for revelations from God I will turn to the words of the prophets. They are, by far, the words that will be the most likely to facilitate experiencing God out of anything I could choose to read.

[Mfbnew]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I apply “good enough” solely to the product of men’s hands here, including God’s words that get transmitted by men.

The spirit can communicate with a person and the spirit can be a perfect communication because it can be tailored to an individual.  Now if that individual tries to communicate perfectly what was conveyed to them, they will fail, but the perfect communication changing a person’s heart doesn’t have to go through that filter.

Yes, how does a bird's brain know the course to fly a thousand miles over ocean waters to land exactly on the island of its birth?   

That tiny bird's brain knowing every island and peninsula is NOT the target "promised land"?   It has to be "God" or the "Force" or the "Universe" which is guiding it.   Use whatever word you like- but all words ARE after all, ambiguous grunts!

I prefer "God", or the light of some kind of "Earth Intelligence" because I have experienced that sort of thing.  How about "The light of Christ"? 😍

Even secular folks believe that "God" is the universe itself.  That belief is called "Pantheism".

Yet again the problem is words- because we call it the "Light of Christ", suddenly we are a cult,when we are so, so close to the same beliefs.

 

 

[Mfbnew]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

Where do you suggest I study? 

You don't have to make it complicated- maybe just Google "Perichoresis".   It is a generalized term that is often associated with descriptions of how the Godhead are three persons working/playing/dancing together as One.

AKA- "Sacred Dance"

I have even seen some references to perichoresis in reference to the LDS temple "Prayer Circle".   Think about that and the symbology- and how the Prayer Circle could fit the definition.   Very interesting stuff!

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, Rain said:

I LOVE this:

"

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

"It is an eternal "dance" together with God"

Beautiful Rain!! (my bold)

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/19/2024 at 2:08 PM, Rain said:

..............................

"Spiritual Progress" requires living a Godly life- and the experience of what happens when you do that- it cannot be a list of steps, it must be one tiny piece of godliness added to who you are, again and again, and after a while one can look back and see how we have changed to be more like Him.

"It is an eternal "dance" together with God"

Or, as a practical matter, to be saved one must confess Jesus is Lord and believe that in your heart, Romans 10:9; then the Spirit comes to indwell the hearts of the faithful.

“No one can say that Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit” 1 Corinthians 12:3